Is it time to Ditch Vinyl?

[Pogre]

I just stumbled across this on fb, lol.

 

[Austrokiwi]

Intellectually I can't dispute the autors argument. However the author , as do many these days, fails to adress one factor that has long been forgotten in hifi; the Psychology and function of perception. For a long time I have been trying to work out why records sound better to me than CDs or tidal, I can't discount nostalgia but I think another factor is at play that has been poorly researched, simply put; all the faults of records actually make the music being played more interesting to the perceptual system. I won't go into all the examples but our perceptual system is designed for a fight or flight world. What grabs our perceptual systems interest is unpredictability/change. To ensure we can see our eyes vibrate at 50cycles a second, when experiemnts were done that stabilised images on the retina... the stabilised image disappears from view... its being seen just the lack of change sees our peceptual system edit it out. I would love to see modern research on it but I believe the very faults of records make our percetual systems attend more to the music produced from that media than more accurate media.

 

[Pogre]

Intellectually I can't dispute the autors argument. However the author , as do many these days, fails to adress one factor that has long been forgotten in hifi; the Psychology and function of perception. For a long time I have been trying to work out why records sound better to me than CDs or tidal, I can't discount nostalgia but I think another factor is at play that has been poorly researched, simply put; all the faults of records actually make the music being played more interesting to the perceptual system. I won't go into all the examples but our perceptual system is designed for a fight or flight world. What grabs our perceptual systems interest is unpredictability/change. To ensure we can see our eyes vibrate at 50cycles a second, when experiemnts were done that stabilised images on the retina... the stabilised image disappears from view... its being seen just the lack of change sees our peceptual system edit it out. I would love to see modern research on it but I believe the very faults of records make our percetual systems attend more to the music produced from that media than more accurate media.

I think the word you're looking for is "psychoacoustics". The branch of psychophysics involving the scientific study of sound perception and audiology —how humans perceive various sounds. More specifically, it is the branch of science studying the psychological responses associated with sound (including noise, speech, and music). It's a subject that you'll find several threads and articles on here if you search a bit. Dr Floyd Toole of Harman literally wrote the book on it.

Vinyl preference over other sources is pretty subjective and you'll find proponents of both here, but ultimately digital is by and large considered a superior format. There's something to be said about expectation bias and placebo too. Then again, some just like handling the physical media and watching the needle slide in the groove. The occasional pop or crackle can actually sound kinda cool and hits you in the nostalgia feelers.

*PS, a link to the book I referenced.

Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms (Audio Engineering Society Presents): Toole, Floyd: 9781138921368: Amazon.com: Books

Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms (Audio Engineering Society Presents) [Toole, Floyd] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms (Audio Engineering Society...

www.amazon.com

 

[Austrokiwi]

I am a psychologist but its a long time since I looked at perception. In my university days it was called the psychology of perception. I di think you may have missed the main point. Vinyl may well be percieved better that digital formats because it lacks the accuracy of those better formats. I suspect that with digital formats the music is more predictable( with regards the perceptual system) and as a result is not attended to ( by the perceptual system). Vinyl with its faults creates a less "predictable sound, and triggers the perceptual system to keep on attending to the music.

 

[Billydfish]

In my world there's a place for both. There's no doubt that streaming platforms have let me find whole new veins of musical gold that I may not have found otherwise. It lets me access a vast amount of music quickly, cheaply and easily. It's convenient, transportable and I'd never want to lose that.
But ... When I really want to listen to music, if I've got it on vinyl, that's what I'll choose. Now it may be that my hi-fi setup is comparatively modest (and comparatively old) but a couple of years ago when I brought my turntable out from it's dust covers in the attic and hooked it up again to spin summer is favourites I had that same 'wow!' factor experience that I had when I plugged in and fired up my first CD player. But for different reasons.
Back then we were wowed by the absence of pops, cracks, static crackles, floor noise and rumble that CD brought us.
When I went back to try vinyl the wow was because of the breadth and definition of the soundstage, the lack of compression , the space around instruments that allowed them to remain defined and pinpointed no matter what else was going on around them, and not least brought back the 'pop' that I remembered from old favourite tracks that somehow seemed to have dulled when bought in CD format.
I soon bought a semi decent record cleaner too which killed off the crackles and pops on old and well-played cherished recordings to a surprising and pleasing degree too.

