I would like to get some opinions. Surge protector/Power conditioner

Brad2332

Brad2332

Audiophyte
I will start this by introducing myself, I am new to this forum. My name is Brad and I have been into audio for many years but I am no professional. I am the type of guy that loves a system that is clean, detailed and that can go good and loud as well.

Now to the question....

I am looking into get a surge protector/power conditioner. I was looking at the Furman M-8Dx. Is there any other surge protector/power conditioner out there that is in this price range that would be better? Is the Furman M-8Dx a good one?

Thanks
 
WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai

You really can’t expect much in the way of power conditioning in that price range. The only real reason to get it is if you need a place to plug everything in.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
Brad2332

Brad2332

Audiophyte
You really can’t expect much in the way of power conditioning in that price range. The only real reason to get it is if you need a place to plug everything in.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Do you at least think it is a good price for what you are getting? Also, in your opinion what is a price range that I would be getting good power conditioning.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Do you at least think it is a good price for what you are getting? Also, in your opinion what is a price range that I would be getting good power conditioning.
Brad
Welcome to the forum. Hope you have many pleasant threads here. Lots of available expertise.

On this subject of power conditioners, we've seen this set of inquiries a bunch of times.
Most times, the answers all start with questions.
Why do you think you need a power conditioner? Where do you live where the power is so bad you think a conditioner is needed?

Most times, new posters think they need a power conditioner because they either had a conversation with a sales person, or, they have been at someones house who has power conditioning equipment to "clean up the power". In most residential areas, consumer solutions provide little or no real benefit and many manufacturers of quality amplifiers caution against them, not for them.

I'll pause there and see what you think. This is an area where companies make a lot of profit and actually provide the end user with little or no tangible benefit.
 
Brad2332

Brad2332

Audiophyte
Brad
Welcome to the forum. Hope you have many pleasant threads here. Lots of available expertise.

On this subject of power conditioners, we've seen this set of inquiries a bunch of times.
Most times, the answers all start with questions.
Why do you think you need a power conditioner? Where do you live where the power is so bad you think a conditioner is needed?

Most times, new posters think they need a power conditioner because they either had a conversation with a sales person, or, they have been at someones house who has power conditioning equipment to "clean up the power". In most residential areas, consumer solutions provide little or no real benefit and many manufacturers of quality amplifiers caution against them, not for them.

I'll pause there and see what you think. This is an area where companies make a lot of profit and actually provide the end user with little or no tangible benefit.

Ok, I will start by saying that I live in very remote areas of northern Canada. Because of my job I have lived in some places that are a 17 hour drive through the bush to where the real power is coming from(power plant). So the power is very unreliable and I have actually seen the lights get brighter, then dim down and flicker. I have seen the power go out on a sunny, no wind, no rain and no thunder and-lightning because of something going on down south (about 14-17 hours away).


I was a very big sceptic of whether or not power cables and things of that nature could actually make a difference in my sound until I finally took the plunge and bought some high-end power cables for my system. I actually found some really nice power cables on eBay for fraction of what well known name brand companies wanted for them. These cables are 10 gauge and shielded cables. I actually picked them up for just under $60 Canadian a peace. I am so glad that I did because I actually noticed a difference in my sound and I could not believe it. Here is a copy and paste of a message that I sent to a buddy of mine on Facebook after trying these cables....


“ Sheena was telling me the other day that there was too much bass but what she was really hearing was the mids. I only have a bass and a treble dial. So if I turned the bass down to fix the mids I would lose my low end bass. So the bass was making the mids sound murky. After I changed the power cables I listened to it all night and I definitely heard the difference. But I had to get a second opinion. So I got Sheena to listen to a bunch of different songs and I did not tell her that I noticed any difference. After listening for a while I asked her what she thought about the sound. I asked if it was too much bass,treble or mids. She said it sounded perfect. I then told her that I did not adjust the bass or treble (which I did not) and she still said that it sounded much better. It is a more balanced sound. It sounds cleaner and more defined. It is not as big of a difference as the wifi receiver but still a very notable difference.”

So I KNOW that depending on your situation that simple things like better power cables can actually make a difference. I am very sure that my results could very depending on the house that you’re in, how far away your house is from the power plant and many other circumstances.

