It's Mueller Time!

[GO-NAD!]

https://consortiumnews.com/2019/06/17/fbi-never-saw-crowdstrike-unredacted-or-final-report-on-alleged-russian-hacking-because-none-was-produced/

ttps://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-16/us-governments-entire-russia-dnc-hacking-narrative-based-redacted-draft-crowdstrike

Believe it or not, I try to keep an open mind about such matters. The Consortiumnews piece is interesting. So, I checked into the reliability of the website: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/consortium-news/...looks promising.

I looked further afield. From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections:

"Intelligence analysis of attack

In June and July 2016, cybersecurity experts and firms, including CrowdStrike,[97] Fidelis, FireEye,[98] Mandiant, SecureWorks,[99] Symantec[98] and ThreatConnect, stated the DNC email leaks were part of a series of cyberattacks on the DNC committed by two Russian intelligence groups, called Fancy Bear and Cozy Bear,[100][101] also known respectively as APT28 and APT29 / The Dukes.[102][103][97][104] ThreatConnect also noted possible links between the DC Leaks project and Russian intelligence operations because of a similarity with Fancy Bear attack patterns.[105] SecureWorks added that the actor group was operating from Russia on behalf of the Russian government.[106][107] de Volkskrant later reported that Dutch intelligence agency AIVD had penetrated the Russian hacking group Cozy Bear in 2014 and in 2015 observed them hack the DNC in real time, as well as capturing the images of the hackers via a security camera in their workspace.[108][109] American, British, and Dutch intelligence services had also observed stolen DNC emails on Russian military intelligence networks.[110]"

So, regardless of what evidence the FBI relied upon, it wasn't just Crowdstrike that concluded Russia was behind the hacking.

Then, I looked into the author of the article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_McGovern.

Not only does he work for Consortium, he also works for RT and Sputnik News - known mouthpieces for the Kremlin.

Also:
"Russian interference in the 2016 election

McGovern holds a position that the theft of the DNC emails was an inside job, and not the work of Russian agents (contrary to the findings published by the US intelligence community). In his view, the metadata in the files released by Guccifer 2.0 (whom the US intelligence community identifies as a Russian military intelligence operation) has been manipulated to show that the documents came from Russia, where in fact according to this theory they originated from a computer in the Eastern United States. McGovern subsequently released a VIPS report in support of his theory. Many of the VIPS members however, did not sign the report and expressed a view that the inside job theory itself is a disinformation campaign run by a pro-Kremlin hacker Tim Leonard[33]."

I would draw your attention to the last sentence.

So, while plausible, I'm not convinced at this time, that the Russians weren't responsible.

 

[markw]

Your research is commendable but you seem to ignore the facts. While not the only cause of the investigation it was another factor into it's origin. That it was not vetted makes it invalid as a source. That, and the steele dossier (which was not vetted either) a work of fiction, commissioned by and paid for by the DNC to specifically smear Trump also shows this whole thing to be a joke. an expensive and damaging joke. If anything, I think Comey, among others, will have a lot of splainin' to do. I believe Barr is looking into that even as we speak.

Basically, this whole thing boils down to an attempted coup d'etat staged by people in the government who realize that Trump isn't a Washington insider who doesn't play their corrupt games and won't be controlled by them.

While nobody doubts the Russians stuck their nose into our elections (Hell, obama knew it and allowed it to continue). after all is said and done, it was proven that Trump had no hand in it it and did nothing improper.

Now, i know a lot of people out there are having problems accepting that and refuse to believe it, and even resent that, but it's time they put on their big girl panties and learn to live with it. While this might be good theater for foreigners watching us, a lot of the silent majority is getting tired of seeing our representatives spending all their time trying to impede, or remove, our president rather than working with him to make this a better country. We're literally being invaded from the south and congress is just ignoring it and blaming Trump for it.

 

[highfigh]

Yes, much of the media tends towards the liberal side of the spectrum, although there's still plenty of conservative leaning media.

Can you tell me what you mean by "hard left"? To me, hard left would be personified by the Maduro regime... just a few steps away from outright communism.

