Irvrobinson Audioholic Spartan Dec 7, 2004 6,754 0 113 Dec 6, 2012 #41 monkish54 said: That's different. 2 reasons. 1. Dennis is a very well known man in DIY circles and now because of Salk and Philharmonic he is known by most who browse the forums. He has been very very generous with the DIY community, myself included. We know that Dennis wouldn't fudge measurements, use 10db scales, write a snake oily sales pitch etc. 2. Dennis was making almost nothing on the speakers at the time. He requested I pay by check as PayPal fee would wipe out his "profit margins". He's not fudging for 3% of a few grand. We didn't need 3rd party measurements because the 1st party has integrity. Click to expand... Nothing against Dennis or his products, but this is very weak reasoning. Nor am I advocating Legacy Audio. Even though I'm a former owner of Legacy products, I tend not to agree with their design philosophy. You might have mentioned that some purchasers with a high degree of credibility here were happy with the Phils (like ADTG and GranteedEV). My point is that if you limit yourself to speakers that have been tested by organizations like Stereophile or Audioholics, or with designers that have a high degree of internet popularity, you're going to find yourself with very limited choices. I also think you have to actually listen to speakers and make some choices. For example, the KEF 207/2 measured awesomely well in Stereophile, but I heard it twice in excellent dealer listening rooms and I didn't like it as much as I did the Salon 2 or the Orion. If I just looked at the measurements and ordered I would have been disappointed. Reactions: addictaudio and cpp
monkish54 said: That's different. 2 reasons. 1. Dennis is a very well known man in DIY circles and now because of Salk and Philharmonic he is known by most who browse the forums. He has been very very generous with the DIY community, myself included. We know that Dennis wouldn't fudge measurements, use 10db scales, write a snake oily sales pitch etc. 2. Dennis was making almost nothing on the speakers at the time. He requested I pay by check as PayPal fee would wipe out his "profit margins". He's not fudging for 3% of a few grand. We didn't need 3rd party measurements because the 1st party has integrity. Click to expand... Nothing against Dennis or his products, but this is very weak reasoning. Nor am I advocating Legacy Audio. Even though I'm a former owner of Legacy products, I tend not to agree with their design philosophy. You might have mentioned that some purchasers with a high degree of credibility here were happy with the Phils (like ADTG and GranteedEV). My point is that if you limit yourself to speakers that have been tested by organizations like Stereophile or Audioholics, or with designers that have a high degree of internet popularity, you're going to find yourself with very limited choices. I also think you have to actually listen to speakers and make some choices. For example, the KEF 207/2 measured awesomely well in Stereophile, but I heard it twice in excellent dealer listening rooms and I didn't like it as much as I did the Salon 2 or the Orion. If I just looked at the measurements and ordered I would have been disappointed.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Dec 6, 2012 #42 Irvrobinson said: For example, the KEF 207/2 measured awesomely well in Stereophile, but I heard it twice in excellent dealer listening rooms and I didn't like it as much as I did the Salon 2 or the Orion. Click to expand... I think it's the setup. They probably tried to be fancy and ran Audyssey or some other RC. Without actually measuring the speaker response at the listening position, there is no guarantee that the rooms were excellent. I hate it when dealers use RC like Audyssey or ARC. They should just leave it on Pure Direct mode. I also heard the 802D twice at a very nice B&W/McIntosh/Classe dealer. The room was treated with bass traps and acoustic panels. I didn't like the sound the 1st two times, but loved it the 3rd and 4th times. Dealer rooms, placement, setup, etc, will vary, Last edited: Dec 6, 2012 Reactions: monkish54
Irvrobinson said: For example, the KEF 207/2 measured awesomely well in Stereophile, but I heard it twice in excellent dealer listening rooms and I didn't like it as much as I did the Salon 2 or the Orion. Click to expand... I think it's the setup. They probably tried to be fancy and ran Audyssey or some other RC. Without actually measuring the speaker response at the listening position, there is no guarantee that the rooms were excellent. I hate it when dealers use RC like Audyssey or ARC. They should just leave it on Pure Direct mode. I also heard the 802D twice at a very nice B&W/McIntosh/Classe dealer. The room was treated with bass traps and acoustic panels. I didn't like the sound the 1st two times, but loved it the 3rd and 4th times. Dealer rooms, placement, setup, etc, will vary,
R ridikas Banned Jan 8, 2012 290 0 0 Dec 6, 2012 #43 Gentlemen, both brands measure terrible across the product lines. With so many awesome options, why waste time and money on subpar products?
