Intelligent Design ruling

[Buckeyefan 1]

Gene's brother: ...we are a country of plurality that's being forced into singularity regarding a so-called dominant religious paradigm - the main problem I see here is when one religion asserts itself as the dominant view at the exclusion of the many!

Well put! It's futile trying to convince those who take the Bible word for word to accept anything but Creationism. Doing so means they cannot accept the founding reason for their religion - accepting the entire Bible is the Word of God, word for word.

 

[furrycute]

No one knows what happened before the Big Bang. The laws of physics operating present day in this universe only began sometime after (moments after) the Big Bang. So to explain events before the Big Bang, entirely new branches of physics will have to be created.

I don't see why all this has to be supernatural. Perhaps some chance disturbance before time triggered the Big Bang. Who knows.

If you insist on the supernatural cause of the Big Bang. Then tell me where did "God" come from?

 

[BMXTRIX]

I know that evolution does not try to explain anything before BIG BANG; however, if you admit that the energy to begin life was not created naturally and was created supernaturally then you are not far off from coming to the conclusion that there is a god.

How can anyone come to this conclusion? This is a wild claim! A guess in the dark that you, nor I, know the answer to. By even making the claim that the energy was not created naturally, implies that you have some sort of additional proof.

This is severe falacy of argument and is not at all scientific or by any means proof of anything. I hear it all the time from people of faith who want to convert others "If you can't explain it, then it must be God." No, if I can't explain it, then I can't explain it - and that is that. The lack of an explanation does not necessitate the need for a supernatural explanation.

It also does not DENY the possibility of a supernatural explanation. It doesn't deny aliens, it doesn't deny God, it doesn't deny the Great Green Gargonzola Bean.

It simply doesn't support it in any way either.

You then say 'The incomplete theory of evolution which has very little scientific evidence' - Yet, it in fact has a considerable amount of scientific evidence for the VERY short period of time that serious research has been able to be conducted. In fact, it is a phenomenal amount of evidence that fully supports evolution and continues to further support it.

BUT: Evolution does not necessitate that creationism isn't still a possibility or deny God. On the first day - the stars... we move on to heaven and earth and the plants and animals and end up with humans... Sounds about right - though the days seem to have been a lot longer back then.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

The more edjekated you become the more semi you realize you are. Wow, the more one learns, the more one learns how much one does not know. Ignorance truly is blissful.

As long as there are gaps, there will always be religion. The hardest gap to fill will be the first gap.

 

[gene]

As long as there are gaps, there will always be religion. The hardest gap to fill will be the first gap.

Yea but we pretty much filled the gaps in cable theory, yet cable soothsayers still exist

 

[The Dukester]

Just a short post to answer a couple questions. Furry...God has always been, is now and forever shall be. Hard to swallow for us linear thinking humans, but hey; even the number line has no end! I have posted before that I am a "big God" believer. Why would anyone want to believe in a god that is not? I would not want to believe in any god that is not all powerfull. To me, putting ANY limit on God would be to say that He is not God, but just perhaps a superbeing with limitations just like us. We look at things from a human perspective while God looks at things from a God persective. We can really not even begin to fathom all that God is. We are created in His image, so we can know God to a degree, but only fully when we meet Him in Glory. Many of you will disagree, but, well, I understand. I posted elsewhere before that to an unbeliever, the ways of God are foolish and a complete mystery. Only AFTER accepting Christ as your Saviour will you begin to understand. I say begin because, as I just mentioned, we will never fully understand it all as long as we are on this earth.

As far as the comment on how a loving God will let bad things happen to us, well here is my take on that. God DOES love us supremely. He loved us so much He sent His son to die for us that upon repenting of our sins and accepting Him as our Saviour, we can live eternaly in Heaven. He also loves us enough to let us decide whether or not we want to make Him our LORD and Saviour. He will not force us to follow Him. BUT!!! God is also HOLY. Sin cannot be left unpunished. Ever since the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden, where all was perfect, we have to live in a sinfull world that is separated from Him. Disease, sickness, disasters and the like are all a result of living in a sinful world. None of this existed in the garden. None will exist in Heaven. Hell awaits those who choose not to accept Christ in this world as a punishment for sin.

In case you have not guessed, yup; I am a pretty conservitve good ol' Southern Baptist Christian. I can also agree with science, however. Only a fool would deny science. I do not beleve that Evoulution has fully explained how the earth was created. I do believe that God can use it to create the world, if He so chooses. What I believe that matters most is that one puts his or her faith in Christ and gives Him the glory for creating the world and all in it, no matter how He chose to create it. Too many people get hung up on trying to figure out how and/or worshiping the creation instead of the Creator. Even the religious elect (the Pharasees) of Jesus' day got hung up on the whys and hows and missed the point of the Law. They were so caught up in following the law to the letter they missed the point of the law. Heck, He even called them a "brood of vipers".

