JBL 3110/3110A along w/ 3105 Crossover

[Hiker1969]

Curious if anyone would know this.

I am looking to use a 3110 model 800hz XO / 100watt version. I am going to run 2 way at the moment, but the question is regarding 3way as that will be the direction I am going. According to the spec sheets - it wants 8/16ohm LF and 16ohm HF. Okay perfect I have the JBL 2226H along with a 2445J currently. I would be looking down the line to add the 3105 so I can run 3way. Looking at the 3105 from the same spec sheet as the 3110, it shows 8/16LF - 16HF - 16TweeterHF but on the later spec sheet for the 3110A shows the same Impedance specs for the first two but then changes to 16TweeterHF on the 3105. I know the watts are different along with other specs on the 3110, 3110A and both 3105 units however it doesn't have a letter indication for the later 3105 - so trying to make sure I get correct one, as I was getting the 8ohm tweeter 2404H most likely, but would consider the 2405 which has both H and J models. My main concern is getting the correct one without an indication letter like 3105A but I do not see this or is it the 3110 or 3110A playing a factor on the 3105 even though specs are different for that is well. I do see a HF Boost on the 3110A of Min, Med and Max, maybe this is doing something, but doubtful. Just need to be educated a little. If anyone can help me, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for your time in advance!

 

[TLS Guy]

Curious if anyone would know this.

I am looking to use a 3110 model 800hz XO / 100watt version. I am going to run 2 way at the moment, but the question is regarding 3way as that will be the direction I am going. According to the spec sheets - it wants 8/16ohm LF and 16ohm HF. Okay perfect I have the JBL 2226H along with a 2445J currently. I would be looking down the line to add the 3105 so I can run 3way. Looking at the 3105 from the same spec sheet as the 3110, it shows 8/16LF - 16HF - 16TweeterHF but on the later spec sheet for the 3110A shows the same Impedance specs for the first two but then changes to 16TweeterHF on the 3105. I know the watts are different along with other specs on the 3110, 3110A and both 3105 units however it doesn't have a letter indication for the later 3105 - so trying to make sure I get correct one, as I was getting the 8ohm tweeter 2404H most likely, but would consider the 2405 which has both H and J models. My main concern is getting the correct one without an indication letter like 3105A but I do not see this or is it the 3110 or 3110A playing a factor on the 3105 even though specs are different for that is well. I do see a HF Boost on the 3110A of Min, Med and Max, maybe this is doing something, but doubtful. Just need to be educated a little. If anyone can help me, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for your time in advance!

I have barely a clue what you are talking about. That is saying something as I have nearly 70 years experience. I do have a strong suspicion though, that you do not have the first clue what you are doing.

If you are going to ask for help, then you are going to have to provide links to all of the items you have posted about here. So we need details of each crossover and every driver.

It sounds to me that you are out of your depth. A crossover can only be purposed to be mated with the exact drivers it was designed for. Just matching the average impedance will NOT cut it.

Every loudspeaker driver has an impedance curve, acoustic response and sensitivity, among other specifications, Nomenclature like 4, 8 or 16 ohm are only rough approximations. Impedance of drivers varies with frequency. All this is before we get into the Thiele/Small parameters which are unique to every driver. So every driver and every combination requires as specific crossover design, whether active or passive.

The bottom line is that any crossover, either new or vintage can only be used with the specific driver it was designed for.

So far more detailed information is required from you before we can give you any advice at all.

 

[Hiker1969]

I have barely a clue what you are talking about. That is saying something as I have nearly 70 years experience. I do have a strong suspicion though, that you do not have the first clue what you are doing.

If you are going to ask for help, then you are going to have to provide links to all of the items you have posted about here. So we need details of each crossover and every driver.

It sounds to me that you are out of your depth. A crossover can only be purposed to be mated with the exact drivers it was designed for. Just matching the average impedance will NOT cut it.

Every loudspeaker driver has an impedance curve, acoustic response and sensitivity, among other specifications, Nomenclature like 4, 8 or 16 ohm are only rough approximations. Impedance of drivers varies with frequency. All this is before we get into the Thiele/Small parameters which are unique to every driver. So every driver and every combination requires as specific crossover design, whether active or passive.

The bottom line is that any crossover, either new or vintage can only be used with the specific driver it was designed for.

So far more detailed information is required from you before we can give you any advice at all.

