I searched, but still confused, which Receiver to pick between Arcam, NAD, and Denon 3600/4700?

[alexb76]

Hi all,

First off, LOVE this site, and love Gene's articles, videos, and his no BS approach to audio! Keep it up!

My Pioneer Elite SC-67 is having DAC issues, essentially intermittently it does NOT decode Audio via HDMI or other digital sources WHENEVER you turn it on, AND/OR when you change source, OR change digital format... it outputs a loud grinding noise for a while (could be 5, or 20mins), then it would be fine UNTIL next time you turn it off or switch inputs. I have lost patience trying to figure out how to fix it. So, looking at Denon replacement... need some help pls!

Current System:
Pioneer Receiver, 5.1 mode, front channel pre-amp to Classe Amp, Speaker B in another room (usually playing same music/TV) - so using 7.1-ch amp. Four HDMI sources, Sonos Connect via Coax, Plex playing both videos/audio. B&W 805S fronts, B&W XTC, B&W M1 (rear and 2nd zone), Pioneer Kuro TV 1080P, Xbox One X

Future update:
- 4K LG TV, 4K sources, Dedicated Roon client, Audiophile DAC, possible addition of 2 height channels

MUST Haves:
- Good quality pre-out
- Good room correction
- Great Sound quality
- 4K 60Hz capable
- Ability to set different cross over for SMALL speakers (fronts to 60Hz, rear to 100Hz)
- Good DAC

Receivers considering:
- Denon 3600/3700/4700
- Arcam AVR390
- NAD 778

From what I gather, Denon offers the feature set, best video and tech, and best pre-out with ability to turn amp off, IF you set it to 11.1 mode, which works for me, but then I ASSUME that I would LOSE ability to turn Speaker B On/Off for the other room, is that so? Then I am totally not sure between Denon models... I assume getting HDMI 2.1 now, is better for future... but then 4700 higher power, and a cpl of audio improvements like Denon AL32, and lower jitter, and DSCS, DO ANY of those make that much of an improvement?

Then I also can have Arcam, or NAD... MAIN REASON is Dirac! Arcam seems not to have enough power, but I can get it at good price, then NAD seems to be BUGGY, and hasn't reviewed great on Audio Science review site (nor has Arcam)... BUT they both have Dirac. Is that a winning feature over Denon Audyssey? I also do NOT know if either NAD or Arcam let you set different crossover points for Small speakers on front, vs. rear?

Any advice of owners of any of the above is helpful. I could also consider Marantz, but to me, it's essentially a more expensive Denon...

 

[Sachb]

If you don't need 8k & 9 channels of processing then Yamaha Aventage RX-A1080 would be the pick, also RX-A2080 would be good as this will do 9 channels.

For sound & build quality, at this price, it's hard to beat a Yamaha.

Yamaha does everything you listed :
- Good quality pre-out
- Good room correction
- Great Sound quality
- 4K 60Hz capable
- Ability to set different cross over for SMALL speakers (fronts to 60Hz, rear to 100Hz)
- Good DAC

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Receivers considering:
- Denon 3600/3700/4700
- Arcam AVR390
- NAD 778

From what I gather, Denon offers the feature set, best video and tech, and best pre-out with ability to turn amp off, IF you set it to 11.1 mode, which works for me, but then I ASSUME that I would LOSE ability to turn Speaker B On/Off for the other room, is that so? Then I am totally not sure between Denon models... I assume getting HDMI 2.1 now, is better for future... but then 4700 higher power, and a cpl of audio improvements like Denon AL32, and lower jitter, and DSCS, DO ANY of those make that much of an improvement?

The 2019 Denon 3600 does not offer full pre-amp mode. Instead, it offers the ability to use 11.1 amp assign mode to use pre-out for fronts. However, all of the Denon models you site will send a signal out the pre-amp RCA no matter how amp assign is configured. The difference is the internal amps are still operating.

The 2020 Denon 3700 and 4700 receivers offer "pre-out" mode which disconnects the signal from the output stage. This can offer a cleaner signal using external amplification. When this mode is selected none of the internal amps will deliver sound to the speakers. Instead, the external amps are totally used to deliver sound output.

If your goal is to use MultiRoom audio, you will not want to use pre-amp mode. The reason is Zone 2 and Zone 3 amp assign modes do not work via pre-outs. In order for Zones to work inside Denon amp assign, the internal amps must be utilized and the Zone speakers connected directly to the Height Speaker Terminals.

