Is it time to Ditch Vinyl?

[surroundguy]

WTF does that have to do with playing Lp's ??????

Perhaps you didn't catch the part about playing music at home or at the office when critical listening isn't involved. Take a chill pill dude. Did you see the ; - )??

 

[Mikado463]

Perhaps you didn't catch the part about playing music at home or at the office when critical listening isn't involved. Take a chill pill dude. Did you see the ; - )??

whatever 'dude' .............

 

[surroundguy]

another angry asshole on a forum.

 

[Pogre]

another angry asshole on a forum.

I think including name calling in a post is a pretty clear demonstration of an angry asshole reply... lol.

 

[Mikado463]

for those of us staying the course with vinyl be aware of some potential stylus / cantilever issues with the Onzow ZeroDust device......

Time to Put Away The Onzow ZeroDust?

These latest microscope photos from WAM Engineering LLC (WallyTools) offer dramatic evidence that the Onzow Zerodust leaves a stubborn, difficult to remove residue on "clean" styli as well as on cantilevers. It's a troubling discovery. This first photo shows an Onzow Zerodust "clean" stylus with...

www.analogplanet.com

I've had one for years but have not used it as of late. Pretty much just the stiff bristled stylus brush (back to front)

 

[Bucknekked]

What snap, crackle, and pops let you know is the LP is defective, dirty, or full of static. These anomalies preclude me from satisfaction with LPs in general; however, there are many instances where the sound of LPs do indeed sound better to me than the same recording on CD, or SACD, where better is mostly about: presence, airiness, and dynamic range. On the other hand, overall, I gravitate to 5.1 SACDs. After listening to multi-channel going back to stereo is like going back to a Coke that has gone flat, no fizz. At any rate, no placebos here, just conundrums, which are about as big a deal as how a shaved headed man combs his hair.

@sterling shoote
I think you have the plus's and minus's summed up pretty well. You also manage to stay out of an extreme point of view while allowing those who have an opinion about as wide as the head of a pin to go ahead and enjoy it.
This topic (vinyl? why?) is a good one not because it has a correct answer. Its a good topic because it forces one to examine why you listen to music at all as a hobby.

I have listened to music as a hobby (as opposed to just turning on the radio in the car while going to the mall) most of my adult life. I am used to the fact nearly no one else does. I am also used to the fact that audio nerds are almost 100% men (there are rumors of a woman audiophile somehwere) and that its a shrinking and dying hobby.

The discussion about vinyl is like so many that we have. There's no real "correct answer". Opinions abound. Well reasoned discussions about features and upsides and downsides are plentiful. To me, its all about the music. Music is the most overlooked topic on the AH forum. We talk about the hardware all the time. But it is the music that makes the magic. I love my music. In fact, I think I'm going to stop this typing crap and go listen to some.

 

[Pogre]

I love my music. In fact, I think I'm going to stop this typing crap and go listen to some.

Reading your post made me want to turn some music on too! Ha ha.

 

[davidscott]

Hey anyone watching Bosch on Amazon will notice that Harry plays his jazz on a Marantz TT with tube amps into some OHM F speakers. Now that setup could sound magical!

 

[Twang]

Placebo.

Jeepers....Any Engineer/Mastering service can over-compress a digital file for commercial purposes. There are great vinyl recordings when transferred properly to digital will sound even better...and vise-versa. But the critical issue that vinyl devotees rarely, if ever, talk about is the discrepancy in distortion...especially as the needle moves inevitably into the inner grooves. This 'inner groove distortion' can be so discernible as to significantly ruin the listening experience. Maybe one won't hear a difference with the loud, cacophony of rock 'n roll, but try listening to the dynamic last scenes of some of the great operas or symphonies. Suddenly, voices start to thin out or even breakup and flutes lose their timbre. The assumption that Vinyl lovers are attached to the distortion profile of records (even with the best cartridges) seems to bear out, and I doubt if vinlylists care to even acknowledge the difference. But distortion is not what true representation of music is all about. It would be interesting to take one of the finest vinyl records, played on the best turntable/tone arm and cartridge and measure that Intermodulation and harmonic distortion from the first to last groove. I believe that will settle this controversy once and for all!

 

[TLS Guy]

Jeepers....Any Engineer/Mastering service can over-compress a digital file for commercial purposes. There are great vinyl recordings when transferred properly to digital will sound even better...and vise-versa. But the critical issue that vinyl devotees rarely, if ever, talk about is the discrepancy in distortion...especially as the needle moves inevitably into the inner grooves. This 'inner groove distortion' can be so discernible as to significantly ruin the listening experience. Maybe one won't hear a difference with the loud, cacophony of rock 'n roll, but try listening to the dynamic last scenes of some of the great operas or symphonies. Suddenly, voices start to thin out or even breakup and flutes lose their timbre. The assumption that Vinyl lovers are attached to the distortion profile of records (even with the best cartridges) seems to bear out, and I doubt if vinlylists care to even acknowledge the difference. But distortion is not what true representation of music is all about. It would be interesting to take one of the finest vinyl records, played on the best turntable/tone arm and cartridge and measure that Intermodulation and harmonic distortion from the first to last groove. I believe that will settle this controversy once and for all!

What you say about inner groove distortion is an issue. However a really good arm cartridge combination will make it minimal to undetectable on well mastered and stamped records. You need to set tracking error to be zero on the inside grooves, as the small error will not be noticeable on the outer grooves.