I am a little out of my element and that is why I am coming here asking, I never said otherwise. I am currently running them actively and was wanting to go passively. However the 3110 crossover is purpose mated to my drivers according to JBL spec sheet, however the older spec sheet 3110 (not A series) and 3105 does not purpose mate a tweeter. Only the impedance is given which is what brought me to ask. The newer spec sheet of the 3110A / 3105 specifies each driver and gives the diagram. So, I am wanting to buy a 3110 and a 3105, I am unsure how to tell which 3105 is proper to which 3110 or 3110A. Attached is the 1st spec sheet, file is to large to post the 3110A, so I will add that next, I did make a mistake in original post as it should be 2225H but I do have the 2226H as well, but I did not see that listed in the spec sheet.

The Horn I am running is a Eliptrac 400 - was using a 2380A and I did not like.

 

[Hiker1969]

I am a little out of my element and that is why I am coming here asking, I never said otherwise. I am currently running them actively and was wanting to go passively. However the 3110 crossover is purpose mated to my drivers according to JBL spec sheet, however the older spec sheet 3110 (not A series) and 3105 does not purpose mate a tweeter. Only the impedance is given which is what brought me to ask. The newer spec sheet of the 3110A / 3105 specifies each driver and gives the diagram. So, I am wanting to buy a 3110 and a 3105, I am unsure how to tell which 3105 is proper to which 3110 or 3110A. Attached is the 1st spec sheet, file is to large to post the 3110A, so I will add that next, I did make a mistake in original post as it should be 2225H but I do have the 2226H as well, but I did not see that listed in the spec sheet.

The Horn I am running is a Eliptrac 400 - was using a 2380A and I did not like.

tried uploading the 3110A however the file is to large, so here is the link and just look at owners manual pdf
3105, 3110A, 3115A, 3120A, 3160 | JBL Professional Loudspeakers

 

[TLS Guy]

tried uploading the 3110A however the file is to large, so here is the link and just look at owners manual pdf
3105, 3110A, 3115A, 3120A, 3160 | JBL Professional Loudspeakers

 

[TLS Guy]

What specific drivers are you using and with what drivers.

I can tell you that those are very old units. Crossover design has improved enormously since that time. In my view the results using those passive crossover were poor.

I did spec. and install some pro designs back in the day. I always used active solutions for both Altec and JBL drivers, and so did everyone else who know what they were doing.
So what is current set up precisely and what is it you don't like about it? In addition what are you drivers, and what enclosures are they in?

 

[Hiker1969]

What specific drivers are you using and with what drivers.

I can tell you that those are very old units. Crossover design has improved enormously since that time. In my view the results using those passive crossover were poor.

I did spec. and install some pro designs back in the day. I always used active solutions for both Altec and JBL drivers, and so did everyone else who know what they were doing.
So what is current set up precisely and what is it you don't like about it? In addition what are you drivers, and what enclosures are they in?

Thanks again and that was exactly what I was thinking in regards to those older crossovers, but was searching to tame the mid down. Below is how it is set up now.

What I do not like currently possibly that maybe the mid horn is too much for my application or to much in general in home use. I was hoping to tame it down more so and use a tweeter to give some sparkle in the top end.

JBL 2226H woofer or I also have the 2225H woofer - but I favor the 2226
JBL 2445J Mid Horn - totally open to another horn preferably to connect with the 400 below.
I have both JBL 2380A horn and also an Eliptrac 400 wood horn

I had them in 6.5cf vented enclosure similar to the Altec 9812-8A
currently they are sitting in an Altec 816B enclosure but most likely going back to something like I had before and was just wanting to check these cabs out as I came across them lately, they sound good especially in the mid bass, but the horn is more pronounced most likely to losing the bottom end of the other cab.

Gustard R26 R2R Dac
Rotel RC-1550 Pre Amp
2 - Rotel RB-1552 (1 is an MK2 newer model running the LF)
Rane AC22 Crossover

I have considered a Marchand XM-44 with different order filters than just being 4th order only on the rane, but this is where the learning curve comes in and was considering going backwards back to passive. Probably wrong choice like you mentioned.

If money was not an issue, whether this would be best or not, I probably would have bought something like DBX RackPA2, figure out what works best and then replace with the Marchand w/ the needed filters as I do not want anything downstream that is digital with it's own dac as I am super happy with the one that I have for that set up.