Gentlemen, both brands measure terrible across the product lines. With so many awesome options, why waste time and money on subpar products?
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Dec 6, 2012 #44 ridikas said: Gentlemen, both brands measure terrible across the product lines. With so many awesome options, why waste time and money on subpar products? Click to expand... Did you see the HTM measurement of the MA GX? "The Monitor Audio GX50’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.17/–1.95 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz." Monitor Audio Gold GX50 Speaker System HT Labs Measures | Home Theater That looks pretty good to me. Reactions: cpp and gene
ridikas said: Gentlemen, both brands measure terrible across the product lines. With so many awesome options, why waste time and money on subpar products? Click to expand... Did you see the HTM measurement of the MA GX? "The Monitor Audio GX50’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.17/–1.95 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz." Monitor Audio Gold GX50 Speaker System HT Labs Measures | Home Theater That looks pretty good to me.
R ridikas Banned Jan 8, 2012 290 0 0 Dec 6, 2012 #45 AcuDefTechGuy said: Did you see the HTM measurement of the MA GX? "The Monitor Audio GX50’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.17/–1.95 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz." Monitor Audio Gold GX50 Speaker System HT Labs Measures | Home Theater That looks pretty good to me. Click to expand... I've seen those and I'm not impressed. They have no baffle step and a rising top end. They will sound very bright and forward in most rooms. They also only have 5" midwoofers. The asking price is ridiculous for what you get.
AcuDefTechGuy said: Did you see the HTM measurement of the MA GX? "The Monitor Audio GX50’s listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.17/–1.95 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz." Monitor Audio Gold GX50 Speaker System HT Labs Measures | Home Theater That looks pretty good to me. Click to expand... I've seen those and I'm not impressed. They have no baffle step and a rising top end. They will sound very bright and forward in most rooms. They also only have 5" midwoofers. The asking price is ridiculous for what you get.
zieglj01 Audioholic Spartan Aug 30, 2010 6,983 0 113 Dec 6, 2012 #46 ridikas said: Gentlemen, both brands measure terrible across the product lines. With so many awesome options, why waste time and money on subpar products? Click to expand... And yet, you bought Epos speakers - now that is interesting.
ridikas said: Gentlemen, both brands measure terrible across the product lines. With so many awesome options, why waste time and money on subpar products? Click to expand... And yet, you bought Epos speakers - now that is interesting.
R ridikas Banned Jan 8, 2012 290 0 0 Dec 6, 2012 #47 zieglj01 said: And yet, you bought Epos speakers - now that is interesting. Click to expand... I did?? The Epos sounded killer though...
zieglj01 said: And yet, you bought Epos speakers - now that is interesting. Click to expand... I did?? The Epos sounded killer though...