And yes, much of the detention infrastructure was brought in during the Clinton administration, which carried on into the Obama years, no argument. But, detentions have skyrocketed under Trump...and not due to an increase in migrants crossing the border. I certainly don't have an answer to the issue, but I don't think this helps anybody.

I never said the US wasn't doing anything about pollution, but withdrawing from the Paris Accord does not send a good message. And, POTUS just eased coal-fired plant regulations, although that's probably not going to revive coal mining.

I believe the 90% figure you stated actually refers to black-on-black homicides, which is not "90% of the murders". Over 80% of white victims are killed by other whites, so what have we proved...other than the fact that white people kill "brown" people at a higher rate than the reverse. There may be higher crime rates amongst the black populace, but much of that can be traced to the socio-economic circumstances that many black people find themselves in. Make no mistake, there are similar issues in Canada - maybe not to the same degree that you find in the US, but black people have a legitimate beef with us as nations (There is a BLM movement here as well).

I'm not sure what it would be called in the US, but up here there is a police practice called "carding" or street check". It involves officers who randomly stop people and ask questions when they're looking into suspicious activity, gathering general information in the community, or investigating crimes they know or suspect might have happened. It's been controversial for a few years now. A recent study in my area concluded that a black person is 13 times more likely to be stopped than a white person.

Yes, #Metoo is not just an American problem. I didn't mean to imply that it is. I'm a bit confused by this issue. After many years of boys being raised to treat women more respectfully, why is this still a thing? Is it a backlash against womens' rights? Or, are women more willing to report harassment and assaults now? Regardless, I wish men would grow the hell up.

'Hard Left' is relative to the other party and people. AOC, Pelosi, Feinstein, Sanders and many others are what can easily be considered 'hard Left'- they want to do everything by legislation and almost never by holding people accountable for their own actions, often to the point of hypocricy. They want us all to have, be and do what THEY want, not for us to make our own decisions and they like to use class warfare to get what they want, even though many of them ARE in the class they tell us to hate. They tell us they understand, but they can't- they're so insulated from real life it's impossible, even if it's a distant memory. Someone on a local radio show said "I have a hard time listening to billionaires telling millionaires what the Middle class needs"- that was one of the most painfully accurate comments I have ever heard.

The unfortunate part of having as much freedom as we do is the fact that so many people make bad decisions but if everything is illegal or restricted, nobody will have time to live a normal life because we'll have to read the list of what we can't do. True Conservatives believe that the government should not intrude on every aspect of our lives and that people should govern their own actions but again, Human Nature rears its ugly head.

WRT detentions- last year, about 90K/month crossed the border and this year, it's closer to 400K.

The 90% figure was supposed to make the point that a movement like BLM is really throwing the "Blacks killed by cops" problem in the face of people who would never argue with it. Blacks and Whites are generally living peacefully, but each is responsible for the deaths of those like them- in places like Milwaukee, where I am, Blacks mainly live in a specific area and, IMO, it's mainly because of Milwaukee government's housing policies and the practice of making some parts of the city attractive while totally neglecting others. Murders are personal and most victims know their killer, so it's rare that this happens inter-racially here. However, the Milwaukee Public School system has a lot to answer for in this- the chronic truancy and dropout rates are extremely high while reading & Math fluency are extremely low- makes it awfully hard to get a good job, even if employers will train anyone with a pulse.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Race_and_ethnicity_2010-_Milwaukee_(5559895075).png

I first heard that more than 10% of all US women have been a victim of some kind of sexual attack, whether it's rape, abuse, harassment, etc in about 2000, from someone who had been abused as a child. Then, I noticed that I knew more women who admitted this- I think that a lot of this has to do with women being more willing to talk about it and admit it, or even accuse those who did it to them. "It just wasn't something nice people talked about", if you know what I mean. When I saw who was posting #MeToo on Facebook, I was pissed off because I knew more than I had expected.

Here, 'carding' or 'street check' isn't looked at favorably because Blacks say they're targeted more than Whites. Well, I have talked to some Cops about it, (mainly the last Police Chief of the area where I live) and was told that when they pull someone over, it's because the camera on the patrol cars saw license plates that had been flagged for some reason- they were expired, missing, didn't match the car or they were owned by someone with at least one warrant. Walking on the street, they don't just ask for ID- that would not be seen favorably and if it's done in a way that specifically targets one ethnic group, it could easily be seen as unconstitutional (4th and possibly, 6th Amenment violation).

