Hosting infamous amp test

[AdrianMills]

Some of you have probably read the old Stereo Review amplifier test from the 80's that concluded all amplifiers more or less sound the same. It's a cool test and the article is well written.

It used to be hosted at http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf but the site has now been down for a week or so.

I just found the same article at http://webpages.charter.net/fryguy/Amp_Sound.pdf but I'm not sure how reliable this link is.

It would be a shame not to have that PDF easily available for reference when arguing with the "faithful" so would it be possible to host it here on Audioholics do you think or possibly some other reliable site – I have places that I could put it but they aren't exactly AV related...

And I'm not sure if there are copyright issues with this...

 

[mtrycrafts]

Some of you have probably read the old Stereo Review amplifier test from the 80's that concluded all amplifiers more or less sound the same. It's a cool test and the article is well written.

It used to be hosted at http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf but the site has now been down for a week or so.

I just found the same article at http://webpages.charter.net/fryguy/Amp_Sound.pdf but I'm not sure how reliable this link is.

It would be a shame not to have that PDF easily available for reference when arguing with the "faithful" so would it be possible to host it here on Audioholics do you think or possibly some other reliable site – I have places that I could put it but they aren't exactly AV related...

And I'm not sure if there are copyright issues with this...

We try to use that on the faithful, but nothing will convince them, nothing.
Perhaps we should ask them what will change their minds and proceed from there?

 

[pearsall001]

Why is it that only amps sound the same? Is it because they are simplistic in their designs versus other electronic gear. By simplistic I mean that their only job is to amplify a signal & pass it in down the line. I take it then that CD players are far more complicated electronic devices therefore they can sound different. I'm just trying to pick up bits & pieces of information to better educate myself in these discussions.

 

[AdrianMills]

Why is it that only amps sound the same? Is it because they are simplistic in their designs versus other electronic gear. By simplistic I mean that their only job is to amplify a signal & pass it in down the line. I take it then that CD players are far more complicated electronic devices therefore they can sound different. I'm just trying to pick up bits & pieces of information to better educate myself in these discussions.

There are a number of detailed articles discussing those topics on this site; you should probably take a look at them.

And yes, the design goal of most amps is to be a straight wire with gain - no additions or detractions - so if they sound "different" there's something wrong.

Hm, and I'd bet a good bit that most people couldn't tell one CD player from another given an adequate construction. That goes for all other electronic gizmos for that matter.

Getting back to amps - I go from being frustrated to indifferent to amazed by these faithful when they are presented with a logical argument.

There's an "do amps sound the same" thread currently in progress on another site - no not AVS - and the above PDF was presented and I mentioned that if you're not level matching then comparisons aren't valid and the response from one guy was, "Id dont listen to SPLs, or listen to test tone cds, i sit down and listen to music." And here's another from a different guy, "All the receivers were 75-125w range, all played at the exact same level(in dB) through B&W DM 602s in two channel direct. Same source, same song. I was able to switch between the amps at my whim. To me they all sounded different and generally the more expensive the better they sounded." He then goes on to say, “ I have a hard time understanding the argument that amplification makes little difference, that individual genetics effect on hearing structure make little difference and that our perception of that sensory input makes little difference.”

~sigh~ Really.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Why is it that only amps sound the same? Is it because they are simplistic in their designs versus other electronic gear. By simplistic I mean that their only job is to amplify a signal & pass it in down the line. I take it then that CD players are far more complicated electronic devices therefore they can sound different. I'm just trying to pick up bits & pieces of information to better educate myself in these discussions.

Well, That is one published article that is available on line.
There were CD DBTs in that time period as well. Some are available too someplace as Ian Masters was part of it.
However, not all amps sound the same as some think this is what is stated by objectivists. There are a few condition to them. Low output impedance will control frequency following of the speaker's response. Flat FR, below threshold of detection range, low distortion and not exceeding design limits, of course.

Same applies to CD players too. Complexity is not the issue.

 

[mtrycrafts]

and the response from one guy was, "Id dont listen to SPLs, or listen to test tone cds, i sit down and listen to music. And here's another from a different guy, "All the receivers were 75-125w range, all played at the exact same level(in dB) through B&W DM 602s in two channel direct. Same source, same song. I was able to switch between the amps at my whim. To me they all sounded different and generally the more expensive the better they sounded." He then goes on to say, “ I have a hard time understanding the argument that amplification makes little difference, that individual genetics effect on hearing structure make little difference and that our perception of that sensory input makes little difference.”
~sigh~ Really.

Nothing changes. Nothing new here over the years Nor any different from other areas of human endeavor or the consumer marketplace. Much easier to believe than to find reality and truth.

 

[mulester7]

Nothing changes. Nothing new here over the years Nor any different from other areas of human endeavor or the consumer marketplace. Much easier to believe than to find reality and truth.

