How much power does this receiver really put out?

[cameron paterson]

I just pulled the trigger on an Onkyo tx-rz820. It says 130x7. With all 7 channels driven... do you think it even puts out 50 watts RMS to each channel in 7 channel mode?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't know about the RZ800 series, but here are the power output for the RZ900 series.

The problem with Onkyo has never been about power, it's been about heat and reliability. So buy some USB 120mm fans to pull heat up from the AVR.

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 176.1 watts
1% distortion at 199.5 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 130.4 watts
1% distortion at 163.9 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 117.2 watts
1% distortion at 135.3 watts

Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/content/onkyo-tx-rz900-av-receiver-review-test-bench#cHVId9AydDl0rly8.99

 

[Swerd]

Where does it say "all 7 channels"? When all else fails, read the manual (RTM) www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/manuals/pdf/tx-rz820_bas_adv_manual_en.pdf. See page 38:

■ Amplifier Section​

Rated Output Power (FTC) (North American).​

With 8 ohm loads, both channels driven, from 20-​

20,000 Hz; rated 130 watts per channel minimum​

RMS power, with no more than 0.08% total harmonic​

distortion from 250 milliwatts to rated output.​

​

Surround Mode Output Power (＊)​

(6 ohms, 1 kHz THD 0.9%) 200 W per channel​

＊ Reference output for each speakers.​

Depending on the source and the listening mode​

settings, there may be no sound output.​

It doesn't clearly say it, but the US Federal Trade Commission (FTC) specifies measuring output power when two channels are driven. Your AVR can deliver 130 watts/channel when two channels are driven. Note that the FTC numbers are measured at 8 ohms impedance, from 20-20,000 Hz (the full audio range), and at 0.08% total harmonic distortion (THD). Generally, any level of THD below 0.1% cannot be heard.

Those specs on p 38 go on to say "Surround Mode Output Power is 200 W per channel at 6 ohms impedance, measured at 1 kHz and at 0.9% THD. These conditions are much less stringent than the FTC requirements, and not surprisingly, result in a much higher power rating. Note that it avoids mention of how many channels were in use. You should ignore this.

The rest of the numbers on that page talk about amplifier power ratings for Europe, Asia, and Australia. Ignore them also.

What the rigorously measured power output is when seven channels are driven is not stated. You can be certain it will be lower than 130 wpc, but how much lower, without measuring, would only be guessing. Some independent reviews do measure the power with all channels driven, but I don't know if there is that kind of info about your AVR.

Despite all this, I wouldn't worry about it. An FTC rating of 130 wpc is hardly puny. It should be enough for most speakers and owners.

 

[TLS Guy]

I just pulled the trigger on an Onkyo tx-rz820. It says 130x7. With all 7 channels driven... do you think it even puts out 50 watts RMS to each channel in 7 channel mode?

You read the specs wrong. It is 130 watts per channel 2 channels driven into 6 ohms

The maximum power consumption of the unit is 650 watts. It is class A/B. So lets assume that it is heavily tilted to B, and that the efficiency of the power amps is 70%, which is probably generous. It is probably less than that. Now lets assume the processors, HDMI DAC etc take 60 watts. That would be a realistic figure. That leaves 56 watts per channel if you drive 7 channels to the max at once. If you did, knowing Onkyblow, it would most likely blow up.

So 56 watts per channel would be the most optimistic for 7 channels driven and I suspect would be less and may be a lot less due to power supply stress and current limiting.

The good news is that unless you are one of those lunatics who plays in 7 channel stereo you won't drive 7 channels hard at once.

 

[cameron paterson]

That's what I was thinking 50 watts per channel. I knew the measurement for 130 watts was 2 channels driven but it says 130x7 is why I said that.

 

[j_garcia]

Each of the 7 channels is rated at 130W, but not when they are all driven. That's 130W downhill with a tailwind. Just a way for them to inflate their claims to get unsuspecting buyers to bite. If it hits 100 peak and 50 RMS, that's still probably sufficient for average listening as long as the speakers aren't a difficult load and the room isn't huge.

 

[cameron paterson]

I am replacing a pioneer that claims 140x5 so the onkyo should hold its own right?