I've seen and heard arguments both ways about the comparative dynamic range of CD Vs Vinyl by far more intelligent people than myself, but my ears tell me that my vinyl , played on my turntable has more dynamic range - or maybe dynamic granularity than my digital sources - be that on CD or streamed.

I have recent recordings ('point' by yello) that to my ears have that same edge to them on vinyl- so it can't be per se a digital Vs analogue thing as that recording will have been in the digital domain throughout. But maybe it is the case that you have to get pretty exotic in the digital domain (48 bit 192khz) to get to a point that a more modest turntable/arm/cartridge setup can achieve.

As others have pointed out, the physicality and extra effort you have to go to also perhaps makes you commit more to - and thus get out of- the experience.

Finally , there's one immutable fact. Sound waves are analogue! So any digital storage and retrieval mechanism is going to be a facsimile.

If I had to choose and only have one - I think I'd probably end up going for the convenience of streamed, but it would be with a heavy heart.

Capitalism loves numbers and acronyms, it really helps make us keep replacing stuff. So you can be tempted to spend thousands on the latest 8K TV with 240Hz refresh rate and a bazillion NITS , HDR etc. And it will be a lovely thing, but I'll bet that if you get the opportunity to watch a decent CRT now, you'd find the fluidity and smoothness of motion a revelation. If you've got a good size, decent quality CRT in your loft you might be surprised at how much an avid gamer will pay you for it!

 

[Billydfish]

Another really important point too. And this is not about quality, it's about ownership and perpetuity.

Music that you really love-you should own.
By all means you can then stream it for convenience.(either from an online steaming service or from your own streaming service).

• If you own your own copies then only you can lose yourself access to it.
• You can still listen to it if your streaming service goes under
• You can pass your collection on when you die
• You can still listen to it when your broadband goes down
• You can still listen to it when the internet collapses.
• You can still listen to it if streaming services choose to remove that content due to content rotation, deals expiring, or for editorial purposes (you can guarantee this is coming to music next).
• You are making sure the artist gets some just reward for the music you enjoy.

 

[robladw]

You CANNOT stream to the A-S1200, A-S2200, or A-S3200 Integrated amps. No internal DAC. No digital Inputs/outputs.

You can stream to the MusicCast Turntable.

I went the A-S1200 route. I ditched my turntable kept my Marantz HD DAC1 which I have yet to hear anything I like better. I will eventually get a decent streamer with room correction. These all have a great synergy with my Polk Reserve 200s and my pair of of JBL 570 subs integrate so well with anything. This is a great 2 channel system. I will probably never play another album. I owned a 2nd hand CD store for years and have a huge collection of CDs I transferred over to FLAC. You should see if you can find you one of the Marantz DACs they are possibly the most underrated or missed DACs on the market. It pairs really well with the Yamaha and the Reserves as well.

 

[robladw]

In this editorial, Jerry Del Colliano talks about why he decided to sell his entire vinyl collection.

There are Baby Boomer writers over at Stereophile and TAS pulling out their Jerry Del Colliano voodoo dolls as I type in preparation for this article being published. You see, the audiophile community doesn’t like change. In fact, they despise it with every fiber of their beings. In the eyes of the elders who still control the hobby to this day, poorly performing “vintage” tube amps are somehow better than the most state of the art Class-D amps. Digital room correction (or even equalization, despite EQ being used on every track of every recording audiophiles listen to, as well as on the “house speakers,” in the mastering lab, and beyond) is looked upon as evil, because it uses actual science to measure the physical acoustics of a room, and provides digital solutions that can provide wholesale upgrades. These fly in the face of the “preamp of the week club” or blindly changing out expensive, inaccurate, EQed cables in search of one’s own personal audio utopia. But no one retro move in the audiophile hobby has been more hurtful to the business and broken in logic than the so-called comeback of vinyl.

