I made a huge mistake. I listened to some Wilson Audio speakers...

[GTHill]

I was doing some work in Colorado and walked into an innocent looking home audio store. After listening to some "regular" speakers, they took me up to another room. It was the Wilson Audio demonstration room. Suffice it to say, I have compared everything else to them since.

I currently have Paradigm Studio 100's with the Servo 15 sub, plus a few smaller Paradigm's for rears. At this point, this is about all I can afford. I am happy with the system, but one of my worse personality traits is that if there is something else better out there, I want it. However, $250,000 in speakers is something I can't afford at this time.

What are the best speakers on the market that I can purchase to make my own Wilson Audio clones? I know I will probably never achieve their quality, but 80% of WA's quality is still probably much better than my Paradigms.

Ok, this post is too long already. Any thoughts or opinions would be great!

Gene

 

[Seth=L]

The only solution, at least within budget constraint, is to build your own speakers. WmAx (Chris), one of the members here, has made some of his own speakers I am sure he would put up to speakers that cost much more (price of new speakers, vs. cost of building them). Then time is money, and making speakers is no easy feat.

 

[Alex2507]

Maybe you can find a hypnotist to convince you that it never happened for a fraction of what the speakers cost.

 

[benolium]

Hypnotist

Maybe you can find a hypnotist to convince you that it never happened for a fraction of what the speakers cost.

This is the best advice I have ever heard. I guess If we never compare, we will always be happy with what we have. Good luck in your search of building the perfect speaker.

 

[GTHill]

I would love to build my own speakers. I have the resources and 4 years of woodshop to give me a place to start.

Maybe I should start a new thread, but what is the best driver that can be had? I know that opinion is involved, but there have to be three or so that are always at the top. Thanks!

Gene

 

[Rickster71]

I made a hugh mistake!

For a second there, I thought you were going to say you got married.

 

[Adam]

For a second there, I thought you were going to say you got married.

On the other hand, that would have cost less than the speakers. Near-term, anyway...

 

[WmAx]

I was doing some work in Colorado and walked into an innocent looking home audio store. After listening to some "regular" speakers, they took me up to another room. It was the Wilson Audio demonstration room. Suffice it to say, I have compared everything else to them since.

I currently have Paradigm Studio 100's with the Servo 15 sub, plus a few smaller Paradigm's for rears. At this point, this is about all I can afford. I am happy with the system, but one of my worse personality traits is that if there is something else better out there, I want it. However, $250,000 in speakers is something I can't afford at this time.

What are the best speakers on the market that I can purchase to make my own Wilson Audio clones? I know I will probably never achieve their quality, but 80% of WA's quality is still probably much better than my Paradigms.

Ok, this post is too long already. Any thoughts or opinions would be great!

Gene

Wilson Audio = Overpriced for the measured performance you get. In the case of the ultra-expensive one you listened to, vastly so.

Want a superior monopole speaker(even compared to the ultra-expensive one you listened to)? Just get a B&W 802D pair and combine it with a high grade digital equalizer to sculpt the sound signature to your preference. Don't forget the acoustic room treatments. The 802D is an extremely linear monopole with NO resonances of significance in any part of the design. It is extremely flat in response, and has a superbly clean spectral decay vs. time response. Using a high quality digital equalizer on such an objectively neutral device will allow you to shape the signature effectively. In fact, I would suggest that an equalizer is not optional in this case, but a requirement, if you want to achieve a preferred sound.

I highly recommend a powerful (200 watts or greater per channel) amplifier for the B&W 802D to make it useful for any potential circumstance.

While the 802D might cost $12,000.000 average retail, you can find a used pair for perhaps 8,000.00-9,000.00 USD. Compared to most of the high-end competitors, the B&W high end units out perform them for the dollars spent; they are simply engineered better. It may be interesting to note that B&W 802 model speakers are a standard in high end studios for neutral playback reference. Notable examples include Lucasfilm and Abbey Roads.

I can't think of any monopole speaker that is substantially better than the B&W 802D and 801D, at any cost.

-Chris

 

[jostenmeat]

WmAx,

what are your impressions of similarly priced Dynaudio speakers? (measurably and subjectively). Of the monopole speakers I have heard, and going from distant memory, I would have a very hard time choosing between those and B&Ws. The two favorite brands for monopoles I have ever heard. I've never seen them carried in the same store, and I never have seen any Wilson speaker. I also agree that B&W is very value-rich, which some people have a hard time in believing. Thanks for any opinion or input.

 

[WmAx]

WmAx,

what are your impressions of similarly priced Dynaudio speakers? (measurably and subjectively). Of the monopole speakers I have heard, and going from distant memory, I would have a very hard time choosing between those and B&Ws. The two favorite brands for monopoles I have ever heard. I've never seen them carried in the same store, and I never have seen any Wilson speaker. I also agree that B&W is very value-rich, which some people have a hard time in believing. Thanks for any opinion or input.

