KEF LS50 Amplification - Crown XLI2500?

[Irvrobinson]

I don't care what JA (who or whatever that is)'s subjective opinion was.

JA is John Atkinson, formerly editor of Stereophile magazine. J. Gordon Holt, founder of Stereophile, liked to refer to people by their initials, so he was JGH, and some of the other contributors were referred to that way too. Like the infamous Anthony Cordesman, the think tank analyst who often appeared on cable television, who was AHC. So it became a Stereophile tradition of sorts. For many of us, Stereophile was a contradiction, on the one hand promoting subjective analysis and audiophile bullshit, like cable audibility, and on other hand provided three decades of John Atkinson's measurements and technical analysis. Atkinson's measurements made Stereophile a thinking person's magazine, if you could ignore the nonsensical stuff, but even the nonsensical stuff was oddly fascinating. Like Richard Olsher, a Los Alamos National Labs physicist, was one of the founding fathers (weird uncles?) of the cable differences sect. Like, wouldn't a physicist know better? Reading about a physicist who thought cables were like wines and had audible characters is so bizarre.

 

[Beave]

This is why I shouldn't have wasted my time giving you the courtesy of a response.

So you regret wasting your time giving me a response, but you have now gone back and edited your response at least twice?

Sounds like you don't regret it at all.

 

[Beave]

Everything sounds the same if you don't listen.

What double-blinded, level-matched DAC comparisons have you taken part in?

 

[Beave]

I don't want to get into a back and forth here because I know that many on this forum have already made up their minds on everything audio related. But just one visit to my home and unless their ears are plugged they will hear the difference between say a Meridian Explorer2 DAC and a Benchmark DAC2 HGC.

Test gear? Of course the differences are measurable by modern test gear (even though I don't think we are yet able to measure exactly how we hear, or everything that is important). Just compare JAs measurements of the Audioquest Dragonfly DACs vs the Meridian Explorer2 and even between those two relatively lateral moves there are differences in measurements (bit resolution and bandwidth are two). Then look at his measurements of Benchmark DAC2/ DAC3. There are plenty of differences within the audible band.

Dragonfly Red & Black:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-dragonfly-red-black-usb-da-headphone-amplifiers-measurements

Meridian Explorer:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/meridian-explorer-usb-da-processorheadphone-amplifier-measurements

Meridian Explorer2:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/meridian-explorer2-da-headphone-amplifier-measurements

Benchmark DAC2 HGC:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-dac2-hgc-da-processorheadphone-amplifier-measurements

As far as sound, heck even a Schiit DAC (gotta check the model) sounds better than the DAC in the Parasound P5 pre-amp. I didn't expect that, yet everybody in the room heard it.

I know, people here will say you can't hear the differences in those measurements when it suits them. And for them I feel truly sorry because personally going from a bunch of lateral move DACs in the <$700 range (from the ODAC to the Marantz HD-DAC1 and a slew of others in between) to the Benchmark DAC2 HGC was a revelation. I never would have believed the difference would be that great if I hadn't heard it for myself. I have NEVER heard digital files (very familiar recordings) in my home sound as good as they do with the Benchmark. Simply stunning.

YMMV, people can chose what they want but I think most attentive listeners will easily be able to hear the clear differences between an entry level DAC and something like the Benchmark if they spend some time with both.

Can you tell us which specific measurements show *audible* differences in the links you shared?
I don't want to have to guess at what you think are going to be audibly significant measured differences.

 

[John Parks]

 

[lovinthehd]

View attachment 28844

Talk about being obtuse...

 

[<eargiant]

So you regret wasting your time giving me a response, but you have now gone back and edited your response at least twice?

Sounds like you don't regret it at all.

I edited for clarity and added links to specific measurements within the audible range (which is what you originally asked for) because I thought it may interest someone else in the future.

 

[Beave]

I asked for measurements that would show audible differences.

Which of those measurements do you think show a difference you can hear?

 

[<eargiant]

I asked for measurements that would show audible differences.

Which of those measurements do you think show a difference you can hear?

If those were AVR or amplifier measurements would you still be feigning such a hard time distinguishing the audibly superior product? Enjoy what you own and I will enjoy what I own.

If you'd like to persist with this discussion, set-up a blind test between the Explorer2 and the Benchmark DAC2 HGC somewhere in the NYC tristate area and I will be happy to attend. My only request is that you use the speakers, sub and equipment I am currently using in a similar sized room and allow me to look at and adjust the parametric (which will be constant for both DACs) and also allow me to listen to the FLAC tracks of my choosing that I am very familiar with. I will score 100% between those two DACs because I know them very well. But honestly, will that change anything?