 

[highfigh]

Insurance companies aren't the ONLY reason that our healthcare prices are high. It's hospitals/clinics/doctors that work with insurance on "agreed" pricing for specific procedures that make the price high. Each hospital charges a specific amount for a specific procedure. If you let them know you don't have insurance and are paying out of pocked a lot of them will work with you on pricing and payment plans. They also work with insurance companies to "discount" the price for these procedures. What that basically means that the hospitals have an artificially inflated price for everything and we get charged that price. The insurance steps in and pays it, but at a discount. If we don't have insurance and we don't work with hospitals on pricing or payment plans (assuming they all actually do this) then we get charged insane amounts for things.

This is why tons of people go TO Mexico to have surgeries. Same quality of medical care, but SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper prices. We've let the insurance companies, for-profit hospitals, and pharma companies price us out of our normal ability to afford medical care WITHOUT insurance. Premiums are only going up too.

I pay damn close to $1k per month for my family's insurance (wife doesn't work) and I've considered dropping it for something cheaper, but when we had our last kid, we got a $65k bill from the hospital. Obviously our insurance paid most of it, but how would anyone be able to pay that back in a reasonable amount of time? They can't. Our out of pocket was still $3k. God forbid anything be out of network and that bill would have been $10k or more.

My mother in-law may have to have back and neck surgery and she got a quote for almost $300k. That's nuts.

These companies are making money hand over fist on our need to be healthy and not die of a broken arm. I know people are against socialism and the like, but how are we all OK with this?

You partially contradict yourself WRT insurance companies- the care givers charge higher than needed because they know the insurers will pay less- take the insurers out of the equation and we can get the real price. The care givers also have to deal with people who have no money to pay and one example of what happens when the uninsured use the ER as their primary care is the hospital that was very close to where I live- it closed. I went there after I narfed my index finger with a router bit and for cutting off a small piece of skin, the bill showed '$585- out-patient surgery'. The Dr was involved for about 30 seconds.

We AREN'T OK with this, but not enough look at it from the POV that the insurers are screwing us with the blessing of the US government. Obamacare (glad to see that it's his tainted legacy) was never going to work and it has lived down to expectations. This is what happens when people elect someone for what they hope the candidate will do. The ACA was doomed to fail from the beginning.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Your research is commendable but you seem to ignore the facts. While not the only cause of the investigation it was another factor into it's origin. That it was not vetted makes it invalid as a source. That, and the steele dossier (which was not vetted either) a work of fiction, commissioned by and paid for by the DNC to specifically smear Trump also shows this whole thing to be a joke. an expensive and damaging joke. If anything, I think Comey, among others, will have a lot of splainin' to do. I believe Barr is looking into that even as we speak.

Basically, this whole thing boils down to an attempted coup d'etat staged by people in the government who realize that Trump isn't a Washington insider who doesn't play their corrupt games and won't be controlled by them.

While nobody doubts the Russians stuck their nose into our elections (Hell, obama knew it and allowed it to continue). after all is said and done, it was proven that Trump had no hand in it it and did nothing improper.

Now, i know a lot of people out there are having problems accepting that and refuse to believe it, and even resent that, but it's time they put on their big girl panties and learn to live with it. While this might be good theater for foreigners watching us, a lot of the silent majority is getting tired of seeing our representatives spending all their time trying to impede, or remove, our president rather than working with him to make this a better country. We're literally being invaded from the south and congress is just ignoring it and blaming Trump for it.

I'm not ignoring the facts - there's a mountain of evidence pointing at the Russians and as Mueller stated, collusion was NOT disproven, it's just not iron-clad. Some allegations contained in the Steele dossier have been corroborated, some unconfirmed and one was rejected by the Mueller Report. That doesn't make it any more a "work of fiction" than McGovern's piece.

Speaking about this with friends many months ago, I predicted that all the efforts to have Trump removed from office would lead to accusations from the right that they amounted to a "coup d'état" and you have now confirmed my prediction, thank-you. I also said that it probably wasn't worth the effort, because they would end up putting Pence into office, which would accomplish precisely...what?