It took me a bit of experimenting and contacting Denon support to realize this is how Denon models are designed. Pre-amp mode is only beneficial if you are willing to totally forget about Zone configurations.

Since multi zone capability is important to you, I would go with the Denon 3600 as you will not be able to utilize preamp mode. The only reason I would go with the 4700 is if you think you want Auro-3D processing. BUT since you will be using the Height channel for Zone 2 you won't be able to use Auro-3D anyway.

That leaves one reasonable choice among the Denon models you list. The 3600 is what you want if you decide Denon is your receiver choice. I have been having major issues with Denon Warranty service not completing repairs in a timely fashion and keeping my receiver in the shop for months. I don't see Denon service as reliable. If that does not matter to you then the Denon 3600 will sound good while it's working.

 

[alexb76]

If you don't need 8k & 9 channels of processing then Yamaha Aventage RX-A1080 would be the pick, also RX-A2080 would be good as this will do 9 channels.

For sound & build quality, at this price, it's hard to beat a Yamaha.

Yamaha does everything you listed :
- Good quality pre-out
- Good room correction
- Great Sound quality
- 4K 60Hz capable
- Ability to set different cross over for SMALL speakers (fronts to 60Hz, rear to 100Hz)
- Good DAC

Really? I thought Yamaha room correction is behind Dirac, ARC and Audyssey... no?

 

[alexb76]

The 2019 Denon 3600 does not offer full pre-amp mode. Instead, it offers the ability to use 11.1 amp assign mode to use pre-out for fronts. However, all of the Denon models you site will send a signal out the pre-amp RCA no matter how amp assign is configured. The difference is the internal amps are still operating.

The 2020 Denon 3700 and 4700 receivers offer "pre-out" mode which disconnects the signal from the output stage. This can offer a cleaner signal using external amplification. When this mode is selected none of the internal amps will deliver sound to the speakers. Instead, the external amps are totally used to deliver sound output.

If your goal is to use MultiRoom audio, you will not want to use pre-amp mode. The reason is Zone 2 and Zone 3 amp assign modes do not work via pre-outs. In order for Zones to work inside Denon amp assign, the internal amps must be utilized and the Zone speakers connected directly to the Height Speaker Terminals.

It took me a bit of experimenting and contacting Denon support to realize this is how Denon models are designed. Pre-amp mode is only beneficial if you are willing to totally forget about Zone configurations.

View attachment 41972

Since multi zone capability is important to you, I would go with the Denon 3600 as you will not be able to utilize preamp mode. The only reason I would go with the 4700 is if you think you want Auro-3D processing. BUT since you will be using the Height channel for Zone 2 you won't be able to use Auro-3D anyway.

That leaves one reasonable choice among the Denon models you list. The 3600 is what you want if you decide Denon is your receiver choice. I have been having major issues with Denon Warranty service not completing repairs in a timely fashion and keeping my receiver in the shop for months. I don't see Denon service as reliable. If that does not matter to you then the Denon 3600 will sound good while it's working.

Thanks, I do NOT need a Zone 2, as second room would always be using the same sound of main room. So, would be "Speaker B", now, if I set it to 11.1, SO I can use pre-amp for fronts with disconnect of power, would I still be able to use Speaker B somehow? Meaning send the front speaker sound to Speaker B?

Now, I can get 3700 for only $100 more than 3600, and 4700 for $500 more. Do you think the HDMI 2.1 issue would definitely need an update, IF one isn't gonna use 4K/120 with the Xbox Series X? I believe PS5 is fine, and other 4K sources are fine. Basically if one isn't concerned about 8K or 4K/120, isn't it worth it to get 3700 for $100 more?

Then between 3700 and 4700, any of these features (AL32, DDSC, Jitter reducer) worthwhile, in addition to 20W extra power (it's heavier, so I assume it has a larger Power Supply)?

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Thanks, I do NOT need a Zone 2, as second room would always be using the same sound of main room. So, would be "Speaker B", now, if I set it to 11.1, SO I can use pre-amp for fronts with disconnect of power, would I still be able to use Speaker B somehow? Meaning send the front speaker sound to Speaker B?

