I'm so angry with the U.S. and Chinese governments right now!

[ichigo]

If you're only counting federal debt, it's $21T of debt to ~$20T of US GDP.

6 trillion of that is intragovernmental debt, so really the headline number is more like 16 trillion.

Most of that debt is a self inflicted wound. Jack Ma mentioned if the U.S. didn't spend 13 trillion on wars since Vietnam it wouldn't have a debt problem and wouldn't have issues funding social services or other needs.

The U.S. has literally the leanest social safety nets in the developed world. If it wasn't an imperalist warmonger state, our debt to GDP would be like 15%.

And like the Roman Empire, our debt problem is intractable because we will keep getting into military quagmires until the government is bankrupt.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Not even a little bit.

As in not defeatist or not "upscalable"?

 

[GO-NAD!]

Taxation is a different thing. Of those economies, only Germany can be considered successful by US standards, and Germany is an export-driven economy that sits pretty under the US security umbrella.

High taxation is not a model to be proud of. It is indicative of a lack of efficiency, IMO. Modeling the US after Europe is not exactly a good idea.

Well, what level of taxation would you consider to be high? Opinions on that will vary. As for efficiency, one could turn that around and say high taxation is required to counter the inefficiency of private markets in providing widespread prosperity, instead of concentrating it within a certain demographic. You do realize that social and economic mobility has been proven to be a fallacy, don't you? The old adage that you can achieve anything if you're smart enough and work hard enough, regardless of where you start from, is BS. We can all give examples of people who started with nothing, but became billionaires, but if you look at the statistics, people usually stay in the socioeconomic demographic they were born in. It's not all about stupid and lazy genes being passed down through the generations either. When wealthy people have greater control of a country's economic policy, it allows them to leverage their influence to their advantage.

Libertarians go on about equal opportunities, not equal outcomes. However, equal opportunities just don't exist "in the wild" unless they are fostered by an entity whose primary goal is to provide widespread prosperity, not concentrating it within the ranks of the wealthy.

This debate has occurred multiple times and it just seems to go in circles, so I don't think I'll add anything else to this one.

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, Huawei has launched a court challenge against the US government's ban against their equipment and China has now accused the two kidnapped (can we seriously call it anything else?) of spying, which is as vague as anything else they've claimed to date.

On separate, but related note:
Why an American's arrest in Russia could set off a 'flight of foreign investors' https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-investment-calvey-fsb-1.5049073

 

[Irvrobinson]

Libertarians go on about equal opportunities, not equal outcomes. However, equal opportunities just don't exist "in the wild" unless they are fostered by an entity whose primary goal is to provide widespread prosperity, not concentrating it within the ranks of the wealthy.

And you'll always lose this debate with me, because your thesis is that wealthy people do not get that way because they are smarter, more ambitious, more risk-taking, or just worked harder. You're saying they get that way because they are favored by national policies. That is such crap. And, personally, I'm sick of the being-working-class-is-noble-and being-rich-is-evil mentality. That's Elizabeth Warren / Bernie Sanders crap, while they are basically non-productive multi-millionaires living in luxury beyond the reach of their constituents. This is all part of the most successful political philosophy of all time - let me show you how your lot in life is not really your fault, it's this other group's fault.

 

[Irvrobinson]

As in not defeatist or not "upscalable"?

Not scalable in the US, IMO. Not even close. I can say this, it must be so nice being Norway.

 

[Irvrobinson]

6 trillion of that is intragovernmental debt, so really the headline number is more like 16 trillion.

Most of that debt is a self inflicted wound. Jack Ma mentioned if the U.S. didn't spend 13 trillion on wars since Vietnam it wouldn't have a debt problem and wouldn't have issues funding social services or other needs.

The U.S. has literally the leanest social safety nets in the developed world. If it wasn't an imperalist warmonger state, our debt to GDP would be like 15%.

And like the Roman Empire, our debt problem is intractable because we will keep getting into military quagmires until the government is bankrupt.

We couldn't agree more.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Entrenched industry, be it health care or not, is certainly a challenge but that can be solved as it has been multiple times before. California, along with a few other US states, have shown a way to go forward on various issues in USA (and elsewhere!).