But like I stated right from the beginning, I have been into audio for many years ( but again I am no professional ). And one thing that I can guarantee anyone is that the gauge of wire is very important. I am also mechanically inclined and I do a lot of my own mechanic work so that being said I use a lot of power tools. And when I think about using an electric impact with an extension cord you actually lose torque on that impact. So what’s happening there is you’re creating too much resistance in the delivery of that power. And with an impact wrench it’s actually measurable physically because with an extension cord it will not break a bolt free but if you take the extension cord out of the mix it will break the bolt free no problem. So using a heavier gauge wire makes perfect sense that it could make a difference.


Now, when it comes to a surge protector/power conditioner I want something that will definitely protect my gear and add some filtration to the power. But first and foremost I want really good surge and high and low voltage protection. Also, I am planning to rewire it with 10 gauge wire.



Sorry for the novel.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Ok, I will start by saying that I live in very remote areas of northern Canada. Because of my job I have lived in some places that are a 17 hour drive through the bush to where the real power is coming from(power plant). So the power is very unreliable and I have actually seen the lights get brighter, then dim down and flicker. I have seen the power go out on a sunny, no wind, no rain and no thunder and-lightning because of something going on down south (about 14-17 hours away).


I was a very big sceptic of whether or not power cables and things of that nature could actually make a difference in my sound until I finally took the plunge and bought some high-end power cables for my system. I actually found some really nice power cables on eBay for fraction of what well known name brand companies wanted for them. These cables are 10 gauge and shielded cables. I actually picked them up for just under $60 Canadian a peace. I am so glad that I did because I actually noticed a difference in my sound and I could not believe it. Here is a copy and paste of a message that I sent to a buddy of mine on Facebook after trying these cables....


“ Sheena was telling me the other day that there was too much bass but what she was really hearing was the mids. I only have a bass and a treble dial. So if I turned the bass down to fix the mids I would lose my low end bass. So the bass was making the mids sound murky. After I changed the power cables I listened to it all night and I definitely heard the difference. But I had to get a second opinion. So I got Sheena to listen to a bunch of different songs and I did not tell her that I noticed any difference. After listening for a while I asked her what she thought about the sound. I asked if it was too much bass,treble or mids. She said it sounded perfect. I then told her that I did not adjust the bass or treble (which I did not) and she still said that it sounded much better. It is a more balanced sound. It sounds cleaner and more defined. It is not as big of a difference as the wifi receiver but still a very notable difference.”

So I KNOW that depending on your situation that simple things like better power cables can actually make a difference. I am very sure that my results could very depending on the house that you’re in, how far away your house is from the power plant and many other circumstances.

But like I stated right from the beginning, I have been into audio for many years ( but again I am no professional ). And one thing that I can guarantee anyone is that the gauge of wire is very important. I am also mechanically inclined and I do a lot of my own mechanic work so that being said I use a lot of power tools. And when I think about using an electric impact with an extension cord you actually lose torque on that impact. So what’s happening there is you’re creating too much resistance in the delivery of that power. And with an impact wrench it’s actually measurable physically because with an extension cord it will not break a bolt free but if you take the extension cord out of the mix it will break the bolt free no problem. So using a heavier gauge wire makes perfect sense that it could make a difference.


Now, when it comes to a surge protector/power conditioner I want something that will definitely protect my gear and add some filtration to the power. But first and foremost I want really good surge and high and low voltage protection. Also, I am planning to rewire it with 10 gauge wire.



Sorry for the novel.
While I don't subscribe to the notion that cables make a difference, your situation sounds like you really need something like a Furman HT15A or APC H15, is what I use. Although you may want battery back up so that your system can shut down safely if you experience low current during use.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Ok, I will start by saying that I live in very remote areas of northern Canada.

Sorry for the novel.
Brad
It seems like you are one of the few that may actually benefit because where you are puts you in a unique category. Like @TheWarrior mentioned, an APC unit or a Furman may do you good. I have APC battery backup units on my systems to keep the computers and routers up when the power goes out so I can survive those and give my systems the gentle shutdown. My music systems use computers for the source files so I like the APC units.

I also don't subscribe to things like power cables making audible differences to your sound but that's a different discussion for a different day. Which Province ? Just interested. Northern Canada is gorgeous.
I imagine the remote nature of where you live brings you all kinds of challenges with modern equipment to match up with the beautiful country.
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
An easier solution might be to get hi-fi components with SMPS power supplies (redundant). Because a SMPS doesn't give a darn what the line voltage is.
 