I suppose we will have to wait for the "investigation of the investigators" to see how this all pans out.

If the administration has nothing to hide, they have a funny way of showing it. No release of income tax returns and little to no cooperation with investigators - never mind outright obstruction - certainly indicate otherwise.

Trumps inability to maintain a staff - his administration is littered with firings, quittings and jailings -
and his pattern of venality, mendacity and avarice, before he was even elected, disqualify him for office. But, the electorate decided otherwise. Meh.

I hope you enjoy posting your silly memes, because they have no effect. You're just wasting electrons when you post them.

 

[GO-NAD!]

'Hard Left' is relative to the other party and people. AOC, Pelosi, Feinstein, Sanders and many others are what can easily be considered 'hard Left'- they want to do everything by legislation and almost never by holding people accountable for their own actions, often to the point of hypocricy. They want us all to have, be and do what THEY want, not for us to make our own decisions and they like to use class warfare to get what they want, even though many of them ARE in the class they tell us to hate. They tell us they understand, but they can't- they're so insulated from real life it's impossible, even if it's a distant memory. Someone on a local radio show said "I have a hard time listening to billionaires telling millionaires what the Middle class needs"- that was one of the most painfully accurate comments I have ever heard.

The unfortunate part of having as much freedom as we do is the fact that so many people make bad decisions but if everything is illegal or restricted, nobody will have time to live a normal life because we'll have to read the list of what we can't do. True Conservatives believe that the government should not intrude on every aspect of our lives and that people should govern their own actions but again, Human Nature rears its ugly head.

WRT detentions- last year, about 90K/month crossed the border and this year, it's closer to 400K.

The 90% figure was supposed to make the point that a movement like BLM is really throwing the "Blacks killed by cops" problem in the face of people who would never argue with it. Blacks and Whites are generally living peacefully, but each is responsible for the deaths of those like them- in places like Milwaukee, where I am, Blacks mainly live in a specific area and, IMO, it's mainly because of Milwaukee government's housing policies and the practice of making some parts of the city attractive while totally neglecting others. Murders are personal and most victims know their killer, so it's rare that this happens inter-racially here. However, the Milwaukee Public School system has a lot to answer for in this- the chronic truancy and dropout rates are extremely high while reading & Math fluency are extremely low- makes it awfully hard to get a good job, even if employers will train anyone with a pulse.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Race_and_ethnicity_2010-_Milwaukee_(5559895075).png

I first heard that more than 10% of all US women have been a victim of some kind of sexual attack, whether it's rape, abuse, harassment, etc in about 2000, from someone who had been abused as a child. Then, I noticed that I knew more women who admitted this- I think that a lot of this has to do with women being more willing to talk about it and admit it, or even accuse those who did it to them. "It just wasn't something nice people talked about", if you know what I mean. When I saw who was posting #MeToo on Facebook, I was pissed off because I knew more than I had expected.

Here, 'carding' or 'street check' isn't looked at favorably because Blacks say they're targeted more than Whites. Well, I have talked to some Cops about it, (mainly the last Police Chief of the area where I live) and was told that when they pull someone over, it's because the camera on the patrol cars saw license plates that had been flagged for some reason- they were expired, missing, didn't match the car or they were owned by someone with at least one warrant. Walking on the street, they don't just ask for ID- that would not be seen favorably and if it's done in a way that specifically targets one ethnic group, it could easily be seen as unconstitutional (4th and possibly, 6th Amenment violation).

I guess you and I have different definitions of "hard left". And, your description of the Dems you listed is littered with hard right hyperbole. We just aren't going to agree on this, but that's OK. If everyone thought the same way, it would be a very boring existence.

You should have been more clear up front about the 90% figure. Regardless, it doesn't say anything about the disproportional number of black people shot by the police. And, no - to address a previous statement you made - I certainly won't accuse you of being racist. But, you and I don't live in the skin of a black person and we don't have the right to tell them they have no justification for being resentful of the police and the white population at large. The trauma of slavery, Jim Crow, segregation, etc does not just disappear with the enactment of new laws. It doesn't wipe the slate clean and much of what some might call - for lack of a better word - 'deficiencies' in the black population are legacies of those eras. Trauma gets handed down from generation to generation.