Good day.

 

[Beave]

Once again, I note that you don't list level-matching in all those requirements you have.

It's kinda important if you want to make it a fair comparison.

Two of the very same DAC chips will sound different and will be easily distinguishable if you just adjust the gain stage on the output of one so that it's a little louder than the other.

If you allow me to level-match the two, are you still game for this?

Will you agree to pay for my flight and my hotel if you can't reliably distinguish the two?

 

[Beave]

Also, still waiting for you to tell me which measurements you linked from Stereophile show that there will be audible differences?

 

[<eargiant]

Once again, I note that you don't list level-matching in all those requirements you have.

It's kinda important if you want to make it a fair comparison.

Two of the very same DAC chips will sound different and will be easily distinguishable if you just adjust the gain stain on the output of one so that it's a little louder than the other.

If you allow me to level-match the two, are you still game for this?

Will you agree to pay for my flight and my hotel if you can't reliably distinguish the two?

Of course I level match, that's 101. Good lord- why do you guys think you are smarter than everyone else?

 

[Beave]

How do you do the level-matching? How do you measure the levels and then how do you adjust the level of one or the other?

(I might think I'm smarter than you about DACs because I spent my career as a design engineer working on audio and video DACs and associated circuitry - clocks, power supply filtering, output filters & buffers, etc).

 

[<eargiant]

!!! Really?!? and you're still trying to tell me a Meridian Explorer2 or a Dragonfly Black/Red sounds just like a Benchmark DAC2/DAC3?? Remind me never to hire you. Maybe you need to get out more and listen.

I'll tell you what. Put your money where your mouth is and order a Benchmark DAC2 or DAC3 and set up a listening test any way you want in your own home (hopefully you have a resolving system) and invite several friends of various ages to have a sampling of hearing abilities and training (invite me too) and report back to us. If you don't have one, order a Dragonfly or Explorer2 so that you can compare. You have NOTHING to lose, Benchmark offers a 30 day home trial and Music Direct offers a 60 day full refund.

BTW, I'm not knocking the Explorer2. I owned it and used it for years, but to say it's on the same audible level as the Benchmark DAC2/DAC3 is sheer lunacy.

 

[Beave]

I offered to put my money where my mouth is by coming to New York and helping you do a blinded, level-matched comparison.

Remember?

And if you lost, you'd have to pay my flight and hotel.

Remember?

What's sheer lunacy is that you just keep repeating your claims hoping that at some point we'll just accept what you say and stop questioning you.

Speaking of which, still waiting on some answers:
1. Which of the Stereophile measurements show a difference that would be audible?
2. How do you level-match for your comparisons? How do you measure the levels and then how do you adjust them?

 

[<eargiant]

I offered to put my money where my mouth is by coming to New York and helping you do a blinded, level-matched comparison.

Remember?

And if you lost, you'd have to pay my flight and hotel.

Remember?

What's sheer lunacy is that you just keep repeating your claims hoping that at some point we'll just accept what you say and stop questioning you.

Speaking of which, still waiting on some answers:
1. Which of the Stereophile measurements show a difference that would be audible?
2. How do you level-match for your comparisons? How do you measure the levels and then how do you adjust them?

No, I don't want you to accept anything. That's the point I've brought up a few times but you keep badgering me. As I have said, you can listen to what you want and I will listen to what I want. You seem to be the one that is trying to prove me wrong.

And yes I do "remember" Mr. Condescension, but I'd much rather save you the expense outright. Besides, I'd rather pay to go to listen to your system. Even if I win I won't require you to pay my way. How's that?

 

[Russdawg1]

This is pretty funny cause an argument similar to this just got closed on AVS. But looks like the mods haven’t caught up, so please continue

 

[Beave]

This is pretty funny cause an argument similar to this just got closed on AVS. But looks like the mods haven’t caught up, so please continue

I'm hoping that the mods here aren't nearly as uptight and inconsistent as the mods at AVS.

 

[Beave]

No, I don't want you to accept anything. That's the point I've brought up a few times but you keep badgering me. As I have said, you can listen to what you want and I will listen to what I want. You seem to be the one that is trying to prove me wrong.

And yes I do "remember" Mr. Condescension, but I'd much rather save you the expense outright. Besides, I'd rather pay to go to listen to your system. Even if I lose I won't require you to pay my way. How's that?

Was it condescending when you wrote that you feel sorry for people who can't hear differences in DACs?

 

[<eargiant]

This is pretty funny cause an argument similar to this just got closed on AVS. But looks like the mods haven’t caught up, so please continue

I've been trying to alert the mods but it seems they give this guy a long leash.