.....raise your right hand and repeat after me...."I, Mtrycrafts, know nothing about this subject and speak from what others have told me in reviews and articles"....good, now go play on the freeway....Adrian, I said upper end amps can take weeks to find a definite preference....what could blind tests on unknown equipment yield in seconds or even minutes?....probably nothing past a slight difference being heard....then again, with minutes between hearing A and B, probably nothing......

 

[AdrianMills]

.....raise your right hand and repeat after me...."I, Mtrycrafts, know nothing about this subject and speak from what others have told me in reviews and articles"....good, now go play on the freeway....Adrian, I said upper end amps can take weeks to find a definite preference....what could blind tests on unknown equipment yield in seconds or even minutes?....probably nothing past a slight difference being heard....then again, with minutes between hearing A and B, probably nothing......

Weeks huh? So you admit that these people that talk of "night and day" differences are mistaken, deluded or lying then, right?

 

[mulester7]

Weeks huh? So you admit that these people that talk of "night and day" differences are mistaken, deluded or lying then, right?

.....Adrian, we all hear different....someone surely could hear the stuff much sooner than me....I'm 57 and have lost a little bit of hearing range at the extremes, but that allows me to better get inside the signals being amplified and speakered....I promise you, there was a definite presence-change between the three upper-cost amps I have....a new amp sounds different but will probably sound acceptable when the dust settles....wrong....that ain't grounds for marriage in my view.....

.....the first Crown K2 I ordered was for the mini-barns, since SVS pushes the Crown K-series....I tried it on my mains, and put my McIntosh amps into storage based on the seemingly gleaming cleanness of the K2....it had very good presence too....I ordered two more for $2700 when I got my taxes back in 2004....one more a few months later....then had four....along came Earthquake....I took that monster as long as I could with my speakers that became more and more offensive at the very top....decided to go back to the vintage McIntosh amps and see what was really there, after listening for months to others to compare to....one more time.....I didn't realize what I had back in '86....paired with the Mc pre, my pilgrimage of presence and the non-offensive highs was over....good grief, it's late....later....gotta' go 45 miles early on motorcycle to get dog medicine....here's news, Guys, a stock Triumph Rocket III will take a stock Yamaha V-Max in a quarter....battle of the upright sitters....crotch rockets are killing many of our young men....they ride on public highways where sand and gravel trucks travel also....they should be illegal except on closed circuit....a brand-new Suzuki Hiabusa, comes from the crate "governed" to only do 186 mph....mercy....speed is what kills, not a little honest acceleration to 110 and getting off it....night.....

 

[AdrianMills]

.....Adrian, we all hear different....someone surely could hear the stuff much sooner than me....I'm 57 and have lost a little bit of hearing range at the extremes, but that allows me to better get inside the signals being amplified and speakered....I promise you, there was a definite presence-change between the three upper-cost amps I have....a new amp sounds different but will probably sound acceptable when the dust settles....wrong....that ain't grounds for marriage in my view.....

Well, my father was visiting me a couple of months ago - he's 70 and partially deaf and wears a hearing aid when he remembers to bring it (which he didn't) - and he could immediately hear the night and day difference between my current crappy el-cheapo HTIB system and a pair of B&W 703S we went to audition; but that really was a night and day experience.

But you've heard this argument a million times before haven't you? You know, the one that says that if there really is a big difference it should be immediately apparent. So why is it that I can immediately tell the difference between a watch tick and a pin being dropped and yet it takes you audiophile guys a week to hear the difference between two pieces of electronics playing at 90dB's?

And the stubborn refusal of audiophiles to accept the results of a properly run blind test for one reason or another never ceases to amaze me. In the Stereo Review test almost all the audiophiles taking part signed off that it was a perfectly adequate test scenario but backed out on that once their expectations on the outcome hadn't been realized. Why is that do you think?

Some guy on another forum is saying that the Stereo Review "experiment" is highly flawed because it wasn't in a respected scientific journal. I mean, come on people, get with reality here. And I was actually “politely” told by an admin there that I've contributed enough to that argument. A pity, as I could say all sorts of things to some of the, uh, people that have replied there.

 

[rollinrocker]

Adrian,

What amp was driving those b&w's?

 

[AdrianMills]

Adrian,

What amp was driving those b&w's?

You are kidding of course? Right?

 

[bpape]

{sarcasm on} Well, if all amps sound the same then I guess it's a no-brainer for line stages. I mean seriously, they don't even have to amplify - just switch... And since wire is wire and most switches are just flat chunks of wire, then they can't be any different. Right? And seriously, CD players just read 1 and 0 and pass it out to an external D/A converter - how can they sound any different? {/sarcasm off}

While amps may sound almost identical in small comparisons and with speakers that are relatively easy to drive, there are situations where they are very different.

