I would like to get some opinions. Surge protector/Power conditioner

haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
I hoped for something looking reminiscent of scientific answers....

There are places in Switzerland where you can listen to the radio through the power grid... I experienced the same in Norway. I could sometimes hear sound of fridge through my power amp.... and we don't need any filtering on the power?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The hospital where I work uses Tripp Lite surge protection for all the hospital equipments. So that's why I also use Tripp Lite at home, although my house does have a whole-house surge protection and a 60kW power generator. :D
You have a 60 KW generator? What are you doing that would require that much power?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I hoped for something looking reminiscent of scientific answers....

There are places in Switzerland where you can listen to the radio through the power grid... I experienced the same in Norway. I could sometimes hear sound of fridge through my power amp.... and we don't need any filtering on the power?
Well, it all depends. For most units there is already a big filter. It is the power supply. You have a big inductor called the power supply, and then huge caps from rail to ground. So it is highly unlikely that anything will get through. I'm not saying it could not happen but it is unlikely.

Now most interference in my experience is through the air. I suspect that in the case of your power amp and your fridge, then the most likely scenario is that the fridge motor is generating RF that is radiated by the AC power line going to the fridge. Then it gets piked up by your power amp, but not though the AC cord.

The interference comes because it gets radiated into you power amp. Then a semiconductor junction gets it fed in, rectifies it and then it get amplified. The will be hundreds of semiconductor junctions capable of doing this. The mechanism is identical to the old crystal radio set. This form of noise is much more likely to come in via the speaker leads, than the AC line. This is because the speaker leads have direct access to the early voltage amplification high gain circuits via negative feedback in the power amp.

In my experience you are much more likely to solve your fridge/power amp issue with an RF filter on the +ve terminal in series with the speakers than a filter in the AC leads.

Now, having said that, the situation now is different, as there are amps and other audio devices that have no traditional power supplies. These are switching supplies that have no power transformer. I have no data or information on the ability of these types of circuits to pass on RF.

I do know that there are now much more sources of RF in the home. This comes largely from LED light bulbs which radiate large amounts of RF right across the FM band that peaks at 100 MHz. The other major source is light dimmers. Combine the two and you have even greater potential, especially when the dimmer is at the dim range. The more it dims the more RF is generated. Lutron have a lot of information about this on their site.

Now the only place to have an impact on this is right at the source of the generation. Caps and in some cases tuned circuits can have a big impact there. That is much more likely to have an impact than a unit like you are describing, which in this scenario will more likely than not have no effect.

Lastly I have no experience with your power grid in Norway. All I can tell you is that I have looked with instruments at the AC power wave from Paul Bunyan power cooperative and have only seen perfect sine waves, with nothing that would require any filtering. Only once was there a problem. I was suspicious because of low voltage. The AC line showed THD well out of spec on my distortion analyser. The cause was a failing near by transformer. This was promptly replaced by the power company and there was not further problem until the recent over voltage from the power companies failing regulator.

Now the first incident could only have been solved by a total regenerative unit. These completely regenerate the AC wave from and oscillator, known as an inverter. These types if units add 40% to your power bill, make a lot of heat and are prone to failure making things worse.

The voltage issue was held by my current UPS units that kept the voltage to the units connected to them precisely in spec, and warned me voltage was being shaved. This caused me to investigate and notify the power company.

There are complex issues here. However only a minority of trouble from interference issues are likely to be solved by a unit of the type demonstrated to you.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You have a 60 KW generator? What are you doing that would require that much power?
All 6 houses in our neighborhood get these generators from the local electric company. They don't charge us anything extra to install or maintain the generator.

When we bought the land, the owner of these lots told me these are 60kW, but I never did confirm that with the electric company. So I assume it is. My house is 5,500 Sq.Ft. It doesn't say on the outside of the generator what the total power is. And I never called enough to ask/confirm. :D
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
All 6 houses in our neighborhood get these generators from the local electric company. They don't charge us anything extra to install or maintain the generator.