We face a similar situation with the Indigenous people of Canada. Much of the socio-economic conditions you describe could be applied to them here. But, that's a situation of our making, not theirs. We have much to answer for and work to do on that front.

 

[markw]

IT is a coup.attempt. You just don't want to see it. Obama has many "agents" still in the government and, slowly but surely, they are coming to light.

No, Trump had nothing to do with the Russians. After the mule's two year masturbation that couldn't pin a thing on Trump one would think y'all would finally give up that wet dream.

To put is simply, Trump didn't do poop worth bothering about.

If you want corruption you need to look to the previous administration but, unlike now, the MSM did their best to hide as much as they could. Now, if they catch Trump picking his nose, it's all over the front page.

If anything, what they are trying to hang on Tump is small beans compared to what the obama administration swept under the rug..

If anyone, they should be looking into the actions of obama's federal appointees like Lynch, Holder and the infamous hillary herself. What did Bill Clinton and Lynch talk about in that airplane? Do you really believe they were talking about their grandchildren? I still want to know where those emails are and why Comey dismissed her charges as "she didn't mean any harm"? That's his response to her making her emails vulnerable to spying?

https://www.dailywire.com/news/48582/curl-biden-says-not-one-single-hint-scandal-during-joseph-curl?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro

And, whatever happened to The Clinton Foundation?

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/clinton-foundation-donations/?fbclid=IwAR2YUo04EIC1DWmMKRF67FANn35CpyP8jBt4RTUB_Dd3UMC1RI0EbdLgtSo

And, I really want a list of names of the congressmen who paid off their sex partners from taxpayer money.

For that matter, how about Biden's son inking a 1.5 trillion dollar deal between his company and a government owned chinese bank when he visited there with his daddy when daddy went there on Air Force 1 (or 2, dunno) on official government business in 2013? Nobody is curious about that?

Yeah, you guys are barking up the wrong tree and are too deluded to realize it. If you think the main stream media is telling you everything, I've got a bridge to sell ya.

 

[panteragstk]

You partially contradict yourself WRT insurance companies- the care givers charge higher than needed because they know the insurers will pay less- take the insurers out of the equation and we can get the real price. The care givers also have to deal with people who have no money to pay and one example of what happens when the uninsured use the ER as their primary care is the hospital that was very close to where I live- it closed. I went there after I narfed my index finger with a router bit and for cutting off a small piece of skin, the bill showed '$585- out-patient surgery'. The Dr was involved for about 30 seconds.

We AREN'T OK with this, but not enough look at it from the POV that the insurers are screwing us with the blessing of the US government. Obamacare (glad to see that it's his tainted legacy) was never going to work and it has lived down to expectations. This is what happens when people elect someone for what they hope the candidate will do. The ACA was doomed to fail from the beginning.

True. My partial contradiction is basically that the hospital is going to send you a bill based off their over inflated pricing, but I would imagine it's somewhat similar to going to a body shop to get dents out of your car. The first thing they ask is if the estimate is for you, or your insurance. The price will be quite different based on that answer. I don't see hospitals doing the same, but they might. I've never personally been in that situation. The only time was when we didn't have insurance for one kid because of some error a simple doctor visit with vaccines cost almost $1k. That same visit with insurance was our co-pay. $40 IIRC. No wiggle room on price.

 

[GO-NAD!]

You partially contradict yourself WRT insurance companies- the care givers charge higher than needed because they know the insurers will pay less- take the insurers out of the equation and we can get the real price. The care givers also have to deal with people who have no money to pay and one example of what happens when the uninsured use the ER as their primary care is the hospital that was very close to where I live- it closed. I went there after I narfed my index finger with a router bit and for cutting off a small piece of skin, the bill showed '$585- out-patient surgery'. The Dr was involved for about 30 seconds.

We AREN'T OK with this, but not enough look at it from the POV that the insurers are screwing us with the blessing of the US government. Obamacare (glad to see that it's his tainted legacy) was never going to work and it has lived down to expectations. This is what happens when people elect someone for what they hope the candidate will do. The ACA was doomed to fail from the beginning.

