I would like to get some opinions. Surge protector/Power conditioner

BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Ok, I looked into the APC units and they are WAY too expensive for what I want. The highest wattage they do was I think 1250 watts which would be ok for now but if I ever wanted to get a more powerful powered sub and or another amp that would no longer suit my needs. And that unit is about $2000 CAD.

So I started looking around on the net and I think I have found a real winner, the Tripp Lite LCR2400. I found it for around $260 US and it has had some really good reviews. Check it out and give me your opinions.....


https://www.tripplite.com/2400w-120v-3u-rack-mount-power-conditioner-automatic-voltage-regulation-avr-ac-surge-protection-14-outlets~LCR2400
I personally like TrippLite products. Not sure which APC you've looked at. UPS is not measured by wattage but VA units - to indicate how much power the battery could sustain - more power - longer power outrage could be sustained.
As for pricing, I've linked to refub APC UPS which at the time was selling on ebay for $130.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
The first question is "why?"

If there is some specific power quality issue you need to address, then seek out appropriate solutions.
I am in Northern Manitoba right now. But that could change. I lived in The Northwest Territories, Nothern Alberta and Northern Saskatchewan.
Spent at least part of each of 27 years, and sometimes up to 30 months continuous near the Nunavit / NWT / SK / MB border confluence. Power there is not part of the grid; a sole line, without interconnection to a power grid that can be brought into use during outages; if it's down across it's 140 mile length, it's down everywhere until it's fixed. Large industrial users on the line, three Native reserves, and small users. Mostly bush, and a single tree across the line during a storm can shut it down.

SaskPower was very good at keeping it up, with quick dispatch of helicopter crews, but partial shorts (trees in the wind, not quite shorting the line) were common. In general, voltage could fall to the 90's and surges when the industrial users came on or off the grid were common. The knife switch at one facility threw an arc three feet long when you moved it towards connection or remained connected via the arc for most of the rotation during shutdown. A nice steady 60 Hz, but then again, sometimes you were on the generator so that goes variable too.

All in all, very bad power for electronic power supplies. So what was the effect?

A computer with CRT display, NAD receiver (vintage) ... the computer I sold after seven years, had 13,500 hours logged on it. Working perfectly. The NAD I still own, works fine. Our office was fully computerized, even back in the late 1980's (yes, I worked on a Compaq Portable, 5" orange character screen, MS-DOS because Windows 3.1, which was the first version that worked, was five years away). They all worked fine.

Fast forward to today and there are a dozen iMacs, a MacOS Server machine, the usual office gear, a full pubic-use 7.1 AV system, electronics through the rooftop, and there is now 3-phase power, same grid, to the site. Everything works just fine, lasts as long, maybe even longer, than expected, no noises, no buzzes.

In fact using a Mac Mini, Audio-gd DAC, and IEMs, it was quieter than the power in my home now, and that is good power.

Power with the interconnected grid (back in the city) is worse, actually, despite that northern grid pushing all the buttons claimed for a power conditioner or regeneration device.

So, short answer, be careful what you buy, you may need nothing, or you may need who-knows-how-much help there. Go across the street and the requirements could change. I would not buy anything without a dealer loan first. Spending big bucks on something you don't need or doesn't work as intended to me is poor economy.

If you're looking to do this kind of thing on the cheap, then hope you don't need much, or any, help, because like everything that is designed for electrical vs electronics use, it's expensive. People get lulled into thinking it's commodity use stuff and because your outlets probably cost the contractor $0.79 a pop that it's all cheap in massive volume, but the second you buy something that is *not* used in massive volume, it's just plain expensive.

It's an industry built on the cost of copper, and cost-plus without blinking is the standard pricing model.

Setting up our power system upgrade from single phase to three phase on a relatively small site cost six figures, and we didn't do anything fancy, and only need the three phase because we use electric heat for safety reasons over wood, and didn't replace 90% of our installed electrical infrastructure.