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Dec 6, 2012 #48 zieglj01 said: And yet, you bought Epos speakers - now that is interesting. Click to expand... Which Epos? Here is the Epos Epic2. It's +5dB @10kHz, kind of bright. Epos Epic 2 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
zieglj01 said: And yet, you bought Epos speakers - now that is interesting. Click to expand... Which Epos? Here is the Epos Epic2. It's +5dB @10kHz, kind of bright. Epos Epic 2 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
R ridikas Banned Jan 8, 2012 290 0 0 Dec 6, 2012 #49 AcuDefTechGuy said: Which Epos? Here is the Epos Epic2. It's +5dB @10kHz, kind of bright. Epos Epic 2 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com Click to expand... These are them! I didn't buy them, but best sounding (not measuring) speakers in their class
AcuDefTechGuy said: Which Epos? Here is the Epos Epic2. It's +5dB @10kHz, kind of bright. Epos Epic 2 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com Click to expand... These are them! I didn't buy them, but best sounding (not measuring) speakers in their class
A addictaudio Audioholic Dec 5, 2012 204 0 18 Dec 6, 2012 #50 WOW, I would have never imagined that receiving so many responses in such a short period of time. THANK YOU to all that have contributed so far to this thread. VERY useful information. Unfortunately, it has not made the decision any easier, LOL. It has raised more questions than answers. From what I have gathered here, the simple fact that a speaker measures well, does not mean that it will sound good to everyone, and vice versa. I am not technologically savvy with electronics. What exactly does it mean when you all state that a speaker measures well? What does all of the plus and minus a certain number of decibels mean? On Axis response stands for the response of the field that the speaker is aimed at and off axis is the field surrounding the speaker, but not directly on its path? Some explanations of these terminologies would be beneficial. PS: RIDIKAS, the GX 300 towers and GX350C center have two 6 1/2 inch woofers and a 4-inch midrange in each speaker. Now the Legacy Signature SE has two ten-inch woofers, a seven inch midwoofer, and the new dual air motion tweeter, which kind of has a small 4-inch tweeter to handle lower frequencies and a smaller super tweeter for the higher frequencies. The Silverscreen center has two 8-inch woofers, a 5 1/4 inch midrange, and the ribbon super tweeter, but they will not get the new dual AMT. PSS: Audioholics will soon be testing the Legacy Focus SE with the new dual AMT. Legacy is building Audioholics a set to test. In fact, Gene conducted an interview with Bill from Legacy recently. Reactions: AcuDefTechGuy
WOW, I would have never imagined that receiving so many responses in such a short period of time. THANK YOU to all that have contributed so far to this thread. VERY useful information. Unfortunately, it has not made the decision any easier, LOL. It has raised more questions than answers. From what I have gathered here, the simple fact that a speaker measures well, does not mean that it will sound good to everyone, and vice versa. I am not technologically savvy with electronics. What exactly does it mean when you all state that a speaker measures well? What does all of the plus and minus a certain number of decibels mean? On Axis response stands for the response of the field that the speaker is aimed at and off axis is the field surrounding the speaker, but not directly on its path? Some explanations of these terminologies would be beneficial. PS: RIDIKAS, the GX 300 towers and GX350C center have two 6 1/2 inch woofers and a 4-inch midrange in each speaker. Now the Legacy Signature SE has two ten-inch woofers, a seven inch midwoofer, and the new dual air motion tweeter, which kind of has a small 4-inch tweeter to handle lower frequencies and a smaller super tweeter for the higher frequencies. The Silverscreen center has two 8-inch woofers, a 5 1/4 inch midrange, and the ribbon super tweeter, but they will not get the new dual AMT. PSS: Audioholics will soon be testing the Legacy Focus SE with the new dual AMT. Legacy is building Audioholics a set to test. In fact, Gene conducted an interview with Bill from Legacy recently.
zieglj01 Audioholic Spartan Aug 30, 2010 6,983 0 113 Dec 6, 2012 #51 AcuDefTechGuy said: Which Epos? Click to expand... http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/857862-post1.html Reactions: AcuDefTechGuy
AcuDefTechGuy said: Which Epos? Click to expand... http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/857862-post1.html
gene Audioholics Master Chief Administrator Jul 1, 2002 10,225 0 120 52 Florida www.audioholics.com Dec 6, 2012 #52 ridikas said: Because they measure better. Better measurements = better sound. Google "legacy audio anechoic." Then do the same for all of the other brands. Look at the measurements from Stereophile, Sound Stage, and Home Theater. If you cannot find the exact model, look at other speakers from the same manufacturer, it will give you a very good idea. Click to expand... That is very poor advice. Measurements are easy to manipulate and misinterpret. It's extremely easy to use junk parts and a simplistic crossover in a two-way speaker system to produce a flat on-axis response curve at low power levels. It's very difficult to equate loudspeaker measurements to audible preference and large speakers with multiple drivers, sometimes on multiple cabinet faces are very challenging to properly measure. Reactions: cpp, zieglj01, AcuDefTechGuy and 3 others
ridikas said: Because they measure better. Better measurements = better sound. Google "legacy audio anechoic." Then do the same for all of the other brands. Look at the measurements from Stereophile, Sound Stage, and Home Theater. If you cannot find the exact model, look at other speakers from the same manufacturer, it will give you a very good idea. Click to expand... That is very poor advice. Measurements are easy to manipulate and misinterpret. It's extremely easy to use junk parts and a simplistic crossover in a two-way speaker system to produce a flat on-axis response curve at low power levels. It's very difficult to equate loudspeaker measurements to audible preference and large speakers with multiple drivers, sometimes on multiple cabinet faces are very challenging to properly measure.