MR.MAGOO

MR.MAGOO

Audioholic Field Marshall
Also be aware some of these power conditioners are designed to "take a bullet" if hit by a massive lightning / voltage spike, they must be replaced afterwards. I think there's a huge Furman model that claims it can withstand a lightning strike and "keep on ticking".
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I also live in a remote area, on a lake in the Paul Bunyan State Forrest of MN. We get thunderstorms in summer and some ice storms in winter.

For me power protection is vital as I have two systems there.

First I strongly recommend APC products and not Furman. Most APC gear is built to industrial standards.

So what do I do to protect my gear in a situation not unlike yours?

1). Robust whole house surge protection at the panel.

2). All gear with the exception of power amps, powered from an APC UPS in the bottom of each equipment rack. This units have battery back up for not only smooth shut down, but will go to battery for sudden spikes and low voltage situations. If the voltage goes high the unit will shave it and keep equipment voltage in paramamters. Response time should be under 5 msec and preferably around 1 msec.

3). For the worst situation a 15 KW auto start generator. That is luxury though, but it has been very nice to have over the years. When the power is out for long periods, you have heat, hot water and can cook, and have AC in the summer.

Recently this gear saved mine and everybody else's bacon on this electric line.

On the Saturday afternoon of this last New year weekend, I noted all 4 of my UPS units were shaving power. The over voltage lights were all lit. My line voltage was around 128 volts. I thought I could get away not bothering the crew on a holiday weekend, so I watched it. By New Year's day the voltage was 138 volts. The power out of the UPS was 122 volts. The two phase high voltage circuit was 275 volts.

So I had to get the power company. The problem was traced to a failing voltage regulator on Hubbard county road 39 about 2 miles away. So that had to be bypassed for a couple of days until a new control unit could be installed. There was a lot of power fluctuations in power in that time frame.

If I had not had those UPS units to alert me to the high voltage then I and others would have had damage to equipment. In addition the power company told me they would have had no way of knowing about this and power would have continued to rise and very likely caused a house fire or two.

This last episode taught me a lesson. This problem was not unique to a rural area, and could just have easily occurred in any area of the US including major metropolitan areas.

So my advice has changed. Everyone at least have a device in their home to alert them to high voltage. If you have expensive delicate equipment then everyone, yes everyone, need whole house surge protection and a good UPS.
 
P

pwlong

Audioholic Intern
Welcome Brad.

I'd add myself to the list of folks who prefer to place their voltage-sensitive electronics behind a power conditioner. We live in a rural part of the Pacific NW, and power quality and consistency is an issue.

In my case, I have a number of PCs that serve various network functions -- home automation, fileserver, recording OTA TV broadcasts and network backups -- for my family of 6. Before I learned about UPS and power conditioning, I lost a few PSs due to line power events. Since I put an APC between the panel and the PCs, I haven't had such issues, especially when the OS can be configured to detect loss of power and trigger an orderly shutdown to keep filesystems healthy (Linux). So I'd echo TLS Guy's comments on the benefits of a UPS for computing equipment.

So when I spec'd components for our basement theater room, I added a Furman PL-PLUS 15A unit to sit between the incoming power and the AVR and other components. Specific details on all components in the link below:

http://havingfunalongtheway.com/basement-home-theater-av-component-setup/

It may not be the best unit out there, and may need to be replaced if a big power spike comes along. But I'm okay with that.

Have fun...
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Imho what you need is without any doubt is a solid UPS. Ideally one with pure sine wave output.
I'd look for refub APC Smart-UPS models and if original battery dies, just replace it with cheap after market one. I know I did and works fine.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
off topic: We should have new thread in vent: "Things you fixed, instead of buying new today"
I'd start with - I fixed paper pickup rollers on my 2nd hand office printer which I got for free. Fixed the jammin' issue and allows me to postpone it's replacement for another year or so.

This is what I'm talking about:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/APC-Smart-UPS-1500-LCD-SMT1500-980W-Uninterruptible-Power-Supply-NO-BATTERIES/232628725060?epid=129702803&hash=item3629c0a544:g:HhoAAOSwgLlaWSFG

Do a bit of research and find that you could find replacement batteries on amazon for under $50. I guarantee it.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
off topic: We should have new thread in vent: "Things you fixed, instead of buying new today"
I'd start with - I fixed paper pickup rollers on my 2nd hand office printer which I got for free. Fixed the jammin' issue and allows me to postpone it's replacement for another year or so.