 

[Hiker1969]

someone did help me on how to tell the difference, even though this does not seem the route I will take and most likely adjust the active setup. The watts and ohm of that model is stamped on the back side of the dial, 50watts 16ohm being the early unit and 70watts 8ohm being the later unit.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks again and that was exactly what I was thinking in regards to those older crossovers, but was searching to tame the mid down. Below is how it is set up now.

What I do not like currently possibly that maybe the mid horn is too much for my application or to much in general in home use. I was hoping to tame it down more so and use a tweeter to give some sparkle in the top end.

JBL 2226H woofer or I also have the 2225H woofer - but I favor the 2226
JBL 2445J Mid Horn - totally open to another horn preferably to connect with the 400 below.
I have both JBL 2380A horn and also an Eliptrac 400 wood horn

I had them in 6.5cf vented enclosure similar to the Altec 9812-8A
currently they are sitting in an Altec 816B enclosure but most likely going back to something like I had before and was just wanting to check these cabs out as I came across them lately, they sound good especially in the mid bass, but the horn is more pronounced most likely to losing the bottom end of the other cab.

Gustard R26 R2R Dac
Rotel RC-1550 Pre Amp
2 - Rotel RB-1552 (1 is an MK2 newer model running the LF)
Rane AC22 Crossover

I have considered a Marchand XM-44 with different order filters than just being 4th order only on the rane, but this is where the learning curve comes in and was considering going backwards back to passive. Probably wrong choice like you mentioned.

If money was not an issue, whether this would be best or not, I probably would have bought something like DBX RackPA2, figure out what works best and then replace with the Marchand w/ the needed filters as I do not want anything downstream that is digital with it's own dac as I am super happy with the one that I have for that set up.

You have a mess, as I suspected.

First things first. You have that woofer in the wrong box. It is way too big.

All drivers with tuned drivers have to have a box of precise dimensions and precise port dimension. Back in the day, prior to the Thiele/Small parameters we did not know that. Your driver needs a box size of 4 cu.ft. I will have to model it to find the port dimensions.

The next issue is that your Rane Crossover is not a good crossover for those drivers. The slopes are too steep.

The optimal crossover for that type of retro speaker is the Shure SR 106. They were specifically designed for the JBL and Altec drivers of the day.

The correct crossover point is 900 or 1200 Hz.

It so happens that I have a number of those units, you will need two. I modify them and use them for part of my active speakers. I do have a number of those units. I would be prepared to make two of them available to you at a reasonable price. I would instrument test them before shipping.

So you just need a two way with the right box, tuning and crossovers, and your system will be optimized.

 

[Hiker1969]

Thanks again and that was exactly what I was thinking in regards to those older crossovers, but was searching to tame the mid down. Below is how it is set up now.

What I do not like currently possibly that maybe the mid horn is too much for my application or to much in general in home use. I was hoping to tame it down more so and use a tweeter to give some sparkle in the top end.

JBL 2226H woofer or I also have the 2225H woofer - but I favor the 2226
JBL 2445J Mid Horn - totally open to another horn preferably to connect with the 400 below.
I have both JBL 2380A horn and also an Eliptrac 400 wood horn

I had them in 6.5cf vented enclosure similar to the Altec 9812-8A
currently they are sitting in an Altec 816B enclosure but most likely going back to something like I had before and was just wanting to check these cabs out as I came across them lately, they sound good especially in the mid bass, but the horn is more pronounced most likely to losing the bottom end of the other cab.

Gustard R26 R2R Dac
Rotel RC-1550 Pre Amp
2 - Rotel RB-1552 (1 is an MK2 newer model running the LF)
Rane AC22 Crossover

I have considered a Marchand XM-44 with different order filters than just being 4th order only on the rane, but this is where the learning curve comes in and was considering going backwards back to passive. Probably wrong choice like you mentioned.

If money was not an issue, whether this would be best or not, I probably would have bought something like DBX RackPA2, figure out what works best and then replace with the Marchand w/ the needed filters as I do not want anything downstream that is digital with it's own dac as I am super happy with the one that I have for that set up.

You have a mess, as I suspected.

First things first. You have that woofer in the wrong box. It is way too big.

All drivers with tuned drivers have to have a box of precise dimensions and precise port dimension. Back in the day, prior to the Thiele/Small parameters we did not know that. Your driver needs a box size of 4 cu.ft. I will have to model it to find the port dimensions.