When we bought the land, the owner of these lots told me these are 60kW, but I never did confirm that with the electric company. So I assume it is. My house is 5,500 Sq.Ft. It doesn't say on the outside of the generator what the total power is. And I never called enough to ask/confirm. :D
A generator for a pretty large newer house is in the 13KW-20KW range, depending on the use of electric heat/cooling, dryer, lighting and range- those are the largest energy hogs but sometimes, the transfer switch doesn't connect to all circuits. IMO, if my house gets a generator, it's going to be like nothing happened to the service if it goes out- saving a few hundred bucks once and doing without for years doesn't make sense.

My friend's 38' boat from the late-'80s has a 9KW generator that was sized to power two AC/Heat units, a medium sized fridge,, TVs, the interior lights, the AC-powered stereo and an inverter/charger. We're gradually changing the lights to LED (interior ceiling are done) but reasonably-priced LED replacements for the exterior bulbs has been difficult.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
A generator for a pretty large newer house is in the 13KW-20KW range, depending on the use of electric heat/cooling, dryer, lighting and range- those are the largest energy hogs but sometimes, the transfer switch doesn't connect to all circuits. IMO, if my house gets a generator, it's going to be like nothing happened to the service if it goes out- saving a few hundred bucks once and doing without for years doesn't make sense.

My friend's 38' boat from the late-'80s has a 9KW generator that was sized to power two AC/Heat units, a medium sized fridge,, TVs, the interior lights, the AC-powered stereo and an inverter/charger. We're gradually changing the lights to LED (interior ceiling are done) but reasonably-priced LED replacements for the exterior bulbs has been difficult.
I absolutely love my whole-house power generator. Here in OKC, power outage is a fact of life at least twice a year, but usually more than that.

OK I just called my local electric company, and they looked up my generator. It is a 40KW generator. So the land owner was wrong. But thanks to you, now I know exactly how big my generator is. :D

Love that 40KW generator.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I absolutely love my whole-house power generator. Here in OKC, power outage is a fact of life at least twice a year, but usually more than that.

OK I just called my local electric company, and they looked up my generator. It is a 40KW generator. So the land owner was wrong. But thanks to you, now I know exactly how big my generator is. :D

Love that generator.
Size matters.

I'm looking at relocating and because of the properties I'm interested in, the possibility that the power to the house may be OK, but an out-building may be too far to get heavier juice out there and the cost may be prohibitively expensive because I have some machinery that runs on 220V which requires the service be at least 200A. That means I plan to use LED lighting (it really has come a long way and I like the color of the light much more than I did before), possibly some solar with batteries/inverter and maybe a generator. The boat generator I referred to needed testing after the regulator puked and I found a place that works on nothing BUT generators, so I now have an invaluable resource for info. Having been to the Jasper Engines plant and seeing their room with their power generation (they generate the whole factory's power and sells the excess to the utility), it seems easy enough to look for a generator & small diesel engine to power it for the out-building when I need the extra power since the house will be very efficient.

I could live without electricity, but I don't really want to. I do think the US has been far too slow in demanding more efficiency, in all use of energy- I am not impressed with vehicle fuel economy, either.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Size matters...

I plan to use LED lighting...
Yeah, my house uses 100% LED lighting, including attics and garage door opener light bulbs. :D

If I had to pay for the Power Generator with my own money, I would have gotten the 20KW. But they didn't even ask me. :D
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Yeah, my house uses 100% LED lighting, including attics and garage door opener light bulbs. :D

If I had to pay for the Power Generator with my own money, I would have gotten the 20KW. But they didn't even ask me. :D
I have never been a fan of florescent lights- partly because the color is either too warm or cold, not 'white' and if I had a choice, all of my lighting would look like it's halogen because it's the most natural. I have some in my basement, but one never worked well with the motion sensor for the laundry area, which is adjacent to the bottom of the stairs and the sensor is very helpful when someone has a load of something and doesn't want to search for a switch. Eventually, the lights stopped fully illuminating and when I was at Menard's, I went to the lighting section to see if they had anything at a reasonable price. Well, they did- it's 4' fixture that hangs like a florescent, but it's LED. 3300 degree, bright white, but not blue-ish and it works perfectly with the sensor, so I went back and bought some for the garage- I had always fought with those because it's not always heated and most tubes don't like cold, so it was always too dark when I wanted light. I replaced one and tried it, then replaced another. I stopped for a while because there was no point in thinking I would ever need the florescent fixtures again- I have more light with better coverage with three LED fixtures than I had with six florescent, so I hung a fourth over the front of my van and since I had bought a total of six, I still have three that can be added, as needed.

