HELP: Legacy OR Monitor Audio 5.1 set-up? Huge $ decison that I do not want to regret

[addictaudio]

I agree with everything you said in the original post. However, if I may read between the lines here, you don't mean measurements are not enough, but that we don't do enough measurements!

On-axis, off-axis (imaging + soundstage), klippel diaphragm testing (detail), non linear distortion, etc. If we measured more things, we can learn more things!

Also, every loudspeaker company should post pictures, and detailed analysis of their drivers. If you're not proud enough to show them, I probably don't want them!

SVS understands where it's at!

Yup, very FEW manufacturers post detailed pictures of their drivers and crossover networks, CAD designs, how they obtain their measurements, etc...

 

[addictaudio]

Me either. Their chief designer makes no bones about the fact that he tunes in-room by ear, which in my experience almost always produces that classic saddle-shaped response curve with accentuated highs and lows. Frankly, that's how B&Ws sound to me too. Speakers like this do demo well, because they sound a little more exciting than speakers that are flat. However, in my experience a super-flat frequency response is not enough. The Dunlavy speakers measured incredibly well, but while they sounded more neutral than Legacys at the time (10 years ago) the quality of the sound (especially in the highs) left something to be desired. Measurements are important, but focusing just on measurements has not been enough for me.

So this here shows that there is no best of all worlds, correct? Arent' the B&W Diamond's rated one of the best out there and highly regarded? So what does it mean when a speaker has poor measurements, but sounds great, and one that has a flat frequency response with good measurements, but sounds poor?

 

[addictaudio]

How should a speaker be tuned/calibrated, if not by ear? Isn't that the best testament to sound and tonal quality in the end?

 

[unemployed]

@addictaudio - if you don't mind going a version back, Saturday Audio in Illinois sells the discontinued and trade show demo Monitor Audio speakers. Bought my GRs when the GS series was the current series. Pricing is reasonable, but you have to check what he has. He wil ship them as well.

 

[addictaudio]

@addictaudio - if you don't mind going a version back, Saturday Audio in Illinois sells the discontinued and trade show demo Monitor Audio speakers. Bought my GRs when the GS series was the current series. Pricing is reasonable, but you have to check what he has. He wil ship them as well.

Thank you sir, but I will only go for the new GX, due to the amazing sounding ribbons and balance of the speakers. I believe that the old GS sounds closer to the new Silver RX, which I did not like all that much. I also auditioned the Silver RX's at the same time as the Gold GX's, and the RX's sound muffled in comparison, as if someone was holding their hands to the tweeter. The GX were so much more transparent and had a much wider immersed sound stage. I auditoned them with Andrew Bocelli and Phil Collins Blue Ray. They did not have a new GX center, and used an old Gold GS center with the new GX 300 towers, and it was a total sonic mismatch. One could definitely tell the difference. In my opinion, the new GX's are much superior to the GS that they replace, no offense.

 

[unemployed]

No offense taken. Good luck with the search - that's half the fun!

 

[addictaudio]

No offense taken. Good luck with the search - that's half the fun!

Absolutely. I must admit that the highs in that center GS were better than the new Silver RX, but not nearly as good as the new GX with the ribbons. My only issue, is that there is nowhere near my location to audition. Any time that something new pops in to audition, I need to take a 400 -500 mile round trip, and those can get costly and very time consuming

 

[addictaudio]

What I am still trying to understand, is besides the fact that two specific Legacy models (one dating back to 2004) do not measure favorably in the frequency response arena, what else is not to like about them? All of the reviews that I have read appear favorable. HTM just awarded the Signature SE speaker of the year. Are the negative views/opinions based on hearsay, or for those that dislike them, have you all auditioned them and come to that conclusion? They offer a great warranty and the customer service is first rate.

 

[monkish54]

Why all the fuss about measurements?

I can do 2 things with measurement as far as speakers are concerned.

1. I can see the overall balance of a speaker. A speaker with a frequency response of +/- 5db is going to be less accurate then a speaker that is +/- 1db. That speaker will color the sound. Maybe you'll like that sound, sure, but it is distortion and should be treated as such. IMO the only valid design goal in loudspeaker design is neutrality. I don't want a speaker that has it's own tonal quality, that's what I have music for!

2. I can determine how well a speaker will do something. For instance, based upon polar response I can tell you if a speaker will image well or not. Image comes from reflections. If the speaker is throwing frequencies all over the place, it most likely will image poorly! Measurements tell me exactly what's happening.

Arent' the B&W Diamond's rated one of the best out there and highly regarded? So what does it mean when a speaker has poor measurements, but sounds great, and one that has a flat frequency response with good measurements, but sounds poor?