The next issue is that your Rane Crossover is not a good crossover for those drivers. The slopes are too steep.

The optimal crossover for that type of retro speaker is the Shure SR 106. They were specifically designed for the JBL and Altec drivers of the day.

The correct crossover point is 900 or 1200 Hz.

It so happens that I have a number of those units, you will need two. I modify them and use them for part of my active speakers. I do have a number of those units. I would be prepared to make two of them available to you at a reasonable price. I would instrument test them before shipping.

So you just need a two way with the right box, tuning and crossovers, and your system will be optimized.

These weren't my main speakers, this was just being bored coming up with different things with stuff I have acquired thru the years or stumble upon. Thanks for the info as well, using the rane the best sound I got in either box was between 1000 and 1200 so you are spot on, but I had a feeling that the rane was to steep as well. I assume since the first box was 6.5 I felt it was loose maybe to muddy sounding and that moving down to what you said had it been a 4cf it would have sound a lot more correct. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Shure SR106 only adjustable 3 ways - 500hz / 800hz / 2600hz.

 

[TLS Guy]

These weren't my main speakers, this was just being bored coming up with different things with stuff I have acquired thru the years or stumble upon. Thanks for the info as well, using the rane the best sound I got in either box was between 1000 and 1200 so you are spot on, but I had a feeling that the rane was to steep as well. I assume since the first box was 6.5 I felt it was loose maybe to muddy sounding and that moving down to what you said had it been a 4cf it would have sound a lot more correct. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Shure SR106 only adjustable 3 ways - 500hz / 800hz / 2600hz.

That is true, but it is easy to mod them. 800 Hz would probably work well, but I can easily mod one to be a different crossover range. So if you want the offer stands, I can let you have a pair for $120.00 if you want with the crossover ranges you want.

I can model the driver and find the optimal box and port. You can do the Gilbert Briggs trick of reducing cabinet volume with dry builder's sand. Make sure it is dry though. He was the founder of Wharfedale, and mentored Raymond Cooke who founded KEF. GAB as he was known, was one of the nicest guys you could ever meet, and an outstanding pianist.

So I can model the driver, and with a two way, the right box, port and the right crossovers you will have a classic. You don't need to mess with a tweeter. You would need a horn loaded one anyway.

You will have classic cinema sound.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have been pondering your problem.

Basically you are correct, that system does need to be three way and not two, and needs tri-amping.

I have modelled that woofer, and actually it is a typical pro woofer with high sensitivity and low Qts. So it has little bass output unless the low end is pulled up with horn loading. But that would be too large an enclosure domestically.

I have modelled your 2226H driver, and it has little bass. The optimum enclosure size is actually 2.5 cu.ft. A pdf. of the model is attached.

So it needs a good sub crossed in at 100 Hz. This is pretty typical for pro drivers like that.

You horn is a midrange horn and needs crossing over to an HF horn at 6KHz.

This horn would do the trick.

You would have to pick a JBL compression driver for it.

So you would need another two channel power amp for the HF section. 50 to 100 watts per channel would be adequate.

After doing the design, 800 Hz is actually the optimal crossover point for the 2226H drivers. So a pair of Shure SR 106 crossover would be ideal and have ideal slopes for the drivers you have.

Then you could use the high pass section of your Rane unit for the HF horns. Those mid horns roll off ideally at 6KHz so, you don't need to roll them off.

I gather this is not your high end system, but it could be. You already have most of the ingredients for a high performing reference system. So, if you are up to it, it would be a highly worthwhile endeavor.

 

[Hiker1969]

Intersting, I would never guess that small of a cabinet. I have seen the 4pi builds and they were pretty small to around 3cf, but I had mine in a larger cab and it sounded pretty decent. I have also heard them along with some that came with 2225, tall set up, but sounded nice. Anyways, I wasn't looking for super bass with them, I have subs for that, I wanted a crisp fast mid bass, which is what made me throw them in those 816 cabs just to see and it was bad, just the 2445 HF drivers were to much on that Rane Crossover which is why I was trying to understand some of the old JBL crossovers. And like you said, the Rane 4th order is not the right choice for that driver in my set up or if at all. But yes I am going to stay with Active Crossovers and figure it out. I am not ready to jump on the Shure's but I really appreciate the offer and the spec sheet was over and above, so a big thank you. A friend is going to let me goof around with a Pioneer SF-850 crossover in the meantime, it has a variable 1st, 2nd and 3rd order for both cut and pass. Either way it will be something to learn with at the very least. Back to your model, what program were you using to model the woofer? I was looking at BassBox Pro the other day as someone else mentioned it to me.

