Intelligent Design ruling

[Revelator]

An American Indian

Excuse me but my tribe has lived on this land since before the white people came. We have so many beliefs about the origins of life and how we should lilve with the land that it is too large to explain here. I can provide you a summary.

Please tell me why my children can not learn these subjects in public schools.

http://www.ilhawaii.net/~stony/loreindx.html

 

[BMXTRIX]

Evolution is a SCIENTIFIC THEORY. It is not a scientific fact like most teachers claim. This is a BIG problem. When teachers go to the extreme of calling evolution the foundation of biology is where I get a little angry. The foundation of biology is when life began. For some of you out there the beginning of life is the Big Bang, for others (including me) it is the creation of life by God.

Students should be taught both theories. Yes, I said BOTH theories. They should be able to make the decision themselves as to which one they want to believe. Teachers have no right whatsoever to deprive students of the right to make their own belief choices.

This doesn't anger me - nor anyone - who understands that what you are doing is confusing scientifically based theories with mystical based theories. Then you immediately say the word 'GOD'.

This is exactly what is not supposed to be taught in schools and is exactly why it should NOT be there. This topic is the perfect example of why creationism absolutely should not be taught. The only people speaking for it are Christians. Not one other group has stood up to say 'Yes, that's a great idea!'. It is exactly the self-serving, self-centered mentality that (some) Christians possess knowledge that the rest of the world just lacks.

Of course, it isn't all Christians!!!

I don't even think it would be an issue if all Christians were as open-minded as many are. But, all are not. There are those who stand up and say "I dont' want to push this on you." Then they procede to tell you that you are wrong and that the Bible has 40 different quotes to tell you why.

Note: These quotes don't originate in the quoran - so how could they be right?



Exactly! There are different opinions on the actual creation. But, the (very strong) theory of evolution is as close to becoming law as possible. While no solid evidence of creationism exists and it has roots and actual arguements that seem to only originate from the Christian front. Evolution wasn't the only idea to come along the road, it is just the only one that works with the evidence that is available.

And, as I have said before, it does not necessitate that absence of creationism or your belief.

 

[AverageJoe]

It has been obvious that over the past few year, the fundamentalists have made it there point to misuse the term "liberal" to the point where most of us have needed to defend our position instead of embrace it. I'd like to set things straight by applying a basic definition from the Webster's dictionary.

Liberal
Adjective
1. Showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; "a broad political stance"; "generous and broad sympathies"; "a liberal newspaper"; "tolerant of his opponent's opinions".
...

Screw Rush Limbo and sign me up, ....

Broad minded? Tolerant?

Yup, I'd say you're a Liberal all right.

 

[Tomorrow]

Please professor, add this to my child's Curriculum. I just moved here from another country and enjoy the fact that the US school systems provide alternative languages for education. I'm not sure why these same schools only teach one form of creationism in a country that was founded on freedom of religion. I don't want my child to grow up without the same faith that my people have followed for thousands of years.

A Hindu Creation Story
There are several creation stories in Hinduism. Hinduism believes there are times when the universe takes form and times when it dissolves back into nothing. The in-between times are known as the days and nights of Brahma, who is the Hindu god of creation.

The Hindu Symbol, Om

Before time began there was no heaven, no earth and no space between. A vast dark ocean washed upon the shores of nothingness and licked the edges of night. A giant cobra floated on the waters. Asleep within its endless coils lay the Lord Vishnu. He was watched over by the mighty serpent. Everything was so peaceful and silent that Vishnu slept undisturbed by dreams or motion.

Vishnu

From the depths a humming sound began to tremble, Om. It grew and spread, filling the emptiness and throbbing with energy. The night had ended. Vishnu awoke. As the dawn began to break, from Vishnu's navel grew a magnificent lotus flower. In the middle of the blossom sat Vishnu's servant, Brahma. He awaited the Lord's command.

Vishnu spoke to his servant: 'It is time to begin.' Brahma bowed. Vishnu commanded: 'Create the world.'






Brahma,


God of Creation

A wind swept up the waters. Vishnu and the serpent vanished. Brahma remained in the lotus flower, floating and tossing on the sea. He lifted up his arms and calmed the wind and the ocean. Then Brahma split the lotus flower into three. He stretched one part into the heavens. He made another part into the earth. With the third part of the flower he created the skies.


The earth was bare. Brahma set to work. He created grass, flowers, trees and plants of all kinds. To these he gave feeling. Next he created the animals and the insects to live on the land. He made birds to fly in the air and many fish to swim in the sea. To all these creatures, he gave the senses of touch and smell. He gave them power to see, hear and move.


The world was soon bristling with life and the air was filled with the sounds of Brahma's creation.