B&W makes horrible loudspeakers IMO. (Some really great drive units though.)
The 800 has terrible directivity, lackluster frequency response, they let a 6" midrange play through cone breakup. Bleh.

It shows you like the speaker's colorations.

It shows you want a colored speaker, not a neutral one.

How should a speaker be tuned/calibrated, if not by ear? Isn't that the best testament to sound and tonal quality in the end?

Be measurement. It's like baking a cake in the dark. Why not turn on the light? Why not find out exactly what's happening and alter the recipe accordingly?

We have a great deal of perceptual research now. Any company that ignores science gets ignored by me. I'm not saying there is only one way to make a fine loudspeaker, but there are FAR more ways to **** one up than there are to create a good one.

What I am still trying to understand, is besides the fact that two specific Legacy models (one dating back to 2004) do not measure favorably in the frequency response arena, what else is not to like about them?

That is enough for most of us. on-axis FR (read listening window) is the most important thing! It completely determines the tonality of the speaker. Try listening to a speaker with a good amount of cone breakup, and you will understand why FR is important. Also FR allows us to determine if the speaker is neutral or colored.

All of the reviews that I have read appear favorable. HTM just awarded the Signature SE speaker of the year. Are the negative views/opinions based on hearsay, or for those that dislike them, have you all auditioned them and come to that conclusion? They offer a great warranty and the customer service is first rate.

Pro reviews (aside from audioholics) are pretty biased. Everything is a great product...

TBHWY, I don't need to listen to them. For one they are far from neutral. Secondly, it has been know for quite some time flat FR is the way to go. Both for neutrality sake, and listenability.

 

[Irvrobinson]

What I am still trying to understand, is besides the fact that two specific Legacy models (one dating back to 2004) do not measure favorably in the frequency response arena, what else is not to like about them? All of the reviews that I have read appear favorable. HTM just awarded the Signature SE speaker of the year. Are the negative views/opinions based on hearsay, or for those that dislike them, have you all auditioned them and come to that conclusion? They offer a great warranty and the customer service is first rate.

Hearsay. Also, you'll hear contrasting opinions on speakers. Monkish54 says he dislikes B&W, but ADTG, who actually owns 802Ds, likes them and favorably compares them to forum favorites, like the Salon 2 and the Philharmonic 3. I would listen for yourself and make a personal decision. The Legacies do offer a lot of value. Note that in that Stereophile review of the Focus 20/20 the reviewer genuinely liked what he heard. In the end everything posted here is just talk. You're buying, not the forum.

 

[monkish54]

You're buying, not the forum.

Don't fill his head with this lie!

 

[Irvrobinson]

So this here shows that there is no best of all worlds, correct? Arent' the B&W Diamond's rated one of the best out there and highly regarded? So what does it mean when a speaker has poor measurements, but sounds great, and one that has a flat frequency response with good measurements, but sounds poor?

How should a speaker be tuned/calibrated, if not by ear? Isn't that the best testament to sound and tonal quality in the end?

When a speaker measures poorly but sounds great - to an individual, it could mean a lot of things. That the individual likes the coloration, that the measurements aren't accurately representing what happens in a room, or perhaps the measurements taken aren't the most important ones. You can find designers who think that room tuning is anathema and measurements are everything, like Yoav Geva of YG, and others that think speakers need to be voiced by ear, like Bill Dudleston of Legacy, or Tyler Acoustics, or Wilson Audio. All of these speakers have staunch supporters and detractors. In the end there isn't a perfect indicator. You'll have to listen and make a decision that some here may tell you was the wrong one.

 

[monkish54]

You'll have to listen and make a decision that some here may tell you was the wrong one.

It would only be a wrong choice if the OP doesn't like it. If he got what he wanted, I'm happy..even if it wasn't what I would have picked. : D It's his money not mine.

That said, if he asked what I would recommend, Legacy, Wilson, B&W, and Tyler would not be on that list!

KEF, TAD, Revel, JBL Pro, Philharmonic Audio, Ascend, Vapor Audio, Gedlee, Soundfield Audio would be on that list.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Don't fill his head with this lie!

That's right. We're spending his money!

Audition is a must for AddictAudio.

Personally, if I only had 2 options between Legacy vs Monitor Audio (MA), I would take MA just based on Frequency Response.

Even my B&W 802D2 has a listening window (5-point average of on-axis & +/-15 degrees horizontal & vertical off axis between 200Hz-10kHz) of +/-2.8dB, which I don't think is anywhere as bad as the Legacy.