Well, enough for now. My short post turned into way more than I intended.
I'll also say it's good to see many folks here discussing without much finger pointing or bashing individuals.

 

[runninkyle17]

Basically everything The Dukester just said is what I have been trying to get across. However, I did not spend the time or effort to put it as eloquently as The Dukester did. So my hat is off to you. That was a well written post.

Oh yeah, one more little thing for BMXTRIX. I see that you used the word "proof" a lot in your previous post. Well as a scientist and a rationalist, you can never completely prove anything. This is well accepted in scientific and non-scientific fields. You can only define the normal way of things (even if the "normal" way has never changed in recorded history, there is always a possibility that the abnormal event may happen). Hence the saying "nothing is impossible".

Also, my claim is not a wild claim at all. It is more of a logical claim. If energy cannot be created naturally then the only other word that comes to my mind is supernatural. When I think of supernatural, I think of God. So my claim is not wild or difficult to come to at all. I am sure if you took a poll and asked people what they thought about when they heard the word supernatural a lot of them would mention something about a god or God himself. The statement where you said that I cannot say that energy cannot be created naturally without some sort of additional proof, well I stated my "proof". The First Law of Thermodynamics is a fairly wildly accepted scientific law. In order to be a scientific law, it must be throughly researched and the conclusion must be tested. After all the tests and research if the conclusion never fails, then it can be considered a law. This is an accepted scientific practice. Evolution is still a theory last time I checked, so until all the gaps are filled (which in my opinion will not happen) I will continue to put my faith in God.

 

[furrycute]

Maybe there is a God. I just experienced something that saved the rest of my life. A thousand voices rang through my head, but somehow I followed one voice, and that saved me

 

[mike c]

these things CANNOT be proven with evidence, studies, tests, arguments, etc. if these things CAN be proven ... why would we need faith?

for the record ... I feel that there is a God. (yes, just like someone saying his cable made a world of difference in sound)

If we believe in God because we have found some sort of solid evidence that he will throw our asses to hell if we don't ... that's called being smart, and not being faithful.

that being said, I have always believed religion and politics are the worst topics for conversation.

 

[Revelator]

Religion is NOT of God

I'd like to remind everyone about this important fact since I've seen the two confused several times.

Faith is God's quest for a closer relationship with man.

Religion is simply man's quest for God. What's worse are the religious wrong, ie the fundamentalists, who attempt to enforce religion on man. God's only mission for us is to teach faith, not enforce it. Also, this "intelligent design" terminology is yet another form of religion being applied by the neo-Christian's. The term means nothing.

By mandating the teaching of creationism in science, this is enforcing religion. Unless we become a fundamentalist nation, which with the current Government we are, one better be ready to adopt other religious beliefs of the creation of earth or we have yet again enforced one faith.

By mandating that gay's can not get married, it is enforcing religion.

By mandating that there can be no abortion, it is enforcing religion.

By enforcing environmental rules for large business and using the excuse that God will tend to the earth, it is enforcing religion.

By removing one dictator for torturing his prisoners, and making it allowable for the US to torture prisoners, it is enforcing religion.

God did not command us to enforce religion but He did task us to bring people to faith. If the fundamentalist actually followed God's law, they would comply to this very basic and simple task. Enforcing religion upon the people will result in only turning people away from faith. You can and should not enforce religion. People will come to faith through teaching and discussion.

There is only the 10-commandements and it appears in both the Old Testament and the New Testaments. Any other law is of man and based on these basic's. Jesus himself acknowledged that man will be tempted and not follow the 10-commendents thus the reason for a Savior. Notice how He did not enforce these laws to bring man closer to Him. Why then should we?

Please don't ever confuse faith and religion. This will only have an adverse affect on faith. Leave the bad taste you have on Religion, the Religious Wrong and the fundamentalist and pull together to fight back them, not God. This is why if you are passionate about overthrowing the fundamentalist who are enforcing religion, it is EXTREMLY important to get out and vote in ’06. There is a wave of responses here from those who don’t believe in religion. It seriously out ways the fundamentalist view expressed only by Clint. If these numbers are applied to the ’06 vote, it should be more than easy to outvote the clown in chief. Remember, the religious wrong only make up a tiny portion of this country, yet they showed up in waves of churches with buses.

Where the hell were all of us?

 

[The Dukester]

I'd like to remind everyone about this important fact since I've seen the two confused several times.

* Faith is God's quest for a closer relationship with man.

* Religion is simply man's quest for God.

What's worse are the religious wrong, ie the fundamentalists, who attempt to enforce religion on man. God's only mission for us is to teach faith, not enforce it. Also, this "intelligent design" terminology is yet another form of religion being applied by the neo-Christian's. The term means nothing.

