Intelligent Design ruling

[miklorsmith]

Jaxvon - You're a classy individual and not sinking to the level of personal attack shows it.

We can say whatever we want about whoever we want. It's called free speech. And democracy. If the whole nation rises in voice, the government might listen. Bottom's up. Otherwise, how will the government know how to Represent the Will of the People - their one and only job.

Otherwise, the only alternative is to assume their personal opinions are the will of the people, a tremendous inaccuracy.

And if ever there was an administration deserving of a reality check, it's this one.

Sorry for derailing the train, please resume.

 

[furrycute]

Many people still have doubts to this very day if our current leader was indeed democractically elected in the first place, both in 2000 and in 2004.

And the war should have ended with Afganistan. We created our own Iraq problem.




And by any chance have you ever heard our glorious leader speak on national television? What kind of impression did he leave you with? I always thought our glorious leader sounded rather dim witted.

I stand corrected, sorry jax.

not sorry furrycute.

and no it was necessary. I haven’t spent the last 17 years of my life defending this country to hear people degrade our leaders. Maybe that’s part of this countries problems, all you people that sit and complain instead of doing something about it. I personally didn’t like some things previous presidents have done, but that is no reason to call them stupid or faulted. They all must have some qualities to become the elected leader of the free world.

 

[Nick250]

I am not too sure the current president accomplished this. Personally, I am embarrased for our country each time he speaks publicly

Ain't that the truth. And perosnally I don't really care where the Pres puts his wee-wee as long as he does right by the country. Just about all of the great leaders have gotten a little something (or alot) on the side. It goes with the territory IMO.

Nick

Edit: A bit off topic, but what the hell.

 

[Audioholics]

There certainly are a lot of thoughts about archaeopteryx, however I would not, as an evolutionist, cling to tightly to that transitional form. Was it cold-blooded, warm-blooded - there's a lot of debate on exactly what it was as I understand it. From what I've read I think it was a bird.

I just look at the duck-billed platypus and wonder what people may have thought of that if it was dug up as a very old fossil.

We'd likely have 350+ peer-reviewed books written by very well respected scientists about a new path of evolution involving birds and mammals.

As far as microevolution - nobody (sane) disputes that - but microevolution and macroevolution are not at all the same thing. Microevolution typically describes things that are already predisposed in the genetic code. Microevolution is how you can breed small and large horses in a very short aount of time, or how you can see changes in fruit flies in a short amount of time, or Darwin's finches... It does not explain or have anything to do with how a lizard grew wings and became a bird. Again, is it punctuated or gradual? Or both, perhaps?

Some things are not easily explained by gradual change over time. That's why punctuated equilibrium is so popular - it bypasses this problem (though for some reason, depending upon the discussion angle, gradual change and natural selection are still brought up when it is convenient). But then you have to deal with the math again - how many beneficial mutations ("hopeful monsters" as I've heard them called) do you need to happen to get where we are in about 1-2 billion years' time?

Most mutations (and I do mean most) are not beneficial (several examples have already been given in this thread of diseases, harmful bacterium, cancer... none of which are beneficial.) And if one beneficial mutation manages to make it through and gets eaten by a predator? Well, we need to start over and wait another 10,000 years... or 1 million years for a big comet, I dunno.

 

[furrycute]

We have had 4.5 BILLION years, that's 4.5 followed by 9 zeros, that's a LOT of time.

Think about it this way, where did "God" or that "Intelligent Designer" come from? Popped out of thin air? Or they themselves were designed by some other higher beings? Then who designed those higher beings? Some other higher higher beings? So who is the very first higher being that designed everything else? And where did he/she/it come from?

 

[furrycute]

It is true that we know nothing beyond the Big Bang. God could have popped into existence the moment the Big Bang happened. But what gave rise to that Big Bang? A higher God? But then what gave rise to that higher God and his/her/its reality?

Perhaps I am mired in thinking linearly. I simply cannot accept that something has always been there, with no beginning and no end. I can accept the end leads to the beginning. But I cannot accept that something is always there.

For all we know this entire universe could be some higher being's science experiment. And that there are billions upon billions of other universes existing alongside ours in this gigantic cosmic experiment.

 

[Tomorrow]

It is true that we know nothing beyond the Big Bang. God could have popped into existence the moment the Big Bang happened. But what gave rise to that Big Bang? A higher God? But then what gave rise to that higher God and his/her/its reality?

Perhaps I am mired in thinking linearly. I simply cannot accept that something has always been there, with no beginning and no end. I can accept the end leads to the beginning. But I cannot accept that something is always there.

For all we know this entire universe could be some higher being's science experiment. And that there are billions upon billions of other universes existing alongside ours in this gigantic cosmic experiment.

Cosmologists are searching for the Grand Unification Theory (otherwise known as GUT) which may answer all your questions. It will tie all the forces of nature together in a model that can finally explain and predict the behavior of the universe. It's not without hope. But if it's discovered, it will be natural and provable...unlike I.D. which invokes mystical elements.

 

[gene]

Straw Man Argument Against Macro Evolution

Anti-evolutionists argue that there has been no proof of macroevolutionary processes. However, synthesists claim that the same processes that cause within-species changes of the frequencies of alleles can be extrapolated to between species changes, so this argument fails unless some mechanism for preventing microevolution causing macroevolution is discovered.