My criteria for buying speakers is that they have to measure within the +/-3dB tolerance and sound great.

According to Funk, the new Funk 8.2P speaker is also within the -3dB tolerance and won't be +/-1.5dB Flat.

But I draw the line at the 3dB tolerance. I think beyond this tolerance could mean potentially a little bit too much coloration.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It would only be a wrong choice if the OP doesn't like it. If he got what he wanted, I'm happy..even if it wasn't what I would have picked. : D It's his money not mine.

That said, if he asked what I would recommend, Legacy, Wilson, B&W, and Tyler would not be on that list!

KEF, TAD, Revel, JBL Pro, Philharmonic Audio, Ascend, Vapor Audio, Gedlee, Soundfield Audio would be on that list.

Now you realize from the list that only KEF, TAD, Revel, & JBL have been measured by 3rd parties like Stereophile and NRC?

How do we know with 100% certainly that if those other speakers were measured by Stereophile and NRC that they would come out +/-2dB?

What if they came out measuring +/-3.0dB, which is worst than my 802D2, which is +/-2.8dB?

BTW, why isn't Linkwitz on your list?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hearsay. Also, you'll hear contrasting opinions on speakers. Monkish54 says he dislikes B&W, but ADTG, who actually owns 802Ds, likes them and favorably compares them to forum favorites, like the Salon 2 and the Philharmonic 3. I would listen for yourself and make a personal decision. The Legacies do offer a lot of value. Note that in that Stereophile review of the Focus 20/20 the reviewer genuinely liked what he heard. In the end everything posted here is just talk. You're buying, not the forum.

To keep scores:

GranteedEV, AJinFL, Monkish54, seem to not like B&W 800s Diamond very much.

ADTG, PENG, Irvrobinson, TLS Guy, seem to like the 800s Diamond more.

The 802D2 is +/-2.8dB listening window. If their 45 degrees off-axis were as smooth as even the cheap Infinity P363, GranteedEV, AJinFL, & Monkish54 might have liked the 802D2 more.

I'm thinking B&W did make them flat and smooth off-axis at first. They have the money and equipment and engineers to do that. But when they listened to the speakers, they made changes based on their listening sessions. This caused the off-axis to be not as smooth and on-axis to be not as flat as +/-2.0dB, but still +/-2.8dB.

Anyway, the Legacy's off-axis is not smooth either and on-axis is kind of bad like +/-6dB. So most of us cannot recommend Legacy based on that. But as Irvrobinson says, you gotta like the sound in the end.

And Monkish says, AddictAudio could buy speakers that not only measure great, but also sound great.

We can cross out Legacy for the poor FR measurement. But what about the Monitor Audio GX? Are their FR good enough?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Even my B&W 802D2 has a listening window (5-point average of on-axis & +/-15 degrees horizontal & vertical off axis between 200Hz-10kHz) of +/-2.8dB, which I don't think is anywhere as bad as the Legacy.

There aren't any recent Legacy measurements available, so we really don't know how they measure. The new Classics, Signatures, and Foci have different drivers, crossovers, and cabinets. Even the new Whisper has new drivers and crossovers. Judging them by old measurements of different models is probably not a good idea.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There aren't any recent Legacy measurements available, so we really don't know how they measure. The new Classics, Signatures, and Foci have different drivers, crossovers, and cabinets. Even the new Whisper has new drivers and crossovers. Judging them by old measurements of different models is probably not a good idea.

True. But if the OP is buying speakers now and needs to base his decision on measurements, how long will it be until Stereophile or NRC, etc, measures the new Legacy?

We make decisions the best we can based on the information available now.

 

[Irvrobinson]

True. But if the OP is buying speakers now and needs to base his decision on measurements, how long will it be until Stereophile or NRC, etc, measures the new Legacy?

We make decisions the best we can based on the information available now.

You purchased the Phil 3s without independent measurements or even hearing them...

If the OP is as obsessed with measurements as you are (which is not clear), one alternative would be to ask Legacy for the data. They have it. They may not release it, but they have it.

 

[monkish54]

You purchased the Phil 3s without independent measurements

That's different.

2 reasons.

1. Dennis is a very well known man in DIY circles and now because of Salk and Philharmonic he is known by most who browse the forums. He has been very very generous with the DIY community, myself included. We know that Dennis wouldn't fudge measurements, use 10db scales, write a snake oily sales pitch etc.

2. Dennis was making almost nothing on the speakers at the time. He requested I pay by check as PayPal fee would wipe out his "profit margins". He's not fudging for 3% of a few grand.

We didn't need 3rd party measurements because the 1st party has integrity.