So I would say if you can't demo it in your house, and if you can't return it at no cost to you if it doesn't work, don't buy it.

RE: Tripp-Lite Their non-desctructive power conditioner (not UPS) protection works on the Hot and Neutral only, no Ground protection. Now, if lightning doesn't strike the wet ground near your home much, might be enough. The competing (similar technology) units (the brand escapes me but someone will chime in) protects all three lines but costs twice as much.
 
Last edited:
Brad2332

Brad2332

Audiophyte
Ok,

I ordered the SurgeX 1115RT. There is a video demonstrating how it ELIMINATES a surge not just suppress it. It also has low and high voltage shut down and RMI/RFI filtration. I also ordered a plug-in voltage meter to plug into the outlet on the front. Just in case the links are no good when someone views this the model number for the voltage meter is AC 80-300V. Also, I got the SurgeX 1115RT for a much better deal than what the link shows. I managed to get two of them on eBay (used but in really good condition) for $100 US each plus $107 US shipping. Here are some links......



VOLTAGE METER ...

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/AC-80-300V-LCD-Digital-Voltage-Meter-Voltmeter-US-Plug-Electric-Pen-Meters-LS/162744937909?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649



SurgeX R1115......

https://www.avshop.ca/sound-amp-pa-audio/power-distribution/surgex-sx-1115rt-9-outlet-15a-power-conditioner

THE VID.......



Here is another vid.....







What do you guys think?
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
.....................
RE: Tripp-Lite Their non-desctructive power conditioner (not UPS) protection works on the Hot and Neutral only, no Ground protection. Now, if lightning doesn't strike the wet ground near your home much, might be enough. The competing (similar technology) units (the brand escapes me but someone will chime in) protects all three lines but costs twice as much.
Bill Whitlock and others suggest that point of use surge suppression should only be between the Hot and Neutral. Because the MOVs would dump noise onto the Safety Ground.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Bill Whitlock and others suggest that point of use surge suppression should only be between the Hot and Neutral. Because the MOVs would dump noise onto the Safety Ground.
Yes, I agree, the Tripp-Lite product is the one I would choose. I haven't actually bought one, but I'm looking. My comment was simply to let the OP know what options he had, not an endorsement. Like everything, it's best to know what's available in the market so that someone can perform their due diligence and make an informed choice.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Ok, I looked into the APC units and they are WAY too expensive for what I want. The highest wattage they do was I think 1250 watts which would be ok for now but if I ever wanted to get a more powerful powered sub and or another amp that would no longer suit my needs. And that unit is about $2000 CAD.

So I started looking around on the net and I think I have found a real winner, the Tripp Lite LCR2400. I found it for around $260 US and it has had some really good reviews. Check it out and give me your opinions.....


https://www.tripplite.com/2400w-120v-3u-rack-mount-power-conditioner-automatic-voltage-regulation-avr-ac-surge-protection-14-outlets~LCR2400
The hospital where I work uses Tripp Lite surge protection for all the hospital equipments. So that's why I also use Tripp Lite at home, although my house does have a whole-house surge protection and a 60kW power generator. :D
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Spartan
I was at a hi-end audio dealer where Keith Martin from Isotek UK ran a demo involving just an LP player and a RIAA stage.

First driving the system directly connected to the power outlet.
Then simply connecting the LP player and the ria stage through an Isotek Solus power conditioner. And darn, it is clear after just a few seconds that the piano sounds much crisper... One of the claims here is that the variations in the voltage in the power outlets even have an effect on the speed of the motor of the LP player, and so regulating the voltage to the LP player has an effect.

Very clearly audible, and it is definitely not something I dream up....

There may be differences from country to country... in Norway we do have a floating ground, which is different from US, so things may be working differently.