I think we just ought to make a new Audioholics chapter. You know, one for Speakers and Subwoofers, Steam Vent, Deals, Amps/etc, and a new one.... Revelator. It could kinda be like wikipedia...since everything will be in there.

 

[mustang_steve]

My opinion may be a bit harsh, but at least to me it makes some sense.]

Public education should be just that, public...not focusing on anything that can not relate to everyone. Pretty much math, english, and science should be the focus. The rest are electives.

Now, for religion...in my opinion it's cover them all or cover none. If a child should be learning religion, the best way to do that is through family or their church/temple/synagogue/mosque/etc. We don't need a specific class at school for this.

On another note, that's why private schools are so prevalent, religious schools.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

arguments Creationists should not use (but have)

Creationism has been losing foothold as a "gap" hypothesis in many religions, always revising their claim as science moves forward.

Time and knowledge will push Creationism into a corner it can't escape.

Check out all the revisions over the years.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp

 

[racquetman]

loss of genetic information

Can someone clear this up for me??

I've been told that no mutation (evolving process) has ever taken place that involves the gain of genetic material (DNA). So when a bacteria or virus or whatever becomes resistent to whatever we are throwing at it, it changes by discarding certain genetic material, never gaining new genetic material. Is this true?

So what I'm getting at is if we are evolving and this is true, it seems like we wouldn't be getting more complex, but less. Or is the genetic material actually rearranged to make the change and nothing is gained or lost?

Anyway, this is where the answers actually exist, on the atomic level. As a chemist, this is the part I'm most interested in. However, my biology knowledge is limited and I'm hoping someone can clear this up for me.

 

[gene]

I've been told that no mutation (evolving process) has ever taken place that involves the gain of genetic material (DNA).

You have been told wrong. Not sure who your source of misinformation is, but you may wish to correct them or not continually get advices from them

There is more and more genetic material all the time! Thankfully some also gets lost or we wouldn't be able to carry it all around after all these eons. There is also chromosome duplication. Whole genome duplication also happens. Mutations involving loss of genetic material also happen. Most genes are members of large gene families.

I suggest doing some google searches for more info on:

Gene Duplication

 

[Revelator]

Private Schools are Great

Mustang Steve,

I could not agree with you more. If you want your child to learn about creationism or any other faith based information, then you are more than welcomed to send them to private school.

If you have your kid in private school, stay the hell out of the corriculum when it comes to religion because you have NO BUSINESS being there.

If you want a choice, there it is. If you can't afford it and it's important enough for you, sell your house and rent an appartment. Leave public school out of your debate and move on with more important things like trying to figure out how your great grand kids are going to pay down the national debt we've compiled over the past six years.

Oh, and one more thing. Why is it that the very same group of fundamentalists who want smaller government and do not want socialized healthcare are now OK with having socialized religion? Isn't that yet another one of their hypocrisies?

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

My suggestion: Any school may teach creationism instead of evolution. But those schools may not use any devices, or teach any knowledge, or engage in any practices that were not in effect in 1865. As soon as a female enters the building (not by means of a metal & glass door I hope) or a teacher grabs a ballpoint pen, the school shall end its love affair with quaint 18th century culture and get back to work of educating students for the 21st century.

Or they may teach Intelligent Design as long as its made perfectly clear that the designer could very well be a flying spaghetti monster. Or maybe an omnipresent gumdrop.

 

[Revelator]

That Was Brilliant

Ninja,

That was brilliant

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

I'm just so happy I'm done with school. I can only imagine the propaganda I will have to try and beat out my children by the time they get to highschool.

BTW: I enjoyed the "Story of Scientology" Can you follow up with Mormonism? I hear it involves a planet Kobold and everyone becoming a demigod or something. It should make for a fun read.

 

[mike c]

Most genes are members of large gene families.

I suggest doing some google searches for more info on:

Gene Duplication

If we have more Genes, will we get more product reviews?

 

[Revelator]

Morman than Woman

Ninja,

As and ye shall receive. I'm thinking of adding this to the public school classes. Afterall, it is "Christian" so the fundamentalists should be happy, no?


By quote from a Mormon - The Mormon church has the 13 articles of faith that missionaries and members like to hand out, but it does not contain most of the doctrines that make the Mormon Church unique. Also, when the original "13" articles of faith were written it was 14. So being true to the idea of original version, I decided to have the 14 fundamental beliefs of Mormons. I listed these in order of importance to a Mormon. There may be some variance in the order of importance depending on the Mormon you may talk to. This list does not follow the original 14 except in number. The Fourteen Articles of Faith

1 - God was once a man who lived on another planet
This is the most important teaching of Mormonism. Nothing else comes close to it. We believe that God was once a mortal man on another planet who progressed by living in obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel he had on his world, then he died. He became a resurrected man and evolved to become a god. He is still married now (some early leaders say he is a polygamist) and created this world. We worship only the one true god, which is really one god among millions or billions or more. We believe that we will follow in God's footsteps by becoming perfect and we too will become Gods and Goddesses creating spirit children and peopling other worlds. The Mormon TV commercials showing family togetherness is the foundation for life in the next world - as a family - as gods.