Now, I can get 3700 for only $100 more than 3600, and 4700 for $500 more. Do you think the HDMI 2.1 issue would definitely need an update, IF one isn't gonna use 4K/120 with the Xbox Series X? I believe PS5 is fine, and other 4K sources are fine. Basically if one isn't concerned about 8K or 4K/120, isn't it worth it to get 3700 for $100 more?

Then between 3700 and 4700, any of these features (AL32, DDSC, Jitter reducer) worthwhile, in addition to 20W extra power (it's heavier, so I assume it has a larger Power Supply)?

The Denon 3600, 3700, 4700 are all 9.2 receivers. If you set it to 11.1 then you will need to use an external amp to power the fronts. In that case, the "B speakers" would not be available.

If you select "B Speakers" in amp assign you will be limited to a 7.2 setup in your main room and the B speakers will be attached to the Height terminals. If you are going to use "B speakers" I would probably go with the 3600 or 3700. Since you will be powering two rooms you won't have the ability to maximize an Auro-3D setup that the 4700 offers. The power difference will be minimal.

I would also get a fan. These units run hot after an hours use and this fan can help a lot:

Amazon.com: AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7, Quiet Dual 120mm USB Fan, UL-Certified for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling: Computers & Accessories

Amazon.com: AC Infinity MULTIFAN S7, Quiet Dual 120mm USB Fan, UL-Certified for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling: Computers & Accessories

www.amazon.com

 

[alexb76]

Question about Arcam/NAD... do people know if Arcam AVR390 OR NAD 778, offer different cross-over settings for SMALL speakers? I'd like fronts to be 60Hz, rear to be 100Hz. I know Dirac does, BUT Amp should have the ability to take advantage of it.

Secondly, HOW MUCH BETTER is Dirac vs. Audyssey?

 

[lovinthehd]

You can check the manuals for the crossover being universal/per channel/per speaker....I'd guess they are beyond the global level, tho.

Couldn't tell ya, never played with Dirac but have been able to get good results with Audyssey (particularly XT32) and with the editor app, is pretty useful.....

 

[alexb76]

You can check the manuals for the crossover being universal/per channel/per speaker....I'd guess they are beyond the global level, tho.

Couldn't tell ya, never played with Dirac but have been able to get good results with Audyssey (particularly XT32) and with the editor app, is pretty useful.....

I did. It doesn’t say specifically in the manual. need someone with Arcam to confirm.

 

[lovinthehd]

I did. It doesn’t say specifically in the manual. need someone with Arcam to confirm.

Made me look, pretty lame manuals for both from a quick read thru.

 

[Sachb]

Really? I thought Yamaha room correction is behind Dirac, ARC and Audyssey... no?

That's just a misconception, YPAO RSC did a much better job than my Denon with Audyssey XT ever did. It removed the boominess from the Sub completely. People say that the YPAO is limited to 31 Hz for the subs, but it won't be a noticeable difference, as human hearing is limited to 20 hz or so.

Dirac might be the best out of the three, but I have no personal experience & can't talk about it.

 

[Gmoney]

Really? I thought Yamaha room correction is behind Dirac, ARC and Audyssey... no?

Yamaha RC isn't as good as Audyssey, I've used both. Audyssey is Superior.

 

[alexb76]

FYI - I just confirmed you CANNOT set different cross overs for Front vs. Center/Rear in Arcam. Only Atmos speakers could have a different one. This alone make Arcam not ideal for me.

Now, curious if NAD has the same limitation or not?!

 

[lovinthehd]

FYI - I just confirmed you CANNOT set different cross overs for Front vs. Center/Rear in Arcam. Only Atmos speakers could have a different one. This alone make Arcam not ideal for me.

Now, curious if NAD has the same limitation or not?!

I think @KenM10759 has a Nad receiver, might be the 758 but that might be indicative....

 

[VMPS-TIII]

I tried using different xo frequencies with various HT speakers, I found it didn't work well. The low end is definitely not as crisp. The Denon has that capability. I tried it and found xo for all at 80Hz to subs worked best for my setup.

 

[KenM10759]

I think @KenM10759 has a Nad receiver, might be the 758 but that might be indicative....

Yes, I have an NAD T758v3 and can set crossovers anywhere I wish for front L-R as a pair, center separately, rears, surrounds, and Atmos as pairs.

It's for sale though, because I just don't watch movies and my wife just hates surround sound and subwoofers.