View attachment 43919

Read: Why I Sold My Entire Vinyl Collection and Didn't Look Back

Do you agree with the author or still a diehard vinyl lover?

While I agree with most of your article you should really stick to what you know about and were hired to do. Unless I am somehow mistaken and you are a political commentator. In which case you are over paid.

 

[lovinthehd]

While I agree with most of your article you should really stick to what you know about and were hired to do. Unless I am somehow mistaken and you are a political commentator. In which case you are over paid.

Jerry wrote the article, not Gene. Perhaps you are the one who should stay living in the past, tho?

 

[robladw]

Jerry wrote the article, not Gene. Perhaps you are the one who should stay living in the past, tho?

I'm on the east coast which means I'm living about 3 hours ahead of you.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm on the east coast which means I'm living about 3 hours ahead of you.

Fair enough...altho you're just living in the past compared to me

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I went the A-S1200 route. I ditched my turntable kept my Marantz HD DAC1 which I have yet to hear anything I like better. I will eventually get a decent streamer with room correction. These all have a great synergy with my Polk Reserve 200s and my pair of of JBL 570 subs integrate so well with anything. This is a great 2 channel system. I will probably never play another album. I owned a 2nd hand CD store for years and have a huge collection of CDs I transferred over to FLAC. You should see if you can find you one of the Marantz DACs they are possibly the most underrated or missed DACs on the market. It pairs really well with the Yamaha and the Reserves as well.

1st, congrats in the very sexy Yamaha A-S1200. So pretty looking.

Since you ditched your turntable and transferred your CDs to digital FLAC, it seems you fully embrace the digital FUTURE, which I do also.

As for me, I am more into convenient high-end like the Yamaha CX-A5200 AVP and Yamaha RX-A3080 AVR and simply stream all my music to Yamaha MusicCast.

And as for DACs, I have heard many high-end DACs, and I can’t tell any difference among any of them. So I don’t care about any external DACs.

For example, the RX-A3080 has the ESS SABRE PRO ES9026PRO DAC, which is 32bit 768kHz 124dB DSD. The Marantz HD DAC1 has the Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC, which is 24bit 216kHz 120dB DSD. Technically the RX-A3080 has a better DAC. But I won’t hear any difference just from the DAC.

Also be aware that most Room Correction EQ will downsample your music files to 48kHz. I only say this because you mentioned about the external DAC.

But there is a different system for everyone.

At the end of the day, we have to be happy with our decisions.

 

[itspecos]

Enough already! To each their own. Stop this childish my team is better than your team crap. I know everyone doesn't want a room full of records or cd's I get it. Just like everyone doesn't want huge Klipsch Cornwall speakers or a huge Yamaha PX-2 turntable, or an amplifier w/hot glowing tubes in their living room, or even live where they could enjoy playing them at a decent volume. Some folks like me live where the internet sucks and streaming is a terrible option. Some folks like me are just passionate and proud of their stereo systems and record collections. Musicians also make more money selling albums and CDs than the pennies they get from the streaming service providers. So why don't you just shut up and mind your own business?

 

[afterlife2]

Enough already! To each their own. Stop this childish my team is better than your team crap. I know everyone doesn't want a room full of records or cd's I get it. Just like everyone doesn't want huge Klipsch Cornwall speakers or a huge Yamaha PX-2 turntable, or an amplifier w/hot glowing tubes in their living room, or even live where they could enjoy playing them at a decent volume. Some folks like me live where the internet sucks and streaming is a terrible option. Some folks like me are just passionate and proud of their stereo systems and record collections. Musicians also make more money selling albums and CDs than the pennies they get from the streaming service providers. So why don't you just shut up and mind your own business?

Amen. That said I need another book case soon for my vinyl.

 

[robladw]

1st, congrats in the very sexy Yamaha A-S1200. So pretty looking.

Since you ditched your turntable and transferred your CDs to digital FLAC, it seems you fully embrace the digital FUTURE, which I do also.