2 - We are co-eternal with God
We believe we have all existed for all eternity. First we existed as "intelligences", which has never been defined, then we were given spirit bodies in a heaven by our eternal parents. Our "intelligences" have existed forever just like the our God's has and we have been around him in one form or another forever. He has just simply progressed ahead of us.
Reference: Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 7, 1844. Joseph Smith speaking:
"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a priviledge to advance like himself"

3 - The origin of Jesus Christ
Jesus was begotten by physical union of God and Mary. Since God has a body of flesh and bones, he really had literal sex with Mary. The product of this union was Jesus, part man and part God. We believe Jesus was the first born in heaven by heavenly father and mother who created his spirit and our spirits using our "intelligences" as a foundation for our spirits. Our "intelligences" were floating around in the universe and needed to be organized into spirits. Since he was the first born spirit, and according to the Book of Abraham, his "intelligence" was better than the other "intelligences" out there, he is the most important spirit creation. When Jesus received his physical body by the union of God and Mary, his spirit was put into his body like our spirits were put into our bodies. His body was special though because his father was a god. The rest of us have only regular dads.

4 - Truth is determined by feelings
We believe we know the truth by our feelings. We do not rely on and we will disregard any facts that contradict what our feelings tell us is true. If something feels bad, like someone telling us that Joseph Smith was a fraud, then we know that Smith must of been a prophet since falsehoods create bad feelings and it feels bad when someone tells us that we have been duped. In other words, if we get a bad feeling, we are hearing bad things which must be lies. We feel good when we read the Book of Mormon, therefore it is true. Archeology, genetics, science, metallurgy, agriculture and animal studies are irrelevant since our feelings tell us it is a true book revealed by God. This good feeling applies to all aspects of our lives. We determine if we should do something or know the truth of something if we have prayed about it and have a good feeling about it.

5 - What a Prophet said can be revised depending on the circumstances
We believe that when the Prophet, the head of our church, says something that is definitely wrong he was not being inspired at that time. He was only speaking as a man. We believe that the newer Prophets can override the older Prophets. We believe we have a prophet on earth today even though he never prophecies anything.

6 - Saving our dead ancestors shows we are the only Christian church
We believe we have temples where we get the handshakes and passwords that allow us to become gods. We also baptize by proxy dead people so they too can become Mormons.

7 - Ex-Mormons or apostates had sin in their life or never had a testimony
We believe apostates, if they had a testimony, will be cast into outer darkness. The others who leave Mormonism must never had a testimony.

8 - We will only read church approved materials
Any literature which is critical of the church is Satanic and/or written by disgruntled apostates or others who do not know the truth. They can be ignored and any reasonable arguments they have are unimportant since they oppose the gospel of Mormonism.

9 - We need to convert the whole world to Mormonism
We believe we must send all our young men from ages 19-22 on missions throughout the world and many of our unmarried daughters. We must also save our money so that when we are older we can go on a mission as a married couple.

10 - By being Mormons we are assured of salvation - even if we are wrong
We believe that even if we are wrong about Mormonism, God will forgive us since we believed in Christ just like the Christians said we should. If we are right, and we know we are, then we will be together forever with our families as gods. Why should we want to be anything other than Mormons since we have all our bases covered?

11 - Since we have the name of Christ in our church - our church is the only true one.
Only the true church would have Christ's name in it. We ignore the fact that the Doctrine and Covenants and other books were published by the church when Joseph Smith had the church renamed for several years as the Church of the Latter-day Saints.

12 - We believe in the Book of Mormon
We believe in a book which has no archeological support whatsoever and claim it is a religious record of various peoples who populated the Americas for over 2600 years from around 2200 BC to 420 AD. We believe that the second group of people who occupied the Americas were Jewish and spoke Hebrew and kept their records in reformed Egyptian. These people also numbered in the millions and somehow they left no tangible proof of their existence. Some Mormons believe that in the near future the leaders of the church will admit that the peoples the book describes are fictional, but maintain that the book still contains religious truths.

13 - The fruits of Mormonism prove it is the true church
We believe by manipulating statistics we can show we have a superior belief system. We disregard statistics which are embarrassing to our position such as the high divorce rate in Utah.