Gentlemen, what are the facts here?
There are I guess many things at play here
- Protection, of course...
- Reduction of RFI Noise
- Stabilizing the voltage at exact 220.0000 volt or 110.0000 volt
- Keeping the grounding voltage at 0.000

There are some claims now that where you do have a large concentration of Tesla's charging it serves to destabilize and pollute the electrical power supply and especially creating issues with grounding levels not being at zero anymore, whatever effect that may have.....

Furman makes some balanced power conditioners, but they are pretty hefty on the wallet... Any good insights here please. I want to do something here but I am not prepared to drain my wallet :D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I was at a hi-end audio dealer where Keith Martin from Isotek UK ran a demo involving just an LP player and a RIAA stage.

First driving the system directly connected to the power outlet.
Then simply connecting the LP player and the ria stage through an Isotek Solus power conditioner. And darn, it is clear after just a few seconds that the piano sounds much crisper... One of the claims here is that the variations in the voltage in the power outlets even have an effect on the speed of the motor of the LP player, and so regulating the voltage to the LP player has an effect.

Very clearly audible, and it is definitely not something I dream up....

There may be differences from country to country... in Norway we do have a floating ground, which is different from US, so things may be working differently.

Gentlemen, what are the facts here?
There are I guess many things at play here
- Protection, of course...
- Reduction of RFI Noise
- Stabilizing the voltage at exact 220.0000 volt or 110.0000 volt
- Keeping the grounding voltage at 0.000

There are some claims now that where you do have a large concentration of Tesla's charging it serves to destabilize and pollute the electrical power supply and especially creating issues with grounding levels not being at zero anymore, whatever effect that may have.....

Furman makes some balanced power conditioners, but they are pretty hefty on the wallet... Any good insights here please. I want to do something here but I am not prepared to drain my wallet :D
Either your power is lousy in Norway, or there were serious voltage drops in the building with power draws,, but most likely the demo was rigged.

If the unit was boosting or saving power it should let you know. My UPS unit recently averted a neighborhood disaster by showing they were shaving power. A nearby voltage regulator of the power company had gone beserk and the voltages were going crazy high.

RFI noise does not usually come in via the power leads. It is radiated by the leads supplying LED light bulbs and especially silicon controlled rectifier light dimmers. Now the noise usually comes from that RF radiation getting into the high gain circuits and even speaker leads, as it has entry to the high gain via negative feedback. So RF reduction is a may be.

It will stabilize voltage to a degree, but it takes a unit with a battery to really do the job, so it can instantly switch to battery and the inverter if things really get rough like ice and thunderstorms.

Voltage from the grid is normally tightly controlled by the power companies regulators.
I have a unit monitoring the voltage in the equipment case and the voltage is usually rock solid at 120 volts, and 60 Hz.

The grounding claim is bogus. These units can not keep ground at zero voltage through out your system and prevent ground loops. Only a well designed and executed grounding plan and layout can do that.

So there is no 100% bullet proof solution. However apart from a bad direct hit you can get close.

I recommend whole house surge protection installed by your electrician.

Power the fragile units, which is everything except power amps from UPS units. I use APC units in the bottom of each rack. These do a good job of controlling voltage. I found out in the recent episode, just how good. It was perfection in that department. For sudden swings related to adverse weather it switches to battery until it settles down. It powers down softly in the event pf power cut, and here keeps power on until the generator comes on line, about 5 sec. The UPS units can power the system for about 15 to 20 min, but does not have to here, as long as I do my maintenance on the generator.

So for you whole house surge protection and a UPS.

Hint, Furman is a rip off.
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
I was at a hi-end audio dealer where Keith Martin from Isotek UK ran a demo involving just an LP player and a RIAA stage.
.......................................................
I wonder if Mr. Martin would care to have the demo repeated under controlled, ears only conditions?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Hint, Furman is a rip off.
Which Furman products are a rip off? I have one in a house that I've mentioned many times and when lightning struck outside, I heard a loud 'snap' sound in the room where most of the AV equipment lives, near the ADT cellular transponder- the system was operating at the time and none of it has ever had a problem in the 11 years since I installed the Furman & the rest.