Teke for instance a pair of Apogee Duettas and a pair of B&W's. The B&W's are relatviely benign and something like a Proceed AMP2 and a Classe whatever (level matched identically) will sound very similar (though differences are there) on the B&W's.

Switch to the Duettas. The Proceed will fall apart - no bottom end, no dynamics, very flat sounding. The Classe will drive them just fine - bass is there, they still image, they still have some snap, etc.

Why? Power supply, output impedance, dynamic headroom, etc. When not needed on a relatively benign load, the differences are not as apparent. When the going gets tough, it shows. Most amps won't even WORK with the Duettas (< 2 ohm load in places). That's a HUGE difference in sound (nothing because it physically goes into protection mode vs. music playing )

I guess my point is that just becasue 1 comparison over a relatively short time doesn't show something statistically significant, that doesn't mean that it might not in another, in another system, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[AdrianMills]

Why? Power supply, output impedance, dynamic headroom, etc. When not needed on a relatively benign load, the differences are not as apparent.

But you are talking of something entirely different aren't you?

That is why it is always stated or at least implied that amps all sound the same when being driven within their clipping and distortion limits. And no one ever implies that an el-cheapo 20W amp can drive the same sort of loads that a quality 200W amp can. But that is a different thing to *sounding* different isn't it?

 

[mulester7]

But you've heard this argument a million times before haven't you? You know, the one that says that if there really is a big difference it should be immediately apparent.

.....it IS usually immediately apparent, but sometimes I have to absorb it for awhile, then jump back to A to figure out WHY it's different....

 

[AdrianMills]

.....it IS usually immediately apparent, but sometimes I have to absorb it for awhile, then jump back to A to figure out WHY it's different....

So the A/B blind tests are useful? Look, I’m sorry but you can't have it both ways; either it takes you audiophile guys a week or it's immediate.

And look at the test that this thread is all about; at the most extreme they tested $12,000 of Flutterman tube amp against a $200 Pioneer receiver, and people still couldn't make out a difference in the sound no matter if they had a long listening session or a short A/B. Maybe it's just me, but if I paid 12 grand on a bit of kit I'd want it to immediately sound a lot better than a $200 receiver especially when I can get that amount of power so much cheaper elsewhere.

 

[mulester7]

So the A/B blind tests are useful? Look, I’m sorry but you can't have it both ways; either it takes you audiophile guys a week or it's immediate.

And look at the test that this thread is all about; at the most extreme they tested $12,000 of Flutterman tube amp against a $200 Pioneer receiver, and people still couldn't make out a difference in the sound no matter if they had a long listening session or a short A/B. Maybe it's just me, but if I paid 12 grand on a bit of kit I'd want it to immediately sound a lot better than a $200 receiver especially when I can get that amount of power so much cheaper elsewhere.

.....I've never heard a Flutterman tubed amp or the $200 Pioneer receiver used in the comparison, Adrian, so I can't speak....but you ain't gonna' hear that much difference in amps....what was acting as a pre-amp to the Flutterman amp?....if it was fed the pre-outs of the receiver, it might not have sounded that different, I don't know, I wasn't there getting Fluttered.....

.....edit....any of you Guys ever get Fluttered by a Flutterman tubed amp?....did them eyeballs kinda' roll back in that head?....huh?....

.....does Flutterman make a pre-amp?....could be good stuff there.......

 

[AdrianMills]

.....I've never heard a Flutterman tubed amp or the $200 Pioneer receiver used in the comparison, Adrian, so I can't speak....but you ain't gonna' hear that much difference in amps....what was acting as a pre-amp to the Flutterman amp?....if it was fed the pre-outs of the receiver, it might not have sounded that different, I don't know, I wasn't there getting Fluttered.....

The whole set up was "audiophile" grade from end to end with the amps being the only things changing. Even the audiophile believers were satisfied with the set up... at least they were until they found out that they couldn't here a difference.

Anyway, this discussion is getting nowhere as is usual with these type of arguments, so let’s agree to disagree shall we?

 

[mulester7]

The whole set up was "audiophile" grade from end to end with the amps being the only things changing. Even the audiophile believers were satisfied with the set up... at least they were until they found out that they couldn't here a difference.

Anyway, this discussion is getting nowhere as is usual with these type of arguments, so let’s agree to disagree shall we?

.....Adrian, I would have to know two things....the spl level of the comparison, and what acted as a pre-amp to the Flutterman amp....Adrian, cutting the chase, get two pieces of used Mc, and get back with us, Bud.....and you bet, we'll agree to disagree, but I'm telling you, you ain't heard what almost sounds eery at times....and I'll say yet, evidently....do you doubt the report of a hidden 3D button?, haha........I can say a complete chamber of McIntosh's live presence is wonderful....

 

[jaxvon]

I wonder if Bruce Knows his site is down? He's a mod here on AH...