This is what I'm talking about:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/APC-Smart-UPS-1500-LCD-SMT1500-980W-Uninterruptible-Power-Supply-NO-BATTERIES/232628725060?epid=129702803&hash=item3629c0a544:g:HhoAAOSwgLlaWSFG

Do a bit of research and find that you could find replacement batteries on amazon for under $50. I guarantee it.
we have one of those Batteries + stores right by my house. When my APC unit batteries went south in 2017 that's what I did. I mozied over there with the battery pack and we took it apart and replaced just the batteries. Wasn't cheap, but, it wasn't hard or expensive either. Good as new now.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
An easier solution might be to get hi-fi components with SMPS power supplies (redundant). Because a SMPS doesn't give a darn what the line voltage is.
Most SMPS don't give a darn what the line voltage is, but there are some exceptions:

In the owner's manual for the QSC Digital Cinema Amplifier Series, which use a SMPS, it is clearly specified that units are designed to operate either from a 120V or a 220-240VAC power line at 50/60 Hz. My two DCA1222s have a sticker at the back indicating 120V -50/60 Hz.
 
Brad2332

Brad2332

Audiophyte
Brad
It seems like you are one of the few that may actually benefit because where you are puts you in a unique category. Like @TheWarrior mentioned, an APC unit or a Furman may do you good. I have APC battery backup units on my systems to keep the computers and routers up when the power goes out so I can survive those and give my systems the gentle shutdown. My music systems use computers for the source files so I like the APC units.

I also don't subscribe to things like power cables making audible differences to your sound but that's a different discussion for a different day. Which Province ? Just interested. Northern Canada is gorgeous.
I imagine the remote nature of where you live brings you all kinds of challenges with modern equipment to match up with the beautiful country.
I am in Northern Manitoba right now. But that could change. I lived in The Northwest Territories, Nothern Alberta and Northern Saskatchewan.
 
Brad2332

Brad2332

Audiophyte
Thanks for all of the advice. We have those APC units at work. All the computers are plugged into them. I will start looking into these suggestions.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Ok, I will start by saying that I live in very remote areas of northern Canada. Because of my job I have lived in some places that are a 17 hour drive through the bush to where the real power is coming from(power plant). So the power is very unreliable and I have actually seen the lights get brighter, then dim down and flicker. I have seen the power go out on a sunny, no wind, no rain and no thunder and-lightning because of something going on down south (about 14-17 hours away).
That sounds familiar. I live in an area where brownouts and power outages aren't that uncommon and therefore as a result use a UPS with my PCs and NAS and another with my router. I also use Tripp Lite voltage regulator/surge suppressors with my TVs, Shield TV set to boxes, and game boxes to maintain useable voltages and if you really do need voltage regulation then they make a lot of sense. Here they are a sanity saver. On the other hand it's not something that everyone, or even most people need. It's a decision that you'll have to make.

What you should never skimp on are surge suppressors. Buy quality devices and replace every couple of years.
 
Brad2332

Brad2332

Audiophyte
Ok, I looked into the APC units and they are WAY too expensive for what I want. The highest wattage they do was I think 1250 watts which would be ok for now but if I ever wanted to get a more powerful powered sub and or another amp that would no longer suit my needs. And that unit is about $2000 CAD.

So I started looking around on the net and I think I have found a real winner, the Tripp Lite LCR2400. I found it for around $260 US and it has had some really good reviews. Check it out and give me your opinions.....


https://www.tripplite.com/2400w-120v-3u-rack-mount-power-conditioner-automatic-voltage-regulation-avr-ac-surge-protection-14-outlets~LCR2400
 
Last edited:
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
I will start this by introducing myself, I am new to this forum. My name is Brad and I have been into audio for many years but I am no professional. I am the type of guy that loves a system that is clean, detailed and that can go good and loud as well.

Now to the question....

I am looking into get a surge protector/power conditioner. I was looking at the Furman M-8Dx. Is there any other surge protector/power conditioner out there that is in this price range that would be better? Is the Furman M-8Dx a good one?

Thanks
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/audio-accessory/surge-protector-ups/innovolt-hem-x1000-power-protection/

This is an older model they're closing out. I picked one up for a great price.

If you can find them...new in the box $200 or less...it's a steal, I think this retailed for near $800-900at one point.

Can protect up to 11 components...10 on the rear and 1 aux on the front panel.
 

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