14 Since there are people who oppose our beliefs - our beliefs must be true
We believe that those who write against us and assail our beliefs are proof that we are the only true church. Only the true church would have anything bad said about it. The Devil fights against the truth.

 

[racquetman]

13 - The fruits of Mormonism prove it is the true church
We believe by manipulating statistics we can show we have a superior belief system. We disregard statistics which are embarrassing to our position such as the high divorce rate in Utah.

14 Since there are people who oppose our beliefs - our beliefs must be true
We believe that those who write against us and assail our beliefs are proof that we are the only true church. Only the true church would have anything bad said about it. The Devil fights against the truth.

This is hilarious!!

I believe by manipulating statistics that I am right about everything - in fact, I believe that I am God. I'll just count my vote and throw out everyone elses. And since most of you will try and refute my claim, you are just proving me right, because you are all clearly influenced by the devil.

I work with one Mormon and he is pretty much the least intelligent person I know. Coincidence? After reading some of these articles I think probably not.

** sorry, just poking fun at some of this stuff **

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

We believe that when the Prophet, the head of our church, says something that is definitely wrong he was not being inspired at that time. He was only speaking as a man. We believe that the newer Prophets can override the older Prophets.

Well thats true of any organization

 

[mtrycrafts]

Why is this such a big deal? I mean on one hand this country was founded on god. On the other, religion shouldn't be taught in public schools. As a democratic society we should just vote on it. That is why all of these libs are trying to legislate from the bench, they can't win elections. All of these people screaming bloody murder over all of these BS issues are destroying this country. Too much individualism, not enough cohesiveness as a collective. No wonder the terrorists think they can win, we are totally polarized over stupid issues.

Was it really founded on that? Or, just religious people, some of them, not all, created a constitution acceptable by the continental congress?
The letters and private writings by the signatories tell a different story.

 

[mtrycrafts]

What are you getting at with this? While it's true that many of the founders were devout Christians, I don't see tons of religious references in the documents that officially founded this nation. And while I agree that we need to make bigger deals out of "real" issues that are much more pertinent, I also think that it's important we don't become a theistic state. I feel that there is already too much religion governing decisions in our government, as well as too many laws that are based in religion (EG Blue Laws prohibiting drinking on Sunday till afternoon).

Some of the writers were not religious at all.

As to too much religion in government, you are absolutely correct, again. How is our form of theistic state different from others of different beliefs, and some we are at war with? No different, except that it is not our form of theism.

 

[mtrycrafts]

This country was most definitely NOT founded on god.

Tell that to the current boss

It was founded by humans and at the time there were more aetheists (percentage wise) living in the USA then, as opposed to today.

Not a good sign of things to come.

The founding fathers, worked hard to avoid verbage that portrayed any specific god or religion - our Creator(s) are our own choosing.

How about our parents the creators

In SCIENCE classes, science founded on science should be taught.

Yep, absolutely. The principles of science, what a scientific theory is, falsifiable hypothesis, etc.

Creationism is not founded on scientific priniciples, which excludes it from that particular venue in public schools.

A belief is not science. And, it cannot be falsified, hence, it is not science.


Though, I'm not sure, with how much IS missing from the data, how many details of evolution can be taught either.


All of it can be taught. One only has to read, or read about what Darwin really wrote about, not how much has been distorted.

Did you know that Evolution is not even mentioned in his book, 'On the Origins of Species by Natural Selection.'
Nowhere in it talks about our descent from the monkey either, just a common ancestry

but certainly, when my son is required to attend a school that my taxes pay for, I don't want any religious concepts taught as 'fact'. In a philosophy class? Certainly! Have those open discussions and question, grow, and learn.

Yes again.

But, religion is taught as doctrine. It is made up of absolutes. Learning is rarely full of absolutes.

Isn't it. Absolutes in a natural universe. Maybe in the supernatural one?


Two seriously poor decisions by Congress were the changing of the Pledge of Allegiance to include the words "under God" and to make "In God We Trust" one of our mottos - to include on all currency. The original words were much more honest to what the founding fathers intended. One nation, indivisible. From many - one. E Pluribus Unum.

The Pledge was written in the late 1800s or early 1900s, amended twice at least during the period of fear of the communist USSR. Does that remind you of another period of fear mongering? Today, perhaps?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Take a look at the Dollar bill.

All of the basic laws are based on religion. The 10 commandments are the basis for our modern government. This is where the moral compass comes from.

You mean the founding fathers were not smart enough to develop their moral compass but had to steal it from the bible? Why could then not be parallel? Of course it can be.
But, by your thinking, the Pledge should be returned to its original form, right? Delete those word of reference to God, no? It certainly was not in the original.