Intelligent Design ruling

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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
gnagel said:
I don't see why both viewpoints aren't presented to students--along with some of the strengths and weaknesses of each position. IMO, neither the evolution nor the intelligent design stance has been proven.
gnagel said:
Oh, they do in a philosophy class where this comparison belongs.

Personally, I believe that God used the process of evolution to create the life forms that exist today. Why can't religion and science live in harmony?

Religion has lived in harmony until the zealots wanted their way. Even the last Pope has accepted Evolution. But, the politics of this is hindering and harming everything.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

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rjbudz said:
and that it makes sense to offer both of these 'theories' for open discussion. [/b]

Excuse me???
Which scientific theories are are you talking about??? Be very careful. There is only one definition of a scientific theory that does not include guessing, beliefs, suppositions, etc.




But there is that little matter left to us by our forefathers...namely, the separation of church and state. It's in the constitution.

As it should be, no? Or, how would we be different from the Taliban?

I believe this matter will make it to the Supreme Court for final definition of what is 'religious' and what is not.


I believe this too as I am not psychic.:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

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Clint DeBoer said:
get any sort of criticism of evolution and alternative theory - ..

Which alternate scientific theories are you implying? There are none in the scientific world! Nothing to discuss.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Perhaps...

But I don't think so. I remember being far more afraid of Russians and nuclear war growing up than I ever do today. Iraq doesn't scare me, Muslims don't scare me.

Frankly, about the only thing I fear most is the degradation of the foundation on which this country was founded by narrow minded people who are trying to force their one brand of religion on all of America. Those who don't stand up and say "You failed? Get over it and try harder next time!" Those who complain of unequal treatment, then open 8a companies... Those who complain - because WELFARE isn't giving them enough.

Our country and our weak leaders scare me far more than any foreign threat and I strongly believe that anyone that wants the job of president should never be the one to hold that job and even moreso, any person that actually can be ELECTED to be president will never be qualified for the job. This seems to being proven more and more each and every election.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
miklorsmith said:
And, saying "the latest science clearly says evolution is impossible" cannot be a thorough statement of the science. Says who? The Christian Science Monitor?

There is no such latest science, just the latest pseudo junk science.
In fact, each day that passes, the evolution gats more factual, period. One only has to discuss it with the evolutionary development biology(evo Devo for short:D ) scientists.
The principles of descent by modofocation of development is crystal clear.:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

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gene said:
There is no reason to not believe in a higher power that created/caused life and evolution. .

No evidence exists. ZEro. Enough for me.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

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Clint DeBoer said:
The author of the concept is Michael Behe, a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University.
Clint DeBoer said:
Oh, yes, I was waiting for his name to pop up, LOL. What a joke.:D
Make it simple for you. Pick up the Nov/Dec 05 issue of Skeptical Inquirer. It should be enough to run away from that joker as fast as you can. He is a lone voice in his own wilderness, nothing more. Who said that because there might be an irreducible complexity, yet to be proven, just his hypothesis, causes the follow on to intelligent design? Was it peer reviewed?

Actually, this Irreducible complexity is proof of a very poor design who know absolutely nothing with such a flawed design that all it takes is one protein to collapse the structure. We can build better bridges than that.


The basic idea is that the generally accepted scientific theory that life evolved through biological evolution by natural selection alone is incomplete and flawed and that some additional mechanism is required to explain the origins of life.


That is only HIS idea, not an accepted scientific fact. Which peer process did he submit his paper to? Which Journal? No, it is his book alone, no peer review at all. Sorry, that is not a theory. How did he try to falsify it?



An irreducibly complex system is one which could not possibly have been formed by successive, slight modifications to a functional precursor system because without all of the elements, the system isn't beneficial.

And an Intelligent design would create such a complex system that only one part will render it useless??? I would say otherwise and that is what hes peers are saying. Just have to read their works on it, or a short glimpse in the above issue;)



This, plus the widely accepted age of the earth (4.5 billion years) - to me - doesn't allow for evolution to be possible.


False premise. The first is not established, not the age. Second, one has only to ask credible biologists beyond Behe. They will tell you otherwise.




This is obviously up for debate - but that's pretty much where I lean and why.

Not debated in the evolutionary development biology, nothing to debate. Behe is just plain wrong. Interesting speculations by him, nothing more. I go with the rest of the field, not one lone wolf and certainly not Dembski who has doubt about Behe's logic.
But, I would offer Scott Gilbert, a biologist at Swarthmore College and author of the leading college text of developmental biology and accomplished historian of embryology and evolutionary biology:

" To creationists, the synthesis of evolution and genetics cannot explain how some fish became amphibians, how some reptiles became mammals, or how some apes became human... Behe named this inability to explain the creation of a new taxa through genetics 'Darwin's Black Box.' When the box is opened, he expects evidence of a Deity to be found. However, inside Darwin's black box resides merely another type of genetics- developmental genetics."

this developmental genetics is shedding new light on the making of complexity and the evolution of diversity for twenty years now. Some just refuse to see it. What else is new. I see a great parallel in audio. LOL :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

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rjbudz said:
I'm not sure what an "irreducibly complex system" is. :confused: There is really no such thing.
rjbudz said:
Behe didn't define it either, LOL:D And it makes no sense to many evolutionary biologists and other scientists.