Large live music act sound companies often use power generators from Furman, because they don't want the power to be interrupted in the event of a storm or some other reason- they can't be expected to use that brand and risk the hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of audio, lighting and video gear, based on what the marketing department writes, can they?

Which models, specifically? You might want to talk to their engineers about their equipment.

FWIW, I use APC, too but their small UPS units are as noisy (EMI from the inverter) as anyone else's. I have a Minuteman UPS in a rack in Door County that produces EMI that enters the house system, but only if a third input is used- if I stay with only two, it's fine and the type of cabling doesn't matter. I have tried using Cat5e with audio baluns, RCA of various brands with and without isolation transformers but it always picks up the noise, which I verified with an inductive want from my cable toner and headphones (the wand has a 3.5mm jack for allowing headphone use in noisy environments). I even moved the UPS farther from the rack (it's sitting on top, the rack is steel and grounded to the electric service). When I returned from the job site, I checked for noise with the APC unit I have and it was the same.

While the EMI has nothing to do with the ability to provide good power during voltage fluctuations, it does show that not all of these brands handles some aspects as well as they might.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Which Furman products are a rip off? I have one in a house that I've mentioned many times and when lightning struck outside, I heard a loud 'snap' sound in the room where most of the AV equipment lives, near the ADT cellular transponder- the system was operating at the time and none of it has ever had a problem in the 11 years since I installed the Furman & the rest.

Large live music act sound companies often use power generators from Furman, because they don't want the power to be interrupted in the event of a storm or some other reason- they can't be expected to use that brand and risk the hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of audio, lighting and video gear, based on what the marketing department writes, can they?

Which models, specifically? You might want to talk to their engineers about their equipment.

FWIW, I use APC, too but their small UPS units are as noisy (EMI from the inverter) as anyone else's. I have a Minuteman UPS in a rack in Door County that produces EMI that enters the house system, but only if a third input is used- if I stay with only two, it's fine and the type of cabling doesn't matter. I have tried using Cat5e with audio baluns, RCA of various brands with and without isolation transformers but it always picks up the noise, which I verified with an inductive want from my cable toner and headphones (the wand has a 3.5mm jack for allowing headphone use in noisy environments). I even moved the UPS farther from the rack (it's sitting on top, the rack is steel and grounded to the electric service). When I returned from the job site, I checked for noise with the APC unit I have and it was the same.

While the EMI has nothing to do with the ability to provide good power during voltage fluctuations, it does show that not all of these brands handles some aspects as well as they might.
Furman use a lot of bogus hard sell.

The inverter should not be active except when it goes to battery.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Furman use a lot of bogus hard sell.

The inverter should not be active except when it goes to battery.
I'm pretty sure most of the UPS sold to the computer crowd are active when not needed to prevent long delays corrupting files and programs.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm pretty sure most of the UPS sold to the computer crowd are active when not needed to prevent long delays corrupting files and programs.
If that is so, mine must be in some sort of standby mode, as they generate no significant heat unless it goes to battery. It is quick enough not to upset the computers.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
If that is so, mine must be in some sort of standby mode, as they generate no significant heat unless it goes to battery. It is quick enough not to upset the computers.
Low current, low heat.

Unfortunately, there's almost as much BS in marketing power as there is in marketing power amplifiers and I think I just found the problem.....:D

One of the Minuteman UPS I installed in the office of the house I have mentioned and one evening, the husband and wife were both working on something with their computers. A storm rolled through and as he was writing some kind of multi-page document, lightning struck, the power went out and the UPS kept the computers running. He said "Well, that just paid for itself". I don't think it happened more than a couple of days after I had installed it and he had questioned the need.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Low current, low heat.

Unfortunately, there's almost as much BS in marketing power as there is in marketing power amplifiers and I think I just found the problem.....:D
Yes, I think there are more far fetched spurious claims in this area then any other, except may be wire!
 

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