1) By mandating the teaching of creationism in science, this is enforcing religion. Unless we become a fundamentalist nation, which with the current Government we are, one better be ready to adopt other religious beliefs of the creation of earth or we have yet again enforced one faith.

2) By mandating that gay's can not get married, it is enforcing religion.

3) By mandating that there can be no abortion, it is enforcing religion.

4) By enforcing environmental rules for large business and using the excuse that God will tend to the earth, it is enforcing religion.

5) By removing one dictator for torturing his prisoners, and making it allowable for the US to torture prisoners, it is enforcing religion.

God did not command us to enforce religion but He did task us to bring people to faith. If the fundamentalist actually followed God's word, they would comply to this very basic and simple task. Enforcing religion upon people will result in only turning people away from faith. Reality has shown that people will come to faith through teaching and discussion, not the enforcement of rules. Rule enforcement continues to show the adverse result yet they continue to blindly apply it. Their assumption of being Holy and following the truth is sadly misguided and displays a very weak mind with little ability to apply logic and compassion.

There are only the 10-commandements and they appears in both the Old Testament and the New Testaments. Any other law is of man and based and are oddly enough, based on the 10-commanddements. God himself acknowledged that man will be tempted and not follow the 10-commendents thus the reason for a Savior. Notice how He did not enforce these laws to bring man closer to Him. Why then should we?

Please don't ever confuse faith and religion. This will only have an adverse view of faith as seen throughout this thread. Leave the bad taste you have on Religion, the Religious Wrong and the fundamentalist and pull together to fight back them, not God.

This is why if you are passionate about overthrowing the fundamentalist who are enforcing their religious belief system, it is EXTREMLY important to get out and vote in ’06. There is a wave of responses here from those who don’t believe in religion. It seriously out numbers of the fundamentalist view expressed primarily through Clint. If these numbers are applied to the ’06 vote, it should be more than easy to outvote the clown in chief. Remember, the religious wrong only make up a tiny portion of this country, yet they showed up in waves through churches on buses and groups of them who pre-planned their voting privileges.

Where the hell were all of us?

I would tend to disagree with a goodly portion of this. Faith is the means by which we come to know Christ, not His quest to know us better. One must believe on His son, Jesus for salvation for it is by His shed blood that we are saved, so faith in this leads us to salvation. We were created for relationship, however. That is the purpose of our being; to know and glorify God.

There IS a huge difference in religion and faith! Well said! As mentioned above, the Pharasees had religion but not faith.

I am personally very proud of our President and what he stands for. Hail to the Chief!

As far as your 1-5 points, well, they no more enforce religion on mankind anymore than the 10 commandments (the Law) which you state we should follow. God knew we could never comletely follow them, but gave them to us for many reasons. Some are as follows

1) To show man his sinfullness.

2) For us to live by as best we can with His help

3) For all who do not know Him to be judged by at the end.

4) Perhaps the most important, to point us to Jesus who DID live by all the
commandments. Without doing so, He could not have been the perfect sacrifice required for the penalty of sin.

I will agree that there are zealots that try to force folks to believe and I think they are in error. As you mentioned, Jesus did not try to force himself on us. He did go about spreading the word that He is the saviour, the only Son of God. As Christians we are compelled and indeed mandated by God to spread the gospel to the world. Spread/proclaim, yes. Force, no.

You are right about the nonbelievers way outnumbering the believers here! At least the ones that have posted. There may be some closet Christians looking in, however. If so, where is your boldness? Jesus said that if you are afraid to confess Him before men He will not confess you before his Father in Heaven.

I will be going out of state with little access to computers (staying with my uncle who barely has electricity...jk) so I'll leave it with you all for now. I wish a very Merry Christmas to all here. May we all pause in our busy schedules to contemplte the reason for the season and allow His peace that passes all understanding flood our souls. May this be the year that someone here gives Jesus the best gift of all....yourself.

Duke

 

[The Dukester]

Off topic

Oopps! Almost forgot...thanks Gene, Clintand the gang for a really great site and for all the hard work! Can't wait to see the reports from the show! Rest up and have a safe journey! Really intrested in hearing about the new DTS and 1080p sets!

 

[mulester7]

I would tend to disagree with a goodly portion of this. Faith is the means by which we come to know Christ, not His quest to know us better. One must believe on His son, Jesus for salvation for it is by His shed blood that we are saved, so faith in this leads us to salvation. We were created for relationship, however. That is the purpose of our being; to know and glorify God.

There IS a huge difference in religion and faith! Well said! As mentioned above, the Pharasees had religion but not faith.

I am personally very proud of our President and what he stands for. Hail to the Chief!

