HiFi System Questions/ Buying Advice -- Music Only

[CB22]

For home theater/ gaming my klipsch RP 280F's are doing the job just fine, however when it comes to music I'm not hearing that sweet mid bass. It seems like the tweeter on these speakers are almost overpowering. Rock/ Rap no complaints. However, jazz/classical could be better in that area.

Question #1: Speakers
What bookshelf or floor standing speakers are out there for under 2.5k that you'd recommend for a music only set up? (I've read about the OHM Walsh 2000s, Martin Logan Motion 20s, and B&W 700 series but keep in mind I've never actually listened to any of these just read the reviews online)

Question #2: PreAmp/ Amp
About a year ago, I dropped some big bucks on the Anthem MRX 720. I still have two channels open that can be set for a zone 2 input. I'm pretty sure just using the Anthem would be fine. What would I get out of my system if I would up buying something like a Yamaha as 2100 or PS audio's Stellar M700 GCD combo? (keep in mind, If I buy this, I'd need to spend more money on a CD or digital transport with a balanced output.) Do you think there would be an audible difference in this? Enough to justify the cost?

Your audioholic war lord advice is much appreciated!

 

[speakerman39]

For home theater/ gaming my klipsch RP 280F's are doing the job just fine, however when it comes to music I'm not hearing that sweet mid bass. It seems like the tweeter on these speakers are almost overpowering. Rock/ Rap no complaints. However, jazz/classical could be better in that area.

Question #1: Speakers
What bookshelf or floor standing speakers are out there for under 2.5k that you'd recommend for a music only set up? (I've read about the OHM Walsh 2000s, Martin Logan Motion 20s, and B&W 700 series but keep in mind I've never actually listened to any of these just read the reviews online)

Question #2: PreAmp/ Amp
About a year ago, I dropped some big bucks on the Anthem MRX 720. I still have two channels open that can be set for a zone 2 input. I'm pretty sure just using the Anthem would be fine. What would I get out of my system if I would up buying something like a Yamaha as 2100 or PS audio's Stellar M700 GCD combo? (keep in mind, If I buy this, I'd need to spend more money on a CD or digital transport with a balanced output.) Do you think there would be an audible difference in this? Enough to justify the cost?

Your audioholic war lord advice is much appreciated!

For a music only setup, I would highly recommend the Philharmonic Audio BMR's. For about $1800 a set, you can get the cabinets in a furniture grade finish built by Jim Salk. Here is a link:


http://philharmonicaudio.com/BMR Philharmonitor.html


The BMR's is a 3-way design that uses the RAAL tweeter and Scan Speak 7" mid w/a BMR radiator midrange driver. Hence, the BMR's are extremely ruler-flat both on and off axis. Powered by your MRX 720, you would easily be on your way to sonic nirvana! Just saying..............


Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

CB22, here is a user review that you may find interesting as well:


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1954057-speaker-review-phil-bmr-dennis-murphy.html


Your welcome!


Cheers,

Phil

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I usually ignore Phil over differences in opinion over various things (too many to mention here) but he's right, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better sounding speaker for this money.

Don't overthink electronics, pick a Yamaha integrated amp would do the job just fine, A-S501 for example. It was measured to be an excellent performer, much better than it's price would suggest.


If you prefer tower speakers, I'd also recommend Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower (possibly with ribbon twitter optional upgrade)
Salk Song3 or Song Tower RT.

Dennis Murphy of Philharmonic audio was responsive for a design of crossovers for most(all?) Salk speakers.

Honestly, you won't be disappointed by any of these extremely fine speakers.

(p.s: I heard lots of speakers, up to about $100k, yet I consider Salk SS8 best speaker I ever heard, for any price)

 

[CB22]

Ugggg the there all so pretty! Salk SS8 are look super good but unfortunately that 8k price tag is a bit out of my immediate price range. At that price point, I think I'll be calling Philharmonic Audio BMR's.

Question for you Mr. BoredSysAdmin: What advantages would I get from the A-S501 that I would not get from my Anthem?

 

[Good4it]

you will 6-8 months for the BMR cabinet by Salk! 1-2 weeks with standard cabinets.

 

[CB22]

you will 6-8 months for the BMR cabinet by Salk! 1-2 weeks with standard cabinets.

Well I just emailed them about that. That answers that. I do like the piano black though. + saves some cash

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Ugggg the there all so pretty! Salk SS8 are look super good but unfortunately that 8k price tag is a bit out of my immediate price range. At that price point, I think I'll be calling Philharmonic Audio BMR's.