From here, the ACA looked like an attempt to get universal coverage without it being universal medicare and ended up being neither fish nor fowl. Under a universal health care system, those uninsured turning up at the ER wouldn't be a thing anymore. There would be no jiggery pokery with the bill hinging on whether you or the insurance company is paying.

You had a fight with a router? What a coincidence! I had a similar encounter back in January - took the nail off my left middle finger. Went to a nearby health centre (not a full-scale hospital) to have it looked at - they were up to their eyeballs, as it was flu season and the ER was full of happy-go-pukey people. When I finally saw the doc, she said there was little beyond bandaging they could do with it, as it couldn't be stitched. She asked when I had my last tetanus shot. "Oh, about five years ago, after I had my last woodworking accident." She laughed (her dad did woodwork, too). Then she said, you really should go downtown to the hospital to have it x-rayed, in case there's bone chips. The clinic closed at midnight, which was rapidly approaching, so off we went. Got the x-ray done - all clear, but the doc there said it was 50/50 as to whether the nail would grow back. Left the hospital all bandaged up.

Grand total $: nothing. I understand that it isn't free, but if you need care in this country, you WILL get it. It's not problem-free. Wait times for certain procedures are longer than they should be. And, in many areas, there are family doctor shortages. That's a legacy of micromanaging the output of medical schools, primarily, from trying to predict doctor requirements years down the road and being severely wrong.

My nail is, in fact, growing back - but I don't think I'll ever be a hand model...

 

[GO-NAD!]

@highfigh here's one thing that is bothering me about the left, if you want to know:
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/06/green-new-deal-may-be-more-popular-carbon-tax/592201/

I'm not against the GND, although, as I said, it could serve as an aspirational food-for-thought document, not an end in itself. However, it should NOT be adopted instead of a carbon tax. Conservatives really should get on board with the carbon tax idea. As they are wont to say, "nothing is free". Negatively impacting our climate shouldn't be cost-free either. A carbon tax allows CO2 emitters to determine their own best methods for reducing their carbon footprint.

 

[highfigh]

@highfigh here's one thing that is bothering me about the left, if you want to know:
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/06/green-new-deal-may-be-more-popular-carbon-tax/592201/

I'm not against the GND, although, as I said, it could serve as an aspirational food-for-thought document, not an end in itself. However, it should NOT be adopted instead of a carbon tax. Conservatives really should get on board with the carbon tax idea. As they are wont to say, "nothing is free". Negatively impacting our climate shouldn't be cost-free either. A carbon tax allows CO2 emitters to determine their own best methods for reducing their carbon footprint.

And the rest of the world does what? Much of it isn't close to being 'developed' and they use whatever they can get but those countries need to get their heads in the game- they can't just continue to pollute and kill those downwind or downstream and get away with it. China may finally be getting the hint- the people are dying and it's impossible to see in many cities. I know some countries are being responsible, but the US is, too. We use far less coal than before, are converting power plants to gas, car emissions are lower than ever and our water is much cleaner, in many places. Trump said he would reopen coal mines to get a reaction, not because he could do that.

WRT the Green New Deal- "The organization’s co-founder, Varshini Prakash describes it as “an umbrella term for a set of policies and programs that will rapidly decarbonize our economy, get all of us off of fossil fuels and work to stop the climate crisis in the next 10 to 12 years.”

How is it possible to be sure of the effects when scientists have said that we were heading toward an Ice Age only 30-ish years ago? Then, the average temperature increased and they decided that we were all going to die in only a few years because of drought, famine, etc brought on by the heat. Scientists work with averages and anomalies- it would be impossible to sample the Earth and sky accurately enough because it's so dynamic. I'm not saying humans don't affect the climate, but the effects of other natural events can't be ignored. 7Billion people and lots of land animals give off a bunch of heat every day because of what they eat and do.

I don't see AOC's version going far- anyone who proposes 70% tax on the wealthy had better show some damn good reasons for it. She has said that she wants to end dependence on fossil fuels in a very short time- I really don't think she understands much, if any science behind why fossil fuels have lasted so long- their energy density is hard to beat. If the end of using these fuels is mandated, commerce, transportation and industry will grind to a halt because it's impossible to make up the difference with wind, solar and water power without covering huge acreage and causing damage to waterways- in fact, many dams have been removed in recent years..