As for me, I am more into convenient high-end like the Yamaha CX-A5200 AVP and Yamaha RX-A3080 AVR and simply stream all my music to Yamaha MusicCast.

And as for DACs, I have heard many high-end DACs, and I can’t tell any difference among any of them. So I don’t care about any external DACs.

For example, the RX-A3080 has the ESS SABRE PRO ES9026PRO DAC, which is 32bit 768kHz 124dB DSD. The Marantz HD DAC1 has the Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC, which is 24bit 216kHz 120dB DSD. Technically the RX-A3080 has a better DAC. But I won’t hear any difference just from the DAC.

Also be aware that most Room Correction EQ will downsample your music files to 48kHz. I only say this because you mentioned about the external DAC.

But there is a different system for everyone.

At the end of the day, we have to be happy with our decisions.

Yeah I fully embraced digital. Not sure why anyone would not. I only held on to my albums as long as I have because of tradition and ritual. A cigar a drink and a album. More honestly stated a cigar 3 drinks and a album.

Well for me this 2 channel system is the result of the kids being gone and work from home allowing me to turn a bedroom into a home office/media/game room/man cave. It give me an excuse to get my first HDR TV under the guise of using it for a monitor for work since I need so much open. Then getting my 2 channel system using the excuse I spend so much time in there. That HDR TV did lead to the better half breaking down and getting a QN90A (great TV) for the living room. Which also lead to her helping expand my growing 4k DVD collection. I now consume most of my DVD and HDR content there. So I still want this 2 channel system.

Thank you for the heads up on the room correction I was not aware of that. Though like you I am not sure I could hear it. In fact any difference I think I hear in the newer fancier DACs I have tried tends to be in a direction I don't want to go. Usually a bit brighter which gives a sense of more detail but I think it is more just the result of the electronics in the path than what is actually in the signal.

You do have me very interested in the Yamaha WXC-50 it checks most of my wish list boxes minus room correction and HDMI input. Room correction is more something I want to try and see if I can get a noticeable difference. Plus the DAC onboard probably pairs at least as well with what I have here considering I am sure it was a thought when designing these components. It checking on line it appears due to scarcity it has drove up the prices of places that do have stock. Reading some reviews on it I would guess that it would be a good fit for me. It does not have that bump at the top that gives the sense of more detail.

Thanks for bringing up this topic as I have been looking for a good streamer and the DAC in it may be good enough to my liking I sell the Marantz. It will be interesting to see if the DAC in it capable of replacing the Marantz.

Now the big question will Yamaha resupply soon enough I will wait or is it a long enough delay I can justify over paying 100 bucks over retail.

 

[robladw]

Enough already! To each their own. Stop this childish my team is better than your team crap. I know everyone doesn't want a room full of records or cd's I get it. Just like everyone doesn't want huge Klipsch Cornwall speakers or a huge Yamaha PX-2 turntable, or an amplifier w/hot glowing tubes in their living room, or even live where they could enjoy playing them at a decent volume. Some folks like me live where the internet sucks and streaming is a terrible option. Some folks like me are just passionate and proud of their stereo systems and record collections. Musicians also make more money selling albums and CDs than the pennies they get from the streaming service providers. So why don't you just shut up and mind your own business?

Well do not think I am knocking anyone for their decisions or taste. There is nothing wrong with this. I am only responding to this after reading about your internet connection. I like you live where high speed access was not possible. That was till AT&T launched their high speed wireless. They basically drop a small receiver in your yard that lets you connect to nodes wirelessly they hang on cell towers. It is not something you would use in competitive gaming. However the data packages are reasonable and generous and work well for streaming up to 4k. It is a very good service compared to the satellite offerings. They should do a better job of marketing it because there is a demand. You should check and see if they offer it in your area. Their current package is 59.99 for 350 gigs a month with an additional 10 bucks for every 50 gigs you go over that. You can find out if they offer it in your area here.