As for border crossing legal issues for health care and payment: Is that really an issue that can not be solved in USA? We managed that in EU decades ago, despite our considerate differences in health care systems.

Then there is the elephant in the room: Single-payer health care that has an enormous support in the US population in the form of Medicare-for-all. As I understand it, "Obama-care" is essentially a variation of Massachusetts health care reform ("Romney-care") as the Republican answer to single-payer health care. How did that work out? Awful?

I suppose any issues *can* be solved, I just think most of the issues with Medicare for All won't be solved. At least with the ACA it was an extension of the current system, so it was far more easily implementable. I think the Republicans only hate it because it was led by the Democrats, and personally I think they're damned fools for hating it so much, because the alternative, single-payer, is worse for the insurance and healthcare industries.

The ACA (Obamacare) wasn't in place long enough to judge it properly. And since the Republicans gutted it by removing the mandatory coverage provision, we'll probably never know. Personally, I hated the ACA, because it cost me many thousands of dollars in extra taxes, which the Republicans have conveniently kept in place, damn them.

And, again, I think the EU and Europe is a bad example for the US in pretty much every way.

 

[highfigh]

Total debt, as this influences the scope of public private partnerships too.

To be precise, the figures I've seen are $21T for the govt, $27T private debt, which totals $48T in debt against a $20T GDP. So it's more like 240% than 300%.

Any way you measure it, how did we ever let it come to this? (Rhetorical question... the answer is stupid decisions by both parties over 30+ years).

Doesn't hurt quite as much to be stabbed in the back by Congress if they're hugging us at the same time.

 

[highfigh]

I suppose any issues *can* be solved, I just think most of the issues with Medicare for All won't be solved. At least with the ACA it was an extension of the current system, so it was far more easily implementable. I think the Republicans only hate it because it was led by the Democrats, and personally I think they're damned fools for hating it so much, because the alternative, single-payer, is worse for the insurance and healthcare industries.

The ACA (Obamacare) wasn't in place long enough to judge it properly. And since the Republicans gutted it by removing the mandatory coverage provision, we'll probably never know. Personally, I hated the ACA, because it cost me many thousands of dollars in extra taxes, which the Republicans have conveniently kept in place, damn them.

And, again, I think the EU and Europe is a bad example for the US in pretty much every way.

But, isn't the health care insurance industry the reason health care costs are so high? THEY'RE the ones who deny coverage, not the providers. THEY'RE the ones who offer far less to the care providers who then need to raise the amount they charge for that care. They charge a lot less if someone doesn't have insurance and make arrangements or pay cash.

 

[highfigh]

I suppose any issues *can* be solved, I just think most of the issues with Medicare for All won't be solved. At least with the ACA it was an extension of the current system, so it was far more easily implementable. I think the Republicans only hate it because it was led by the Democrats, and personally I think they're damned fools for hating it so much, because the alternative, single-payer, is worse for the insurance and healthcare industries.

The ACA (Obamacare) wasn't in place long enough to judge it properly. And since the Republicans gutted it by removing the mandatory coverage provision, we'll probably never know. Personally, I hated the ACA, because it cost me many thousands of dollars in extra taxes, which the Republicans have conveniently kept in place, damn them.

And, again, I think the EU and Europe is a bad example for the US in pretty much every way.

With Ryan as Speaker, they did nothing to help with Trump's agenda. In fact, it's hard to see what they actually did that helped anything.

 

[GrimSurfer]

It's all partisan politics... paying people off with their own money, pork barrelling, using public office to advance private interest, exploiting international crises as a distraction for domestic issues.

Liberals and conservatives are equally guilty. They both use brand loyalty as a cover for misdeeds.

The quicker voters ditch party affiliations and vote on the basis of record and policy, the quicker we'll see the county get better.

 

[Trell]

And, again, I think the EU and Europe is a bad example for the US in pretty much every way.

You seem like an open minded guy

 

[GO-NAD!]

On a (hopefully) less controversial note, it's a beautiful day for smoking ribs.