 

[j_garcia]

Which model Pioneer?

 

[cameron paterson]

vsx-830

 

[j_garcia]

Sounds like it will be comparable power wise to the Pioneer, so yes I'd think it would be fine.

 

[cameron paterson]

Cool thanks!

 

[Swerd]

I am replacing a pioneer (vsx-830) that claims 140x5 so the onkyo should hold its own right?

Your Pioneer AVR was rated at 80×2, not 140×5. See below.

If you want to compare the amplifier power of two different AVRs, you must use only the FTC ratings. The FTC spells out the exact method for doing the measurement. With any other power rating, you simply don't know how Pioneer, Onkyo, or any other company measured it. And you cannot know if two different companies used the same rating methods unless its the FTC method. So comparing those non-FTC ratings are like comparing apple to oranges. Ignore them. If you use only the FTC ratings, you can be certain you are comparing apples to apples.

Pioneer VSX-830 manual, page 133:
Amplifier section
Continuous average power output of 80 watts* per channel, min., at 8 ohms, from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz, with no more than 0.08 %** total harmonic distortion.
* Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission’s Trade Regulation rule on Power Output Claims for
Amplifiers
** Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyze

So, to answer your question, the Onkyo TX-RZ820 rated at 130×2 is somewhat more powerful than your old Pioneer at 80×2.

 

[cameron paterson]

My pioneer is a 5.2 receiver.

 

[j_garcia]

Your Pioneer AVR was rated at 80×2, not 140×5. See below.

If you want to compare the amplifier power of two different AVRs, you must use only the FTC ratings. The FTC spells out the exact method for doing the measurement. With any other power rating, you simply don't know how Pioneer, Onkyo, or any other company measured it. And you cannot know if two different companies used the same rating methods unless its the FTC method. So comparing those non-FTC ratings are like comparing apple to oranges. Ignore them. If you use only the FTC ratings, you can be certain you are comparing apples to apples.

Pioneer VSX-830 manual, page 133:
Amplifier section
Continuous average power output of 80 watts* per channel, min., at 8 ohms, from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz, with no more than 0.08 %** total harmonic distortion.
* Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission’s Trade Regulation rule on Power Output Claims for
Amplifiers
** Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyze

So, to answer your question, the Onkyo TX-RZ820 rated at 130×2 is somewhat more powerful than your old Pioneer at 80×2.

On paper for both. Reality is, I'd expect them to be close, with the Onkyo being slightly more powerful. I agree with TLS's comment, that the Onkyo realistically puts out a lot less than advertised. 130x2 is at 6 Ohms, not 4, so its 4 Ohm output is likely inline with the Pioneer's and sufficient for needs.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I just pulled the trigger on an Onkyo tx-rz820. It says 130x7. With all 7 channels driven... do you think it even puts out 50 watts RMS to each channel in 7 channel mode?

Out of curiosity why are you concerned with the "all channels" driven spec? Rarely if ever there is a program full power demand at the same instant to all channels.
Doesn't need too much time lag that this matters, fractional second.

 

[Swerd]

On paper for both. Reality is, I'd expect them to be close, with the Onkyo being slightly more powerful. I agree with TLS's comment, that the Onkyo realistically puts out a lot less than advertised. 130x2 is at 6 Ohms, not 4, so its 4 Ohm output is likely inline with the Pioneer's and sufficient for needs.

The Onkyo manual clearly said 130×2 at 8 ohms, and the Pioneer manual clearly said 80×2 at 8 ohms. FTC ratings are always done with an 8 ohm load. TLS Guy either misread the Onkyo number or mistakenly typed 6 instead of 8. Neither FTC rating said anything about power with a 4 ohm load.

Any opinion that one brand puts out more or less power than another brand is still, at best, an educated guess. The FTC ratings are based on real measurements taken under defined conditions – no guessing or fudge-factors are involved. So I would either trust them, or report them to the FTC (they can take legal action). At the same time, I wouldn't trust any of the other power ratings listed on the specs page in those owner's manuals.

Edit: Upon re-reading, my comments do come off as kind of grouchy . I won't delete them but if you nominate me for the Get Off My Lawn Award, I won't protest .