You say it (the organization that's going to disorganize) was God's doing, because the organization necessary to build our incredibly complex universe/galaxy/solar system/living phylogenesis can't happen in such a short time given your understanding of nature and it's organizational properties.

We could ask him how long he thinks it should take? Based on what evidence?:D

...Chaos Theory. Back to the example of the universe...how to explain scientifically the organization of galaxies, of star systems and solar systems (and any attendant life forms) amidst all that disorganization for the Big Bang? It has been proven beyond shadow of doubt that these systems MUST form because of random events...the very random events you say cannot possibly explain the complexity.

Proof positive that this 'irreducibly complex system' must be random, not designed.:D


I think Behe needs to go back and think about his book and delete it from circulation?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

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Rob Babcock said:
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823


Lastly, what if he did indeed subscribe to your point of view? Jefferson was one of the framers, but not the only one. The US wasn't built upon the superstitions and whims of any one man but an ideal. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I often disagree with the High Court's interpretation of the Constitution, but unless you specialize in Constitutional law in addition to engineering (;) ) I don't think you can claim to authoritatively state that the modern concept of the seperation of church and state isn't what the founders had in mind.

In summary, discount evolution if you want. But don't substitute pretend science in its place.;)

Great post, thank you. You are more eloquent than me, for sure.:D

But now I think he pulled a fast one on all of us. This was a test from him.
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

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Nick250 said:
Ain't that the truth. And perosnally I don't really care where the Pres puts his wee-wee as long as he does right by the country. Just about all of the great leaders have gotten a little something (or alot) on the side. It goes with the territory IMO.

Nick

Edit: A bit off topic, but what the hell.

Didn't Jefferson had similar issues? LOL:D And, HE has his name on the original document. Clinton just a wanna be copy cat:D
 
mtrycrafts

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The Dukester said:
Personally, I think that Buckeye is trying to one-up Sheep on the long, controversial thread.;)
Don't remember Sheeps post but Buckey sure did a great job, and I appreciate him bringing this to my attention as I was king of following what in the world was going on in PA.:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

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furrycute said:
Think about it this way, where did "God" or that "Intelligent Designer" come from? Popped out of thin air? Or they themselves were designed by some other higher beings? Then who designed those higher beings? Some other higher higher beings? So who is the very first higher being that designed everything else? And where did he/she/it come from?

Or, is it a he, she or it? Still living and designing? Who designed the designer? How many are or were there? Where does it live? Is it a natural being or a supernatural one? Why is he a designer in the first place? Are there other jobs as we understand on that platform? No answers. :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

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Revelator said:
Excuse me, I just discovered this new belief system on how the earth was created. I'd like to have this taught in the public school science classes. Is there some method or system I can implement that will allow this to be taught to my children? Here's some information on my widely accepted belief system for your consideration.

http://www.venganza.org

Please review this website for the criteria of my new belief system and please ask our freedom of religion Government to allow this to be taught side by side with creationism as I find it equally as pertinent.

Thank you,

Concerned Parent

Just present it to your local school board. Stranger things has passed. LOL, thanks. :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

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Buckeyefan 1 said:
Sheep,

I only hope to God Mtry doesn't see that. ;)

Well, for a while you came close. :D After all, 180 posts to read is too much for me, LOL.
But then, now I am confusing Gene and Clint's posting:mad:
Is one pulling the wool over our eyes by being the devil's advocate? Oh, it is so confusing.
Oh, back to the original comment, no comment:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

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Sheep said:
Not that kind of faith. I mean people need to beleive in science more.

Look at my post, does it look like I support that 'faith'? :rolleyes:

SheepStar

Hey, I don't mind being the whipping boy. It is kind of fun LOL:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

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furrycute said:
Or it is just as likely that earth is some alien species' cattle farm.:eek:

Hey, that explains all the alien abduction. Finally a real answer.:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

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rjbudz said:
Cosmologists are searching for the Grand Unification Theory (otherwise known as GUT) which may answer all your questions. It will tie all the forces of nature together in a model that can finally explain and predict the behavior of the universe. It's not without hope. But if it's discovered, it will be natural and provable...unlike I.D. which invokes mystical elements.

Yes, but in time. :D after all, the universe is around 15 billion years old, and some want instant answers. LOL I blame that on the marketeers brainwashing most of the population to want and need the instant this and that.:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

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furrycute said:
We have a LONG way to go before we can comprehend the forces at work in this universe. Homo sapiens may not even survive to that day.

To understand 15 billion years of work in just a few hundred or thousand years is a bit too much to ask, wouldn't you say? :D
We may never have all the answers. So what?
 
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