As for Tri-amping. What is your thoughts on selling off one of my Rotel RC-1552 and going much older with some refurbed Dynaco Stereo 120, 2 of them for half the cost of me selling the Rotel, or is that just a backwards move and just stay two way until the day I can afford another rotel.

 

[TLS Guy]

Intersting, I would never guess that small of a cabinet. I have seen the 4pi builds and they were pretty small to around 3cf, but I had mine in a larger cab and it sounded pretty decent. I have also heard them along with some that came with 2225, tall set up, but sounded nice. Anyways, I wasn't looking for super bass with them, I have subs for that, I wanted a crisp fast mid bass, which is what made me throw them in those 816 cabs just to see and it was bad, just the 2445 HF drivers were to much on that Rane Crossover which is why I was trying to understand some of the old JBL crossovers. And like you said, the Rane 4th order is not the right choice for that driver in my set up or if at all. But yes I am going to stay with Active Crossovers and figure it out. I am not ready to jump on the Shure's but I really appreciate the offer and the spec sheet was over and above, so a big thank you. A friend is going to let me goof around with a Pioneer SF-850 crossover in the meantime, it has a variable 1st, 2nd and 3rd order for both cut and pass. Either way it will be something to learn with at the very least. Back to your model, what program were you using to model the woofer? I was looking at BassBox Pro the other day as someone else mentioned it to me.

As for Tri-amping. What is your thoughts on selling off one of my Rotel RC-1552 and going much older with some refurbed Dynaco Stereo 120, 2 of them for half the cost of me selling the Rotel, or is that just a backwards move and just stay two way until the day I can afford another rotel.

The program was Bass Box Pro. Your bass driver is really designed for back horn loading by the parameters. However high sensitivity low Q drivers never have deep bass. You can have high sensitivity or bass extension, but not both.

Those speakers will sound much better with the correct box and porting. The bass will be much better quality. As I said, If you want, you can add sand to get the correct volume and add the right port, or you can build the correct box. One thing you can not do is throw a woofer in any box you feel like.

Dynaco amps now need the restorers hand before being put back into service.

 

[Hiker1969]

So in regards to that. Using the model you have in the 2.5, can you help me understand why most of these drivers were in 5 or so cf boxes in the JBL Pro Cinema line. Also when it says Vas 175.1 (6.2ft) - what does this mean, I thought it meant the box size you place it in which is why I originally put it in that Altec 9812 8A becasue it was around that number. I think 6.5.. As always thanks for your explanations.

 

[TLS Guy]

So in regards to that. Using the model you have in the 2.5, can you help me understand why most of these drivers were in 5 or so cf boxes in the JBL Pro Cinema line. Also when it says Vas 175.1 (6.2ft) - what does this mean, I thought it meant the box size you place it in which is why I originally put it in that Altec 9812 8A becasue it was around that number. I think 6.5.. As always thanks for your explanations.

The Vas. is the volume of air that has the same compliance as the suspension of the driver. It is NOT the enclosure volume. I played with various volumes for that driver, but Bass Box Pro has it right. My model is correct.

 

[Hiker1969]

Thanks!!! so it says 1 round port, can you explain how to read that, trying to understand how to determine the size?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks!!! so it says 1 round port, can you explain how to read that, trying to understand how to determine the size?

It means that the port has an internal diameter of 6". is 11.7" long and is flared at both ends.

When you calculate port dimensions, you need to look at the vent air velocity at maximum driver output. It needs to be less than 20 meters/sec, or there will be a chuffing port noise. If you look at my model and look at the vent air velocity, you can see that the design specs. the correct port.

This port is 6" diameter and comes 17" long, so you would need to cut it so that the length is 11 3/4" inch from outer flare end to outer flare end.

 

[Hiker1969]

You're awesome! Thanks for the link. On the image of the box it does not show where I can place the port or does that not matter?

 

[TLS Guy]

You're awesome! Thanks for the link. On the image of the box it does not show where I can place the port or does that not matter?

You can place it front or back. I tend to prefer front if there is room.