 

[Trell]

But, isn't the health care insurance industry the reason health care costs are so high? THEY'RE the ones who deny coverage, not the providers. THEY'RE the ones who offer far less to the care providers who then need to raise the amount they charge for that care. They charge a lot less if someone doesn't have insurance and make arrangements or pay cash.

The US health care insurance industry also owns a large part of the providers, and they are quite busy working on owning the rest.

The above is a problem in EU as well, and strangely enough, even more so in Sweden in various areas. There is a lot of very questionable privatizing of health care where the tax payers hold the note for worse service, so I'll mention something else.

In Sweden there are public corporations, with private equity as major share holders, running for-profit schools (yeah, really, not university/college) whose only (or just about) income is from tax payers. How f*cked up is that?

 

[highfigh]

On a (hopefully) less controversial note, it's a beautiful day for smoking ribs.

ANY day is a great day for ribs. Low and slow, baby! Low and slow.

I baked a shoulder a couple of weeks ago in the oven, partly because I didn't think it was warm enough for wood to burn- came up with a rub that was probably my best, yet. Thinking of adding some ground coffee next time- your thoughts?

 

[highfigh]

The US health care insurance industry also owns a large part of the providers, and they are quite busy working on owning the rest.

In Sweden there are public corporations, with private equity as major share holders, running for-profit schools (yeah, really, not university/college) whose only (or just about) income is from tax payers. How f*cked up is that?

And if they have stockholders, paying for care isn't in their best interest, right? That's why they deny so much, like pre-existing conditions. New, shiny headquarters is an asset and they would rather show that off than pay when treatment or meds are needed.

Lately, Wisconsin has had a lot of naming rights being sold to American Family. How does that help a single policyholder?

And I still see people making comments that the US should be more like Sweden. I hear it's a very nice place, as are Norway, Denmark and others and I actually know people from Denmark & Norway- I guess it's all in the perception and a matter of whether someone is visiting, or a resident. One of them, who is from Denmark, came to the US to head up Jamo and he goes back to visit, but I seriously doubt he would move back.

 

[GO-NAD!]

ANY day is a great day for ribs. Low and slow, baby! Low and slow.

I baked a shoulder a couple of weeks ago in the oven, partly because I didn't think it was warm enough for wood to burn- came up with a rub that was probably my best, yet. Thinking of adding some ground coffee next time- your thoughts?

I've heard of using coffee grounds in rub, but I've never tried it myself. I say give a try, then report back on the results. What rub are you presently using? I generally use rub recipes from here: http://virtualweberbullet.com/best-ribs-in-the-universe-by-mike-scrutchfield.html

I don't know how cold it has to be for wood not to burn, but I'd prefer not to experience it. It was -3 degrees Celsius when I started and it's +3 right now. Couple more hours to go...

 

[Trell]

And if they have stockholders, paying for care isn't in their best interest, right? That's why they deny so much, like pre-existing conditions. New, shiny headquarters is an asset and they would rather show that off than pay when treatment or meds are needed.

Lately, Wisconsin has had a lot of naming rights being sold to American Family. How does that help a single policyholder?

And I still see people making comments that the US should be more like Sweden. I hear it's a very nice place, as are Norway, Denmark and others and I actually know people from Denmark & Norway- I guess it's all in the perception and a matter of whether someone is visiting, or a resident. One of them, who is from Denmark, came to the US to head up Jamo and he goes back to visit, but I seriously doubt he would move back.

Many things are very nice here, and one of them is that loosing health care for oneself and family is not a reason for not changing work place. That said, many things are far from perfect, and yes, the tax burden is too high.

 

[Trell]

I've heard of using coffee grounds in rub, but I've never tried it myself. I say give a try, then report back on the results. What rub are you presently using? I generally use rub recipes from here: http://virtualweberbullet.com/best-ribs-in-the-universe-by-mike-scrutchfield.html

I don't know how cold it has to be for wood not to burn, but I'd prefer not to experience it. It was -3 degrees Celsius when I started and it's +3 right now. Couple more hours to go...

I would love to try this, except that I live in an apartment

 

[GO-NAD!]

I would love to try this, except that I live in an apartment

Yeah...your neighbors might not be happy about that.