I will not recommend the Dynaudios. They are technically inferior compared to the specific B&W model units I recommended. At least, that is the case for the ones in a similar price range. Also, I am not offering any impressions of what I think about the sound, because I am considering that from an objective standpoint. Since the B&W is nearly absolute neutral in all audible regards, you can EFFECTIVELY make it sound like anything you want(within the constraints of a monopole radiation pattern and in a properly treated acoustic environment) with a precision, high quality equalizer. It does not matter what it sounds like to you in it's unequalized state -- it's providing a flat response with no resonance of significance. Timbre distortion free. That is the beauty of a true neutral system -- you can shape the response effectively, which is not true when trying to use an equalizer on a speaker system that inherently has typical coloration(s), which is the case with most speaker systems.

If you want a similar level of sound quality/neutrality of the B&W 802D/801D on a budget, check out the old 1980's B&W 801 Matrix Series II and Series III. It's ugly. It's old. But it nearly equals the measured performance(and nearly as low timbre distortion) as the modern units I recommended. Because of it's age, and probably it's ugly demeanor, it can be purchased used on eBay for around $2000(sometimes much less) per pair.

-Chris

 

[jostenmeat]

Thanks for your input Chris. I wish I knew of your existence before purchasing speakers! Only $2k for something comparable to an 802/801D would be an absolute steal. (Do such older hi-quality speakers as these need some sort of refurbishing, ie eletrolytic capacitors, foam surrounds, etc?). Not so hot looking, but I don't care too much for the looks of the current series either, to be honest. However, I don't put too much stock into looks.

Other questions... !

What do you know about the 804s (no D tweeter), and how they might compare with its superior siblings? (I thought these were great in terms of balance/consistency throughout the range, and they imaged like a sonamabich). However, I wish they did have a more pleasant coloration (just add EQ you would say? Which EQ's do you recommend?), and I did find the mids could be a bit forward, but I have no idea how much the room played into that).

What are your most significant (measurable) complaints about hybrid electrostats (which I do own)? (I know they have a very limited sweet-spot, required room from boundaries, must be powered, tough impedances, compression at "reference-level" volumes, etc).

Maybe more questions later! Thank you again

 

[WmAx]

Thanks for your input Chris. I wish I knew of your existence before purchasing speakers! Only $2k for something comparable to an 802/801D would be an absolute steal. (Do such older hi-quality speakers as these need some sort of refurbishing, ie eletrolytic capacitors, foam surrounds, etc?). Not so hot looking, but I don't care too much for the looks of the current series either, to be honest. However, I don't put too much stock into looks.

I believe the 801 Matrix used primarily plastic film capacitors, which have a longer life then electrolytic examples. Though, some electrolytic units may still be used due to economy of scale(the Zobel network section of a crossover generally requires very large values -- making an electrolytic the only economically viable option for a production speaker -- but since the 801 was very expensive to begin with -- I just don't know. You can ask B&W technical support, they may be able to tell you for certain if it uses any electrolytic units.). I am not sure if the surrounds are foam -- you should ask B&W.

What do you know about the 804s (no D tweeter), and how they might compare with its superior siblings?

They do not measure as well, and the cabinets are not resonance free, as they are in the 802D/801D/800D. Timbre distortion will result as a consequence of this.

Which EQ's do you recommend?

If you want a high value unit, I recommend the Behringer DEQ2496 or the DCX2496(which is a much more powerful unit with additional options/features to be used in the future). This is balanced professional equipment, there for you will need to add in the cost of some adapter cables and possibly an balance/unbalance matching adapter, depending on the specific equipment that you need to interface.

What are your most significant (measurable) complaints about hybrid electrostats (which I do own)? (I know they have a very limited sweet-spot, required room from boundaries, must be powered, tough impedances, compression at "reference-level" volumes, etc).

Maybe more questions later! Thank you again

Well, I don't know which unit you own; is there a credible 3rd party measurement set available for this unit that I can review? But, regardless, the off axis response is terrible with the standard type electrostatic panels (exception being some rare systems with special acoustic lenses placed over the panels). This type of speaker, for best sound quality, requires a single listening position, and a room that is extremely well treated acoustically, to prevent the off axis differences from contaminating the overall sound that you hear. The problem is that some room contribution is a positive thing for overall sound quality, according to credible perceptual research by leading psycho-acoustic experts such as Floyd Toole and Sean Olive.

-Chris

 

[Warpdrv]

Go DIY.... The availability of drivers/Tweeters these days is simply amazing...

You could buy the best possible combinations of drivers/tweeters/crosovers and not even come close to what you pay for a Studio 100. But then its a matter of building it, which can become tedious, but in the end... you did it yourself.

Cool Stuff

One of the finest looking Home Made speakers I have ever seen here:
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1050288/tism171.jpg

There are a few sites that have the full walk through of how to build speakers like these, called Statements...