Inside of the house, I replaced most of the bulbs with LED and they're definitely brighter and more natural-looking than the CFL I had been using but those are all in ceiling fans and where they wouldn't be used for long, so any bad color isn't as important. I have seen in-ceiling LED lights that are really good, too- it's about time they fixed the color issue.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
There are definite differences with power conditioners.

Thanks for all the input guys, but..... When I plug in system directly to outlets it is really getting bright harsh and I simply can't enjoy the music at all, to the point that I just shut it down.

I am currently using a simple T+A powerbar with surge protection and some pretty simple power filtering. There is an unquestionable and clear difference especially in the sense that some of that brightness goes away.....

There is also a clear difference in listening quality based in time of day... at night it is different, and it is not my imagination, this is repeatable, and what I am wondering is that there is less heavy industrial equipment running providing noise artifacts onto the power grid....

NO: IT IS NOT THE REDWINE TALKING !!!!

So maybe power net is different in that sense in Norway compared to US. Yes, our setup is very different in that we have 400V, 3 phase inlets that is going to 220V, 1 phase inside the house. Technically totally different from what you guys have. There has also been some writing that power grid in Norway is sub-par based on noise from industrial machines and lots of el-cars charging goes back into the power grid and is left unfiltered....

my concern now is to what extent your experiences in US relates to what is valid in Europe, as there is pretty big differences in the power grid. I can see that many places you see perfect sine waves from the power grid, I just don't think that's the case here :(

Is there any reasonable equipment.... that I can verify for myself the issues, read: do measurements myself
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
There are definite differences with power conditioners.

Thanks for all the input guys, but..... When I plug in system directly to outlets it is really getting bright harsh and I simply can't enjoy the music at all, to the point that I just shut it down.

I am currently using a simple T+A powerbar with surge protection and some pretty simple power filtering. There is an unquestionable and clear difference especially in the sense that some of that brightness goes away.....

There is also a clear difference in listening quality based in time of day... at night it is different, and it is not my imagination, this is repeatable, and what I am wondering is that there is less heavy industrial equipment running providing noise artifacts onto the power grid....

NO: IT IS NOT THE REDWINE TALKING !!!!

So maybe power net is different in that sense in Norway compared to US. Yes, our setup is very different in that we have 400V, 3 phase inlets that is going to 220V, 1 phase inside the house. Technically totally different from what you guys have. There has also been some writing that power grid in Norway is sub-par based on noise from industrial machines and lots of el-cars charging goes back into the power grid and is left unfiltered....

my concern now is to what extent your experiences in US relates to what is valid in Europe, as there is pretty big differences in the power grid. I can see that many places you see perfect sine waves from the power grid, I just don't think that's the case here :(

Is there any reasonable equipment.... that I can verify for myself the issues, read: do measurements myself
It is possible there is something wrong with your supply. May be a transformer is overloaded some place and higher loads are downgrading the quality.

The only way to really know is to look at the waveform at different times. That means an O-scope.

Here is the picture of my waveform when we had the pole transformer issue.



You can see the waveform is clipped and distorted. The distortion analyzer below showed THD well above the amount allowed by law.

After pole transformer replaced.



An O-scope is the simplest and best way to see what is going on.

At the time that was occurring the voltage was low and fluctuating.

There are simple devices to measure voltage and the cycles.

I have had an O-scope on hand for as long as I can remember and several locations. At least in the US and from when I lived on the UK problems with the quality of the grid power are very rare.

Looking at the wave form, knowing its voltage and frequency really tells you what you want to know. I have never seen hash on the line, which the power conditioner firms are always going on about. That would be easily visible as fuzz on the waveform on the scope.

Our power is not a lot different to yours. We have two phases of 240 volts apart coming to the house. The electric panels have a central neutral and 120 volts comes off the two phases either side of the neutral. So one side of breakers are one phase and the other side the other.

High power appliances, like cooking tops, ovens, water heaters are clothes driers get the full 240 volts.

All I can tell you that to cause significant problems there has to be a serious issue which the power company is obligated to correct.
 

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