On most records, my Shure V15 xmr cartridges in my SME series III arms with the silicone damper pot installed will be good to the last drop so to speak.

The major issue with vinyl is that it takes really good equipment obsessionally set up. The last of the top end Shure V 15 series really did have the best trackability of any cartridges I know. The SME series III arms were specifically designed to optimally match those cartridges.

 

[Twang]

What you say about inner groove distortion is an issue. However a really good arm cartridge combination will make it minimal to undetectable on well mastered and stamped records. You need to set tracking error to be zero on the inside grooves, as the small error will not be noticeable on the outer grooves.

On most records, my Shure V15 xmr cartridges in my SME series III arms with the silicone damper pot installed will be good to the last drop so to speak.

The major issue with vinyl is that it takes really good equipment obsessionally set up. The last of the top end Shure V 15 series really did have the best trackability of any cartridges I know. The SME series III arms were specifically designed to optimally match those cartridges.

Indeed...I remember back in the late 60's that the Shure V-15 initial offering was as good as it got. I'm sure the latest incarnation is significantly better. The issues of turntable rumble, wow, flutter and speed accuracy have put these problems out to pasture. I'll take your word for it that with a good deal of effort and money one can reduce tracking distortion to be inaudible as well. But the real issue , as you elude to, is the mixing and mastering. I'm not doing vinyl anymore, but maybe you can tell me if the loudness wars (the over-compression) is affecting new vinyl records these days?

 

[KenM10759]

Sadly, no longer made.

Sad news, vinyl lovers: Shure exits phono cartridge business

Shure has been making cartridges for turntables since 1937, but no more. Its mic and headphone businesses will remain.

www.cnet.com

 

[3db]

Indeed...I remember back in the late 60's that the Shure V-15 initial offering was as good as it got. I'm sure the latest incarnation is significantly better. The issues of turntable rumble, wow, flutter and speed accuracy have put these problems out to pasture. I'll take your word for it that with a good deal of effort and money one can reduce tracking distortion to be inaudible as well. But the real issue , as you elude to, is the mixing and mastering. I'm not doing vinyl anymore, but maybe you can tell me if the loudness wars (the over-compression) is affecting new vinyl records these days?

As far as I know the loudness war never made it to vinyl because of its limited dynamic range. I have lots of vinyl in every genre except for rap and hiphop and the dynamics havent changed generally speaking.

 

[Am_P]

No, going to disagree with that one. This isn't simply about which technology is better. A lot of it comes down to mixing and recording engineering. I have heard some remixed classic albums where I definitely prefer the original LP over the remix. Others have been a nice improvement over the original. While I'm on the side that believes that digital is superior when all things are treated equal, I don't think it would be all that hard to find an LP that sounds superior to it's digital counterpart, even with the occasional pop and click. Now if you were comparing identical mixes on LP vs CD, then I would agree that expectation bias comes into play.

For any newer artist who starts off with an official studio master in hires digital, why the hell would anyone even remotely consider degrading it down onto a vinyl press? That would be a silly thing to do.

For older analog stuff/albums dating back to the 60s, 70s, etc...the vinyl pressing can beat out a botched cd for sure on a competent vinyl setup. But, even on some older albums, i have heard some digital remasters that are impeccably done and are starting to sound better than the vinyl counterpart.

 

[Replicant 7]

Has Gene ever ran test on turntables and or cartridges?

 

[panteragstk]

As far as I know the loudness war never made it to vinyl because of its limited dynamic range. I have lots of vinyl in every genre except for rap and hiphop and the dynamics havent changed generally speaking.

Makes me wonder if any of the newer pressings use the same masters as the CDs that would be included in the "loudness war".

 

[davidscott]

Jeepers....Any Engineer/Mastering service can over-compress a digital file for commercial purposes. There are great vinyl recordings when transferred properly to digital will sound even better...and vise-versa. But the critical issue that vinyl devotees rarely, if ever, talk about is the discrepancy in distortion...especially as the needle moves inevitably into the inner grooves. This 'inner groove distortion' can be so discernible as to significantly ruin the listening experience. Maybe one won't hear a difference with the loud, cacophony of rock 'n roll, but try listening to the dynamic last scenes of some of the great operas or symphonies. Suddenly, voices start to thin out or even breakup and flutes lose their timbre. The assumption that Vinyl lovers are attached to the distortion profile of records (even with the best cartridges) seems to bear out, and I doubt if vinlylists care to even acknowledge the difference. But distortion is not what true representation of music is all about. It would be interesting to take one of the finest vinyl records, played on the best turntable/tone arm and cartridge and measure that Intermodulation and harmonic distortion from the first to last groove. I believe that will settle this controversy once and for all!

But the 1st and 2nd track on an LP can sound phenomenal!

 

[Twang]

BTW: Where do you get NEW Vinyl recordings of NEW recordings? A lot for sale are reissues or remastered reissues!

 

[SithZedi]

Unless you get to a boutique record store in an urban area try Best Buy in select locations.

 

[Mikado463]

BTW: Where do you get NEW Vinyl recordings of NEW recordings? A lot for sale are reissues or remastered reissues!

the two best brick and mortar places I've ever been to ...........

Princeton Record Exchange http://www.prex.com

and

Record Archive https://recordarchive.com

my favorite online shops...... elusive disc, acoustic sounds, music direct and of course amazon