Question for you Mr. BoredSysAdmin: What advantages would I get from the A-S501 that I would not get from my Anthem?

Well, the biggest advantage for S501 vs MRX 720 is that you could save tons of money on electronics which would sound the same (absolutely identically so with sound modes/eq disabled). By FAR the largest contributor to sound quality, think over 90%, is the speakers (if your source material is good). (Rest 9% is room acoustics issues and 1% electronics)
So Saving on electronics, but spending more on speakers will guarantee you better overall system.

ps: Song 3A (same sweet midrange as SoundScape8) with Yamaha S501 is definitely within your budget.
https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/yamaha-a-s801-amplifier-review.
S501 is nearly identical, with a bit less power. Don't get stuck on power either. it takes 6x the power to double the volume. Most of the times you'd be using only a few watts at most.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Question #2: PreAmp/ Amp
I dropped some big bucks on the Anthem MRX 720. I still have two channels open that can be set for a zone 2 input. I'm pretty sure just using the Anthem would be fine.

If you can use your current $2500 Anthem AVR for 2Ch music, then there is no reason to spend extra money on another component because it won't sound any better, especially in Direct Mode.

 

[CB22]

If you can use your current $2500 Anthem AVR for 2Ch music, then there is no reason to spend extra money on another component because it won't sound any better, especially in Direct Mode.

Yep, thats the plan. I actually just finished running two new wires today. I pulled the trigger on the BMR's - the standard cabinet in cherry. I'm sure I will like them but just incase I saw they had a two week home trail period.

 

[CB22]

Thanks for the advice!

 

[speakerman39]

If you can use your current $2500 Anthem AVR for 2Ch music, then there is no reason to spend extra money on another component because it won't sound any better, especially in Direct Mode.

If the OP uses "Party" mode he can use the MRX 720's powered Zone 2 to power the BMR's regardless of input. At least, that is the way I understand it. Hence, a lot of AVR's will power Zone 2 from analog sources only.

Interestingly, I never knew that ARC does not set speaker distances. Oh well, I learn something new every single day. Very nice AVR if you ask me. Congrats to the OP for both the MRX 720 and/or the BMR's!


Cheers,

Phil

 

[CB22]

If the OP uses "Party" mode he can use the MRX 720's powered Zone 2 to power the BMR's regardless of input. At least, that is the way I understand it. Hence, a lot of AVR's will power Zone 2 from analog sources only.

Interestingly, I never knew that ARC does not set speaker distances. Oh well, I learn something new every single day. Very nice AVR if you ask me. Congrats to the OP for both the MRX 720 and/or the BMR's!


Cheers,

Phil

What does "OP" mean? Yes, one I hook up the speakers and set them for zone 2, the Anthem will deliver 75w's per channel, which should do the trick. Arc set the speakers distances for me under the listening position menu.

 

[speakerman39]

What does "OP" mean? Yes, one I hook up the speakers and set them for zone 2, the Anthem will deliver 75w's per channel, which should do the trick. Arc set the speakers distances for me under the listening position menu.

"OP" means original poster. I read that ARC does not set speaker distances here at Crutchfield:


Notes:

• To use Anthem Room Correction (ARC), you will need a Windows-based laptop or computer (Vista or newer) with a CD drive.
• Both, the Anthem AV receiver and your Windows PC must be connected to the same network.
• You will need to manually calculate speaker distances from main listening position before or after running ARC (ARC does not auto-detect speaker distance).
• You can manually tweak the ARC measurements after they are computed, or you can choose to bypass ARC and manually configure the receiver and your speaker setup.

Here is the link:


https://www.crutchfield.com/p_973MRX720/Anthem-MRX-720.html


This could be wrong info as I am not sure. Never owned an Anthem product. But, sure would love to. Have owned the Paradigm Studio 20 v.3's about 12-years ago.



Cheers,

Phil

 

[<eargiant]

For home theater/ gaming my klipsch RP 280F's are doing the job just fine, however when it comes to music I'm not hearing that sweet mid bass. It seems like the tweeter on these speakers are almost overpowering. Rock/ Rap no complaints. However, jazz/classical could be better in that area.

Question #1: Speakers
What bookshelf or floor standing speakers are out there for under 2.5k that you'd recommend for a music only set up? (I've read about the OHM Walsh 2000s, Martin Logan Motion 20s, and B&W 700 series but keep in mind I've never actually listened to any of these just read the reviews online)

Question #2: PreAmp/ Amp
About a year ago, I dropped some big bucks on the Anthem MRX 720. I still have two channels open that can be set for a zone 2 input. I'm pretty sure just using the Anthem would be fine. What would I get out of my system if I would up buying something like a Yamaha as 2100 or PS audio's Stellar M700 GCD combo? (keep in mind, If I buy this, I'd need to spend more money on a CD or digital transport with a balanced output.) Do you think there would be an audible difference in this? Enough to justify the cost?