Since every step of the process has been demonstrated in genetics and the rest of biology, the argument against macroevolution fails. Sorry ID folks, but keep trying

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

It is true that we know nothing beyond the Big Bang. God could have popped into existence the moment the Big Bang happened. But what gave rise to that Big Bang? A higher God? But then what gave rise to that higher God and his/her/its reality?

I'm sure we'll find out in the next life (assuming we don't become worm meal).
Did Mulester share this recently? http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/

Whether you're into God or not, it's a neat presentation - especially for parents.

 

[The Dukester]

To me, this begs the question: If there is/was not a creator, then where did the matter that formed the earth come from? When did time start?
Sounds like many here are thinking linearly.
ID makes perfect sense to me. Whether or not the earth was created in a literal or figurative seven days (to God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day) makes little difference. Belief in the fact that He created it and is who He says he is does, however.

It is true that we know nothing beyond the Big Bang. God could have popped into existence the moment the Big Bang happened. But what gave rise to that Big Bang? A higher God? But then what gave rise to that higher God and his/her/its reality?

Perhaps I am mired in thinking linearly. I simply cannot accept that something has always been there, with no beginning and no end. I can accept the end leads to the beginning. But I cannot accept that something is always there.

For all we know this entire universe could be some higher being's science experiment. And that there are billions upon billions of other universes existing alongside ours in this gigantic cosmic experiment.

 

[furrycute]

To me, this begs the question: If there is/was not a creator, then where did the matter that formed the earth come from? When did time start?

Then I ask where did "God" come from?

 

[furrycute]

Cosmologists are searching for the Grand Unification Theory (otherwise known as GUT) which may answer all your questions. It will tie all the forces of nature together in a model that can finally explain and predict the behavior of the universe. It's not without hope. But if it's discovered, it will be natural and provable...unlike I.D. which invokes mystical elements.

We have a LONG way to go before we can comprehend the forces at work in this universe. Homo sapiens may not even survive to that day.

The only way to predict physical behavior is to construct a model. The more closely the model approximates reality, the better the prediction. Perhaps we, this planet, this galaxy, or even this universe, is someone's construct to understand the meaning of his own existence.

 

[Nick250]

Some disjointed thoughts:

Barbara Walters interviewed the Dalai Lama last night and asked him he would like say to the viewers of the interview. "Be warm hearted and have compassion" was the answer.

The other thing about this God discussion is that it brings me to the same place as I always find myself in when discussing God. First I really want to believe in God and envy the peace such beliefs bring others. But then I start thinking about the Holocaust, aids in Africa, ethnic cleansing etc. and I just can't reconcile those events and a loving God. I just can't get past it. Another thing I can't get past is why the hell am I sitting on my butt writing on the Internet when so much needs to be done for those less fortunate than me. Or why the Catholic church has untold billions in cash and valuable antiques and there is so much that good Christens should be doing with those recourses. Why are we not doing more for our fellow man.

 

[furrycute]

There are men far holier than Dalai Lama who shun the fame and fortune our "holy" Lama has garnered over the years.

I have some really hard beans to grind with the Catholic Church with regard to its history. The crusades, the Inquisition, Galileo, etc. Had the Church not meddled in the development of Europeans, we probably would have had the Industrial Revolution 500 years earlier.

 

[Sheep]

Wow, This got to 100 posts quite fast.

Now, can you beat 322 posts?

SheepStar

 

[miklorsmith]

Not to pile on, but Christian ideas have spread around the world only through people - when a group of people convinces another that their previous ideas are wrong. The crusades are an excellent example, but to this day, missionaries are carrying the word to the furtherest reaches of the planet.

Why is this important? I have a very hard time believing that everyone else was given the wrong idea by their own Creator. How many followers of non-Christian faiths are there in the world? Do you think more or fewer than our brand? Any idea what their faiths say about [ours]?

How are we all to be sorted when we meet our Maker? Men of the cloth who commit unspeakable ills upon children - how will they be judged? How about the agnostic man who helps at the soup kitchen around the holidays? How about village people in Papua New Guinea who are only now being indoctrinated on the true path? Does a man get "in" by seeing the light on his deathbed?

We believe what we're taught, and that's not just evolution in science class. You'll find few blonde Muslims in Iowa and equally few Christians in Bagdad. I'd bet a sociologist could fairly accurately predict a person's religious beliefs by their place of birth.

Maybe the difference is that most of the other religions decided what was good for them and that was enough. We decided what was good for us is needed by everyone else.

Furry - I'll add "Purgatory" to your list of historical black eyes.

Sheep - you're cutting your own throat!

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

Actually, there are quite a few Christian churches in Bagdad. Or there were until the radicals started bombing them.

And I believe Christians are a minority in the world if you consider that billions of Chinese and Indians are Budhists and Taoists and that there are another billion or so Muslims.

 

[shokhead]

Monkey see,monkey do.

 

[furrycute]

Furry - I'll add "Purgatory" to your list of historical black eyes.

Sheep - you're cutting your own throat!

Great, now I'm going to "purgatory" for questioning the Christian faith. That's another thing I find questionable about the teachings of Christianity. Too many scare tactics.

 

[goodman]

This discussion has gone on long enough. Obviously, the design is not all that intelligent. An intelligent design would be comprised of easily revovable and replaceable modules. Then you wouldn't have to sit in the dentist's chair for an hour. Remove a couple of clips and screws and your mandible would slide out, exposing the teeth for maintenance, repair or replacement. And the nerves would not be so close to the gums as to cause unneeded pain. And every woman would come with a remote with a pause button! How much more proof do you need?