AT&T Fixed Wireless Internet - Rural Internet Without a Satellite

Whether you’re off the grid or just outside of town, with AT&T Fixed Wireless Internet you can get fast Internet speeds of at least 10Mbps.

www.att.com

 

[TLS Guy]

Well do not think I am knocking anyone for their decisions or taste. There is nothing wrong with this. I am only responding to this after reading about your internet connection. I like you live where high speed access was not possible. That was till AT&T launched their high speed wireless. They basically drop a small receiver in your yard that lets you connect to nodes wirelessly they hang on cell towers. It is not something you would use in competitive gaming. However the data packages are reasonable and generous and work well for streaming up to 4k. It is a very good service compared to the satellite offerings. They should do a better job of marketing it because there is a demand. You should check and see if they offer it in your area. Their current package is 59.99 for 350 gigs a month with an additional 10 bucks for every 50 gigs you go over that. You can find out if they offer it in your area here.

AT&T Fixed Wireless Internet - Rural Internet Without a Satellite

Whether you’re off the grid or just outside of town, with AT&T Fixed Wireless Internet you can get fast Internet speeds of at least 10Mbps.

www.att.com

Vinyl is modern, only 73 years young. What about Shellac! 119 years old. Got to give a decent century before ditching a format.

Some just like to experience the road travelled and admire what our forebears achieved.

So a rig like the one below, where the newest item is 50 years old, would show you how little progress we have made in many ways.

Using it is in many ways intuitive.

For reasons I do not fully comprehend prices for items like that are currently undergoing hyperinflation.

Sure on the face of it, we now have far easier access. The downside is that it comes with layers and levels of complexity, that I can assure you defeat many.
If anything I would say barriers to access are now greater then they were 50 years ago, with complexity being the biggest barrier. This may be solved with the passing of generations, but personally I'm not convinced of this. We are an echo chamber. The whole industry really needs to understand and eliminate barriers to access. If not I think there will be decline which is best avoided.

 

[robladw]

Vinyl is modern, only 73 years young. What about Shellac! 119 years old. Got to give a decent century before ditching a format.

Some just like to experience the road travelled and admire what our forebears achieved.

So a rig like the one below, where the newest item is 50 years old, would show you how little progress we have made in many ways.

Using it is in many ways intuitive.

For reasons I do not fully comprehend prices for items like that are currently undergoing hyperinflation.

Sure on the face of it, we now have far easier access. The downside is that it comes with layers and levels of complexity, that I can assure you defeat many.
If anything I would say barriers to access are now greater then they were 50 years ago, with complexity being the biggest barrier. This may be solved with the passing of generations, but personally I'm not convinced of this. We are an echo chamber. The whole industry really needs to understand and eliminate barriers to access. If not I think there will be decline which is best avoided.

4k Ultra Blu-Ray best illustrates the idea I think you are trying to get at here. I think what you are talking about with the complexity is owning the media in a physical format VS having some license in the nether that grants you access. There is too much beyond your control for that access. I feel kind of the same but also like the convivence even with the complexity. Which is why I transferred my CD collection to digital. I also have a turntable that will let me do it with albums. I say 4k Blu-ray is a good illustration of what you are getting at here is that only a few 4k disk players give you the ability to decrypt them and let you control the media you paid for. I enjoy my plex server so I am converting all my 4k.

Is that your home theater in the photos?

 

[sterling shoote]

I succumbed to the vinyl revival about 4 years ago thinking that the technology of it had perhaps improved to eliminate the snap, crackle, and pop of it all. Purchasing a new Technics SL-1210GR, a Jico Boron SAS stylus for one of my Shure V15V-MR Cartridges, as well as a dozen new LPs, I thought, YES, nirvana here I come; but, the experience I expected has not yet come to fruition and I suspect I will not reach the desired destination from it; yet, on occasion, I have indeed sensed a life-like presence from vinyl, which I have not gleaned from CDs or SACDs of same content. One example of this "presence" is heard from an Eagles Greatest Hits LP I bought just a few weeks ago. At any rate, vinyl play is mostly just novelty for me these days, since streaming Apple Music satisfies in all manner of quality and convenience.

 

[highfigh]

Is that a Crown crossover near the top of the left rack?