Your audioholic war lord advice is much appreciated!

No doubt in my mind, I’d get the Bowers & Wilkins 705S2. Case closed. Start there and then decide on your amplification needs. You will not regret it. Place them on solid stands and supplement them with a REL sub if needed and you will be in pure bliss for a long time (until you choose to jump to the 805’s ). The 705s (plus REL if needed) will vastly outperform most floor-standers in the same price range and offer more flexibility with room placement.

For me, my 805D2 are the BEST stand-mounts I have ever owned or auditioned... by a long shot. Combined with my REL S/2 sub they are the best transducers I have ever owned. They are the ones to beat in my house.

IMO the higher level Martin Logan’s are too bright and the Motions did nothing for me. The 705 are light years ahead. Full disclosure, I have never auditioned the Ohms but I have auditioned a boatload of other speakers.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No doubt in my mind, I’d get the Bowers & Wilkins 705S2. Case closed.
Good luck with whatever you decide.

I pulled the trigger on the BMR's - the standard cabinet in cherry. I'm sure I will like them but just incase I saw they had a two week home trail period.

I believe he already ordered the Philharmonic BMR speakers with the 2-week in-home trial (buyer is responsible for shipping charges both ways).

Objectively, the Philharmonic speakers will have better on-axis and off-axis speaker measurements than the B&W 805D3.

But we'll see how the BMRs fare in the subjective listening test.

I personally prefer the sound of speakers that have very good on-axis and off-axis, but everyone is different.

The B&W 805D3 and B&W 705S2 would probably have more prestige, which might add to the subjective listening test.

 

[<eargiant]

I believe he already ordered the Philharmonic BMR speakers with the 2-week in-home trial (buyer is responsible for shipping charges both ways).

Oops, I missed that. Good luck OP, let us know what you think. I've had both of Dennis' AAs in here. He did a great job on the BS-22s (I did not like the stock version). I usually "listen and sell" but I kept those little guys in the family. Great little speaker, I gave them to my son.

I actually almost ordered the BMR myself at one point but I changed my mind because I had another 3-way rear-ported stand-mount that dug deep in the spot I was considering the BMRs for and I felt that they would be too bass heavy there. The BMRs seem like a speaker that would do well placed out into the room. I may still try them one day for another room .

Objectively, the Philharmonic speakers will have better on-axis and off-axis speaker measurements than the B&W 805D3.

True but remember, they have to be measured exactly the same way with the same equipment in the same room before you can definitively make that statement.

I personally prefer the sound of speakers that have very good on-axis and off-axis,

I doubt you would you be able to tell in a blind test just based on that attribute alone. Believe me, I've heard some dogs that supposedly had fantastic measurements all around. Yeah I know, Floyd says most people prefer them (but compared to what speakers?). Not all imperfect off-axis speakers are created equal.

What if while you were still blindfolded I changed the toe-in angle of the speakers with the "lesser" off axis measurement? Would that speaker still be objectionable to your ears?

but everyone is different.

As is every listening room...and BTW, those listening rooms are also different from the rooms where the measurements many view as gospel were taken.

The B&W 805D3 and B&W 705S2 would probably have more prestige, which might add to the subjective listening test.

Yes I agree that some will believe that more $$ is always better. I'm definitely not one of them. I've heard plenty of stratospherically priced speakers that I thought were dreadful. I've also auditioned expensive speakers that did not measure perfectly but were amazing.

A couple years ago I auditioned the Gamut RS7 at the New York Audio Show. It was my last room stop after a day of listening to a variety of excellent speakers. I recall telling the Gamut reps that they were IMO "Best In Show". A writer for one of the rags (who shall remain nameless) was in the room and he agreed with me.

I don't let high price, low price, good measurements or imperfect measurements (which I later read the RS7s had) cloud my opinion. What matters to me is what a speaker sounds like from my listening position in the room I'm auditioning them in. Nothing else.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...they have to be measured exactly the same way with the same equipment in the same room

Have you seen ANY measurements of ANY 800Ds series from ANY publications that show a flat on-axis (no more than +/- 3dB) and smooth off-axis?

I keep thinking there has to be at least one measurement that shows a flat on-axis and smooth off-axis, but I have not seen it.

Do B&W have their own anechoic measurements to show?