 

[highfigh]

True. My partial contradiction is basically that the hospital is going to send you a bill based off their over inflated pricing, but I would imagine it's somewhat similar to going to a body shop to get dents out of your car. The first thing they ask is if the estimate is for you, or your insurance. The price will be quite different based on that answer. I don't see hospitals doing the same, but they might. I've never personally been in that situation. The only time was when we didn't have insurance for one kid because of some error a simple doctor visit with vaccines cost almost $1k. That same visit with insurance was our co-pay. $40 IIRC. No wiggle room on price.

Can't ask for the discount after the work is done and the bill has come out- ask how much if paying by case often gets a better price. I know someone who went in because of cardiac problems and he didn't have insurance or the money to pay for the multi-bypass and replaced valve- that hospital has funds and endowments for people like him and I have heard many do, but if everyone knows, they'll be depleted very soon.

 

[highfigh]

@highfigh here's one thing that is bothering me about the left, if you want to know:
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/06/green-new-deal-may-be-more-popular-carbon-tax/592201/

I'm not against the GND, although, as I said, it could serve as an aspirational food-for-thought document, not an end in itself. However, it should NOT be adopted instead of a carbon tax. Conservatives really should get on board with the carbon tax idea. As they are wont to say, "nothing is free". Negatively impacting our climate shouldn't be cost-free either. A carbon tax allows CO2 emitters to determine their own best methods for reducing their carbon footprint.

You should look into how much less pollution the US and other countries produce.

 

[highfigh]

From here, the ACA looked like an attempt to get universal coverage without it being universal medicare and ended up being neither fish nor fowl. Under a universal health care system, those uninsured turning up at the ER wouldn't be a thing anymore. There would be no jiggery pokery with the bill hinging on whether you or the insurance company is paying.

You had a fight with a router? What a coincidence! I had a similar encounter back in January - took the nail off my left middle finger. Went to a nearby health centre (not a full-scale hospital) to have it looked at - they were up to their eyeballs, as it was flu season and the ER was full of happy-go-pukey people. When I finally saw the doc, she said there was little beyond bandaging they could do with it, as it couldn't be stitched. She asked when I had my last tetanus shot. "Oh, about five years ago, after I had my last woodworking accident." She laughed (her dad did woodwork, too). Then she said, you really should go downtown to the hospital to have it x-rayed, in case there's bone chips. The clinic closed at midnight, which was rapidly approaching, so off we went. Got the x-ray done - all clear, but the doc there said it was 50/50 as to whether the nail would grow back. Left the hospital all bandaged up.

Grand total $: nothing. I understand that it isn't free, but if you need care in this country, you WILL get it. It's not problem-free. Wait times for certain procedures are longer than they should be. And, in many areas, there are family doctor shortages. That's a legacy of micromanaging the output of medical schools, primarily, from trying to predict doctor requirements years down the road and being severely wrong.

My nail is, in fact, growing back - but I don't think I'll ever be a hand model...

ACA turned out to be a way for the insurance companies to back out of covering people in large areas or make huge piles of money. The only ones who don't benefit are the ones who have to pay more for insurance than they do for their mortgage (and I know several). Insurance is a gamble, but we can't go through life without some kind of accident or need for medical care. The problem is that many people who don't have the means engage in risky behavior because they know they won't have to pay and that imposes a huge burden on the rest of us.

The coincidences are amazing- I had to have my finger X-Rayed, too- they said that it would have to be considered an 'open fracture' if it had nicked the bone, so I said "If it had nicked the bone, we would be looking at bone". It was a brand new tongue & groove bit and the one in the router was the one for making the tongue. Just nicked the tip and flicked it away. Didn't hurt, just went numb and started bleeding, so I did what any good woodworker would do- wrapped it with paper towel and fastened it with electrical tape. I was there for seven hours.

For a long time, I have said that the US needs more minor care clinics, so people don't need to inundate the ERs with pimples, stubbed toes and minor stuff but apparently, nobody is interested in trying that. OTOH, I went to a place called MinuteClinic and that, whatever she was, was clueless.