A addictaudio Audioholic Dec 5, 2012 204 0 18 Dec 6, 2012 #53 PS: I do not have an obsession with measurements. In fact, this is all new to me. AcuDefTechGuy pointed me out to this new realm of measurements. D You can blame him.
PS: I do not have an obsession with measurements. In fact, this is all new to me. AcuDefTechGuy pointed me out to this new realm of measurements. D You can blame him.
A addictaudio Audioholic Dec 5, 2012 204 0 18 Dec 6, 2012 #54 gene said: That is very poor advice. Measurements are easy to manipulate and misinterpret. It's extremely easy to use junk parts and a simplistic crossover in a two-way speaker system to produce a flat on-axis response curve at low power levels. It's very difficult to equate loudspeaker measurements to audible preference and large speakers with multiple drivers, sometimes on multiple cabinet faces are very challenging to properly measure. Click to expand... Thanks Gene. Gene is a blessing to the audio world and a class act to boot. A super nice gentleman. Gene, I know that you are super busy. When you get a chance to answer my e-mail from a couple of weeks ago, that would be much appreciated. Thank you sir.
gene said: That is very poor advice. Measurements are easy to manipulate and misinterpret. It's extremely easy to use junk parts and a simplistic crossover in a two-way speaker system to produce a flat on-axis response curve at low power levels. It's very difficult to equate loudspeaker measurements to audible preference and large speakers with multiple drivers, sometimes on multiple cabinet faces are very challenging to properly measure. Click to expand... Thanks Gene. Gene is a blessing to the audio world and a class act to boot. A super nice gentleman. Gene, I know that you are super busy. When you get a chance to answer my e-mail from a couple of weeks ago, that would be much appreciated. Thank you sir.
Irvrobinson Audioholic Spartan Dec 7, 2004 6,754 0 113 Dec 6, 2012 #55 AcuDefTechGuy said: I think it's the setup. They probably tried to be fancy and ran Audyssey or some other RC. Without actually measuring the speaker response at the listening position, there is no guarantee that the rooms were excellent. Click to expand... Incorrect on both counts. I have never allowed dealers to use AVRs or processors for my listening tests. In the case of the KEFs it was Ayre stereo components in one case and an NAD pre-amp and amp in the second case, if memory serves. For my B&W listening sessions it has always been Classe and McIntosh separates. Obviously the Orion was with the ATI amp, driven by a Krell pre-amp. The Salon 2 listening sessions were with Levinson equipment every time, but that's only because Revel dealers tend to be Levinson dealers too (just like nowadays B&W dealers tend to be Classe dealers). I judge a "good" dealer listening room by its size, it needs to be at least 15x20 with ceilings at least 10' high, and the setup, the speakers being tested must only ones in the room, and they need to be at least three feet from the back and side walls, and the listening seat at least four feet from the back wall. Also, I've been using the same recordings to judge speakers for many years and I know what they sound like. Last edited: Dec 6, 2012 Reactions: addictaudio and monkish54
AcuDefTechGuy said: I think it's the setup. They probably tried to be fancy and ran Audyssey or some other RC. Without actually measuring the speaker response at the listening position, there is no guarantee that the rooms were excellent. Click to expand... Incorrect on both counts. I have never allowed dealers to use AVRs or processors for my listening tests. In the case of the KEFs it was Ayre stereo components in one case and an NAD pre-amp and amp in the second case, if memory serves. For my B&W listening sessions it has always been Classe and McIntosh separates. Obviously the Orion was with the ATI amp, driven by a Krell pre-amp. The Salon 2 listening sessions were with Levinson equipment every time, but that's only because Revel dealers tend to be Levinson dealers too (just like nowadays B&W dealers tend to be Classe dealers). I judge a "good" dealer listening room by its size, it needs to be at least 15x20 with ceilings at least 10' high, and the setup, the speakers being tested must only ones in the room, and they need to be at least three feet from the back and side walls, and the listening seat at least four feet from the back wall. Also, I've been using the same recordings to judge speakers for many years and I know what they sound like.