I doubt you would you be able to tell in a blind test...

Ah, the blind test!

I doubt you would be able to tell the difference among amps in a BLIND TEST.

I doubt a lot of things people subjectively say (as gospel) compared to a BLIND TEST.

...What matters to me is what a speaker sounds like from my listening position in the room...

I can't argue with what people hear subjectively in their rooms.

Everyone says the same about their speakers sounding better than your speakers, my speakers, and others.

Some people say their $2,000 speakers sound better than the $30,000 B&W 800D3 because that's what it subjectively sounds like to them in their rooms.

I definitely agree with you that every room is different. Some speakers may sound better in some rooms vs. other rooms. Some rooms require less tweaking than others.

 

[<eargiant]

Have you seen ANY measurements of ANY 800Ds series from ANY publications that show a flat on-axis (no more than +/- 3dB) and smooth off-axis?

I keep thinking there has to be at least one measurement that shows a flat on-axis and smooth off-axis, but I have not seen it.

Do B&W have their own anechoic measurements to show?

I haven't really looked for one but personally I just don't think it's as big of a deal as some make it out to be. Obviously, Bowers & Wilkins with all their years of experience and resources doesn't think so either. Maybe they have a good reason for that.

I think they have done a wonderful job all around with the 800 line. I've owned mine for 2 years and every time I switch to other speakers for a while and then return to them I'm reminded just how amazing they really are. I mean- they're jaw-dropping so I'm not going to lose sleep over an imperfect off-axis measurement especially when the on axis has a bit of a spike.

To toe-in or not to toe-in, that is the question...

Anyway, with regard to the off-axis- IMO what I think would be most important is how they sound (or measure) from the listening chair with the angle I've selected. I don't listen to all speakers with the tweeter aiming directly at my ears, do you? Nor do I listen to them all aimed into the room. It depends on the speaker. Perfect uniformity across the sofa or room, who gives a hoot? Not me, especially when I get everything else that a speaker like the 800 has to offer.

If you're interested, I do not have my 805D2s toed-in at all so the tweeters do not aim directly at my ears as they do in all on-axis measurements. I have them faced directly into the room spaced ~7' apart (tweeter to tweeter) and I sit ~9' feet away. In this position, in my room they sound very neutral and the sound-stage is second to none. They sound best to me that way and that's all that counts.

Ah, the blind test!

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[KEW]

No doubt in my mind, I’d get the Bowers & Wilkins 705S2. Case closed. Start there and then decide on your amplification needs. You will not regret it.

Whether you knew he had already bought the BMR's or not, I cannot understand why you would make such emphatic statements about the 705's being superior to the BMR's!
You could not have missed that they were his primary candidate (assuming you scanned the thread before posting), and I know you've been around here long enough to know that the BMR's have a stellar reputation, and since you have experienced Murphy's modification of the Pioneer BS-22, you are aware of what Murphy charged to for his work (not much more than the cost of the components).
So, why is there no doubt in your mind? How are you certain that the BMR's cannot be better than the 705's, equal, or, at least, worthy competition at 40% less than the 705's?
For starters, the BMR's reasonably can be expected to have better bass, given a larger woofer and larger cabinet (the BMR is the speaker he sent to NRC to measure at 32 Hz - 20kHz +/-2db Anechoic). The 705 S2 is spec'ed at 45Hz by B&W.
Weight is no solid indicator of SQ, but the BMR's are 38lb ea. vs the 705 at 20.5lb ea. That is 85% more which is more than the larger cabinet by itself would account for.
Every speaker Murphy sells represents an incredible value - he is not trying to make a living or grow his business - aside from the $50 he donates to the local orchestra, he gives himself a modest pay rate (around minimum wage) for his labor, and depends on word of mouth for his marketing budget (free). He is retired and just happy to share his talent and passion!
B&W has a reputation for a quality product, but no one has ever accused them of not maintaining their profit margins.
I am not trying to convince you that the BMR's are better speakers. I have not heard the 705 S2's; however I am trying to get you to consider that they just might be better speakers. They are very good, and, aside from bass, the RAAL tweeter is an established "world class" tweeter!

CB22,
In case you missed it, one truly amazing stand-out aspect of the BMR speakers is their off-axis performance! I cannot say for certain you will like it (I do), but the red line is on-axis and the green line is a whopping 80 degrees off-axis. As you can see they track within 5dB of each other throughout the frequency range. Likely, any seat you would listen to music from would be less than 30 degrees off-axis (the blue line) which tracks close to within 1 dB! Effectively, there won't be a bad seat in the house! It is somewhat uncanny!