As far as your 1-5 points, well, they no more enforce religion on mankind anymore than the 10 commandments (the Law) which you state we should follow. God knew we could never comletely follow them, but gave them to us for many reasons. Some are as follows

1) To show man his sinfullness.

2) For us to live by as best we can with His help

3) For all who do not know Him to be judged by at the end.

4) Perhaps the most important, to point us to Jesus who DID live by all the
commandments. Without doing so, He could not have been the perfect sacrifice required for the penalty of sin.

I will agree that there are zealots that try to force folks to believe and I think they are in error. As you mentioned, Jesus did not try to force himself on us. He did go about spreading the word that He is the saviour, the only Son of God. As Christians we are compelled and indeed mandated by God to spread the gospel to the world. Spread/proclaim, yes. Force, no.

You are right about the nonbelievers way outnumbering the believers here! At least the ones that have posted. There may be some closet Christians looking in, however. If so, where is your boldness? Jesus said that if you are afraid to confess Him before men He will not confess you before his Father in Heaven.

I will be going out of state with little access to computers (staying with my uncle who barely has electricity...jk) so I'll leave it with you all for now. I wish a very Merry Christmas to all here. May we all pause in our busy schedules to contemplte the reason for the season and allow His peace that passes all understanding flood our souls. May this be the year that someone here gives Jesus the best gift of all....yourself.

Duke

.....Amen, and Amen, Duke......

 

[mulester7]

The truth is that there is more science behind the study of intelligent design than evolution simply because evolutionist scientists are very often taking what few observable facts they have and "bending them" to fit their theory, instead of following the scientific method and studying the wealth available data "as is"

.....and yes....excellent....

 

[miklorsmith]

Fourteen pages in and no personal BS. Kudos again, people. I wish I wasn't at work so I could really dive in.

Have you heard the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (book version) of the last transaction between God and [man]?

They are having a little discussion about the nature of faith vs. science. In a deeply ironic puff of logic, God realizes that by showing Himself to man, he has "proven" his existence. He relies on "faith" to bring His word to man. Proof obviates faith, and *pop* God ceases to exist.

Funny stuff - just a break for all the sweaty keyboards.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

There are only the 10-commandements and they appears in both the Old Testament and the New Testaments. Any other law is of man and based and are oddly enough, based on the 10-commanddements. God himself acknowledged that man will be tempted and not follow the 10-commendents thus the reason for a Savior. Notice how He did not enforce these laws to bring man closer to Him. Why then should we?

Actually, there are 613 commandments found in the Old Testament. God gave 613 commandments to Moses. There are 3 commandments in Genesis, 111 in Exodus, 247 in Leviticus, 52 in Numbers and 200 in Deuteronomy. These included 365 prohibitions -- a number equal to the nominal number of days in the year. Also included 248 positive commandments.

Some of the more interesting:

Slavery was permitted in the Old Testament.

The code requires:

-a child to be killed if he/she curses their parent (Leviticus 20:9)
-all persons guilty of adultery to be killed (20:10)
-the daughter of a priest who engages in prostitution to be burned alive until dead (21:9)
-the bride of a priest to be a virgin (21:13)
-ritual killing of animals, using cattle, sheep and goats (22:19)
-observation of 7 feasts: Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Firstfruits, Feast of Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles (23)
-a person who takes the Lord's name in vain is to be killed (24:16)

The code prohibits:

-heterosexual intercourse when a woman has her period (Leviticus 18:19),
-harvesting the corners of a field (19:9),
-eating fruit from a young tree (19:23),
-cross-breeding livestock (19:19),
-sowing a field with mixed seed (19:19),
-shaving or getting a hair cut (19:27),
-tattoos (19:28),
-even a mildly disabled person from becoming a priest (21:18),
-charging of interest on a loan (25:37),
-collecting firewood on Saturday to prevent your family from freezing,
-wearing of clothes made from a blend of textile materials; today this might be cotton and polyester, and
-eating of non-kosher foods (e.g. shrimp).

Any questions?

 

[Sheep]

-ritual killing of animals, using cattle, sheep and goats (22:19)

Again you attack me Buck. What did I do?

SheepStar

 

[Sheep]

OK, lets sum this thread up.

I heard this on the news.
I agree (ME )
Some more rambling about theory.
Buttloads of links posted (Gene, I'm looking at you)
More links.
More talk about theory.
Buckeye attacked me

All in a friendly manner. Well my thread was longer, this one is clean. Sorta like my thread is a subwoofer that extends deeper, but this thread is a subwoofer that has less THD and GD. Hmmm.

If theres one religion I have respect for, its Johova's(TYPO) Witnesses. They don't vote. They're the one religion to realize that god and government don't mix.

Now, does this thread have to keep going? Its just one big "Agree to Disagree".

SheepStar

 

[miklorsmith]

Yes it does. . .

 

[miklorsmith]

Are you getting. . .