Irvrobinson Audioholic Spartan Dec 7, 2004 6,754 0 113 Dec 6, 2012 #56 ridikas said: Gentlemen, both brands measure terrible across the product lines. With so many awesome options, why waste time and money on subpar products? Click to expand... You don't know that. You haven't seen the latest Legacy measurements.
ridikas said: Gentlemen, both brands measure terrible across the product lines. With so many awesome options, why waste time and money on subpar products? Click to expand... You don't know that. You haven't seen the latest Legacy measurements.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Dec 6, 2012 #57 zieglj01 said: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/857862-post1.html Click to expand... OMG. Epos Epic2: +4dB @ 2.5kHz, +4dB @7, 8kHz, +5dB @10kHz. Yeah, those are awesome measurements alright..............Not. Reactions: monkish54 and zieglj01
zieglj01 said: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/857862-post1.html Click to expand... OMG. Epos Epic2: +4dB @ 2.5kHz, +4dB @7, 8kHz, +5dB @10kHz. Yeah, those are awesome measurements alright..............Not.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Dec 6, 2012 #58 addictaudio said: PSS: Audioholics will soon be testing the Legacy Focus SE with the new dual AMT. Legacy is building Audioholics a set to test. In fact, Gene conducted an interview with Bill from Legacy recently. Click to expand... Sweet. Well, I would wait for the AH review of the Legacy first before buying anything! I do believe that speakers can sound great without having all the great measurements. Some of us just prefer to have the best of both words - speakers that measure great AND sound great.
addictaudio said: PSS: Audioholics will soon be testing the Legacy Focus SE with the new dual AMT. Legacy is building Audioholics a set to test. In fact, Gene conducted an interview with Bill from Legacy recently. Click to expand... Sweet. Well, I would wait for the AH review of the Legacy first before buying anything! I do believe that speakers can sound great without having all the great measurements. Some of us just prefer to have the best of both words - speakers that measure great AND sound great.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Dec 6, 2012 #59 addictaudio said: PS: I do not have an obsession with measurements. In fact, this is all new to me. AcuDefTechGuy pointed me out to this new realm of measurements. You can blame him. Click to expand... You cannot be an Audioholic and own high end speakers without knowing about speaker measurements. Gotta be well-rounded. Reactions: monkish54
addictaudio said: PS: I do not have an obsession with measurements. In fact, this is all new to me. AcuDefTechGuy pointed me out to this new realm of measurements. You can blame him. Click to expand... You cannot be an Audioholic and own high end speakers without knowing about speaker measurements. Gotta be well-rounded.
AcuDefTechGuy Audioholic Jedi Jul 10, 2007 34,057 0 113 Dec 6, 2012 #60 ridikas said: Gentlemen, both brands measure terrible across the product lines. With so many awesome options, why waste time and money on subpar products? Click to expand... ridikas said: These are them! I didn't buy them, but best sounding (not measuring) speakers in their class Click to expand... So you basically love 2 speakers - Epos and Goldmund - that probably have mediocre measurements. Then wouldn't you say that measurements aren't everything? Just come clean and admit it. Reactions: cpp and monkish54
ridikas said: Gentlemen, both brands measure terrible across the product lines. With so many awesome options, why waste time and money on subpar products? Click to expand... ridikas said: These are them! I didn't buy them, but best sounding (not measuring) speakers in their class Click to expand... So you basically love 2 speakers - Epos and Goldmund - that probably have mediocre measurements. Then wouldn't you say that measurements aren't everything? Just come clean and admit it.