 

[highfigh]

..For that matter, how about Biden's son inking a 1.5 trillion dollar deal between his company and a government owned chinese bank when he visited there with his daddy when daddy went there on Air Force 1 (or 2, dunno) on official government business in 2013? Nobody is curious about that?

It's only called 'Air Force One' if POTUS in on board.

 

[panteragstk]

ACA turned out to be a way for the insurance companies to back out of covering people in large areas or make huge piles of money. The only ones who don't benefit are the ones who have to pay more for insurance than they do for their mortgage (and I know several). Insurance is a gamble, but we can't go through life without some kind of accident or need for medical care. The problem is that many people who don't have the means engage in risky behavior because they know they won't have to pay and that imposes a huge burden on the rest of us.

The coincidences are amazing- I had to have my finger X-Rayed, too- they said that it would have to be considered an 'open fracture' if it had nicked the bone, so I said "If it had nicked the bone, we would be looking at bone". It was a brand new tongue & groove bit and the one in the router was the one for making the tongue. Just nicked the tip and flicked it away. Didn't hurt, just went numb and started bleeding, so I did what any good woodworker would do- wrapped it with paper towel and fastened it with electrical tape. I was there for seven hours.

For a long time, I have said that the US needs more minor care clinics, so people don't need to inundate the ERs with pimples, stubbed toes and minor stuff but apparently, nobody is interested in trying that. OTOH, I went to a place called MinuteClinic and that, whatever she was, was clueless.

We actually have tons of those "doc in the box" clinics (as my mother calls them) and they're decent, but can get expensive based on insurance type too.

 

[GO-NAD!]

ACA turned out to be a way for the insurance companies to back out of covering people in large areas or make huge piles of money. The only ones who don't benefit are the ones who have to pay more for insurance than they do for their mortgage (and I know several). Insurance is a gamble, but we can't go through life without some kind of accident or need for medical care. The problem is that many people who don't have the means engage in risky behavior because they know they won't have to pay and that imposes a huge burden on the rest of us.

The coincidences are amazing- I had to have my finger X-Rayed, too- they said that it would have to be considered an 'open fracture' if it had nicked the bone, so I said "If it had nicked the bone, we would be looking at bone". It was a brand new tongue & groove bit and the one in the router was the one for making the tongue. Just nicked the tip and flicked it away. Didn't hurt, just went numb and started bleeding, so I did what any good woodworker would do- wrapped it with paper towel and fastened it with electrical tape. I was there for seven hours.

For a long time, I have said that the US needs more minor care clinics, so people don't need to inundate the ERs with pimples, stubbed toes and minor stuff but apparently, nobody is interested in trying that. OTOH, I went to a place called MinuteClinic and that, whatever she was, was clueless.

My injury was on a straight bit, so no fancy profile on my finger. Mine wasn't that painful either, which surprised me, because it looked pretty gruesome. I also wrapped it in paper towel and when the nurse started to remove it...that's when it stung a bit.

Do you seriously believe that people engage in risky behaviors because they don't have coverage and wouldn't have to pay for care? I would have a hard time accepting that argument.

 

[highfigh]

My injury was on a straight bit, so no fancy profile on my finger. Mine wasn't that painful either, which surprised me, because it looked pretty gruesome. I also wrapped it in paper towel and when the nurse started to remove it...that's when it stung a bit.

Do you seriously believe that people engage in risky behaviors because they don't have coverage and wouldn't have to pay for care? I would have a hard time accepting that argument.

If they know it will be covered, the filters go away but if they have doubt, they're more careful.

They put a 'non-stick' covering on mine. Oh, it stuck, alright. I smacked it on my toilet paper holder the next morning, which is Lucite and has nice, crisp edges, so that was great. Then, I went to a hand specialist (they made the appointment) and when the nurse saw that the 'non-stick' had stuck, she poured some clear liquid in a Dixie cup and told me it wouldn't sting. She was wrong, too. It was Peroxide. Felt like a lot of little needles.

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't ride a mountain bike with my insurance coverage in mind, have done many years without any at all. Doubt many really factor that into their activities. Just an old tired argument by those who think they need to not pay for our general health but only specific privileged people....

 

[Alex2507]

Wait times

doctor shortages

severely wrong.

Wow, I really like the way socialized medicine sounds so far.

Tell us more.