Or the Mini Statements

Check out this spot for multiple design idea's
http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/index.html

 

[WmAx]

Go DIY.... The availability of drivers/Tweeters these days is simply amazing...

You could buy the best possible combinations of drivers/tweeters/crosovers and not even come close to what you pay for a Studio 100. But then its a matter of building it, which can become tedious, but in the end... you did it yourself.

It is the rare DIYer that will replicate the timbre free distortion cabinets of something such as a B&W 802D. The complication in design and construction tends to make it an undesirable thing to achieve for the overwhelming majority of DIYers, and also most commercial companies. The common DIY speaker, even the really neat looking ones, will be timbre distorting mechanisms, just like most high-end commercial speakers.

To me, it's rather pointless to put superb drivers and a good crossover circuit in a cabinet system that adds it's own coloration/distortion.

-Chris

 

[Warpdrv]

I agree, but if your dedicated, do your homework, then you can strive forth to produce a fantastic product, that could outperform $5000.00 speakers... Maybe?

 

[jostenmeat]

Chris, thanks again. My speakers are ML Summits that I landed for a great deal. Still a healthy chunk of change. I am hoping to put them in a dedicated room sometime next year. At which point I hope that my friend will help test my room for measurements. However, he knows nothing about electrostats.

I listen to music only myself the great majority of the time. It would be nice to have a larger sweetspot, however.

Warpdrv, thanks for the links. Unfortunately, I wouldn't trust myself to do a very good job with that. Also, I have neither the space or tools.

 

[WmAx]

I agree, but if your dedicated, do your homework, then you can strive forth to produce a fantastic product, that could outperform $5000.00 speakers... Maybe?

Actually, the 'homework' required to build, from one's own design, a speaker comparable to the retail $12,000.000 B&W 802D is years worth of perceptual and technical research and testing. In the end, the final raw materials to build such a design would cost probably $2,000.00 USD for a DIYer, assuming the knowledge/skill is present. Then we must assume that the thousands of hours invested and purchased/prior equipment to test/research to get to this point are for 'free'.

We can draw the distinction, I believe, between someone whom wants a good deal, to one whom is dedicated to becoming a fanatical DIYer.

The other solution is build a speaker, according to strict plans of a highly skilled engineer. The Linkwitz Orion ++ is such an example. It will still cost several thousand dollars to build for yourself from raw parts. In fact, this system would surpass the perceived sound quality of the monopole systems mentioned so far, simply because it has a superior off axis response, and even has rear treble output to further enhance room ambiance. But it was also carefully designed to avoid resonance(s), incorporating a mechanically decoupled driver, and no rear enclosing box assembly(which in that case of a rear closed system - makes dealing with resonances much more difficult).

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Chris, thanks again. My speakers are ML Summits that I landed for a great deal. Still a healthy chunk of change. I am hoping to put them in a dedicated room sometime next year. At which point I hope that my friend will help test my room for measurements. However, he knows nothing about electrostats.

I listen to music only myself the great majority of the time. It would be nice to have a larger sweetspot, however.

Warpdrv, thanks for the links. Unfortunately, I wouldn't trust myself to do a very good job with that. Also, I have neither the space or tools.

The Linkwitz Orion ++ that I referenced in my last post is available as a pre-constructed unit. It is engineered by one of the most notable loudspeaker engineers in the world -- Siegfried Linkwitz. http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

Most people whom audition this unit, seem to consider it the best speaker system that they have ever listened to, regardless of cost. I believe the fully constructed price (this includes amplifiers and an active crossover - this is an active system) is about $8,000.00 USD.

-Chris

 

[GTHill]

Thank you very much for the great information. I would be more than happy to sell my Studio 100's and build my own speakers. I'm looking for the best sound for the money and if that includes some (or a lot) of sweat equity, I'm all for it.

Hijacking my own thread, when you speak of resonance with a cabinet, is it desirable to have a cabinet that has absolutely no movement or vibration?

Gene

 

[WmAx]

Thank you very much for the great information. I would be more than happy to sell my Studio 100's and build my own speakers. I'm looking for the best sound for the money and if that includes some (or a lot) of sweat equity, I'm all for it.

Hijacking my own thread, when you speak of resonance with a cabinet, is it desirable to have a cabinet that has absolutely no movement or vibration?

Gene

Correct. You want NO added sound output from the cabinet itself. The easiest way for a DIYer to reduce resonances is by going with a speaker with no enclosed midrange driver, such as a standard dipole speaker with the midrange mounted on a single baffle. However, you should still use a mechanical decouple mounting technique to prevent the driver from directly vibrating the baffle. An open baffle speaker system requires very careful driver selection, and has some tradeoffs(as does everything you choose to do), but it's the easiest way to reduce timbre coloration.

-Chris