 

[cameron paterson]

Swerd you're good... thanks for the info!

 

[M Code]

The Federal Trade Commission has nothing to do any longer with enforcing Power Output Disclosure in audio amplifiers....
Several years back, this was taken up by the CE trade association whose technical standards committee created the latest testing procedure. Note that the technical standards committee members were Panasonic, Sony and Bose...
Basic points are:

1. No preconditioning
2. Test measurements now done on 1 channel @ full power, other channels driven @ 1/8 power output
3. Some of the original FTC specs are mentioned but heavily watered down

Fast forward to now..
Major abuses continue to be done for power output disclosures so much that now some of them are out of control, ridiculous, total BS... For example, here is a link to a Pyle amplifier product sold by Amazon..

https://www.amazon.com/Pyle-P3001AT-3000W-Hybrid-Amplifier/dp/B0010KCP5M/ref=pd_sim_23_8?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0010KCP5M&pd_rd_r=QG7ZGHC8SC549J7VJGW4&pd_rd_w=POlL9&pd_rd_wg=axZAX&psc=1&refRID=QG7ZGHC8SC549J7VJGW4
3000 watts for $125...

IMHO..
The best way to judge power output specs for honesty is to stay with the proven major audio brands, anything else is total BS.. Also be advised that now with the internet and global brand websites for review, products sold in Europe typically show power output specs as:
Maximum Effective Output Power @1kHz, 10%THD, 1ch driven) (JEITA)
Dynamic Power per Channel (8/6/4/2 ohms)

Just my $0.02...

 

[Swerd]

The Federal Trade Commission has nothing to do any longer with enforcing Power Output Disclosure in audio amplifiers....
Several years back, this was taken up by the CE trade association whose technical standards committee created the latest testing procedure. Note that the technical standards committee members were Panasonic, Sony and Bose...
Basic points are:

1. No preconditioning
2. Test measurements now done on 1 channel @ full power, other channels driven @ 1/8 power output
3. Some of the original FTC specs are mentioned but heavily watered down

Interesting. I'm always glad to learn something new. Thanks
I wish you hadn't waited until I stuck my neck out so far ?

For those Onkyo power ratings where "FTC" is specifically mentioned on the specs page in the owners' manual:
www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/manuals/pdf/tx-rz820_bas_adv_manual_en.pdf. See page 38:

Rated Output Power (FTC) (North American).​

With 8 ohm loads, both channels driven, from 20-​

20,000 Hz; rated 130 watts per channel minimum​

RMS power, with no more than 0.08% total harmonic​

distortion from 250 milliwatts to rated output.​

Is that old information measured before the shift to the CE trade association? Or is it fiction?

 

[M Code]

Interesting. I'm always glad to learn something new. Thanks
I wish you hadn't waited until I stuck my neck out so far ?

For those Onkyo power ratings where "FTC" is specifically mentioned on the specs page in the owners' manual:
www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/manuals/pdf/tx-rz820_bas_adv_manual_en.pdf. See page 38:

Rated Output Power (FTC) (North American).​

With 8 ohm loads, both channels driven, from 20-​

20,000 Hz; rated 130 watts per channel minimum​

RMS power, with no more than 0.08% total harmonic​

distortion from 250 milliwatts to rated output.​

Is that old information measured before the shift to the CE trade association? Or is it fiction?

The posted Onkyo AVR power specs follow the guidelines I previously posted, derived from the CEA standards but the brand refers to them as the FTC as both the CEA & FTC statue require to disclose minimum RMS power, %THD, load impedance and power bandwidth. Note that (2) channels driven for a 7.1 AVR means the same as a single channel driven and the other 6 channels being driven @ 1/8 power. This equals 1 channel rated power + 6 channels @ 1/8; 1 channel + 6 channels x 1/8 or 1 & 3/4 channels driven rounded up to (2) channels driven. Also note on the same spec page U for ur link they also post JEITA power & Dynamic Power. As mentioned though these specs are done the same way for Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, and Onkyo as they are creditable audio brands. They may not tell the story of the amplifier's capable power output but at least they allow an easier way for a consumer to compare specs since they are measured using a comparable test procedure.

Just my $0.02..