Heights or in-ceiling speakers for Atmos?

[Sawtaytoes]

Atmos or DTS:X or IMAX Enhanced, where should I be putting my height channels?

Currently, they're speaker-mounted (bouncy-house), but I plan to mount them up high, just not in the ceiling. Ever since hearing that the Audioholics folks (Gene, etc) have them in the ceiling, I've been having doubts.

I read a Sound & Vision article on Dolby Pro Logic IIz (which has heights), and he said: "I'd describe the sound as taller, not higher". Not sure if it's a Dolby Pro Logic IIz issue, but I want height sounds to sound like they're coming from above my head, not that I have taller front and rear speakers.

Is it gonna be an issue mounting them up high on my 9' walls rather than above my head?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Lmfao!!!!! Pliiz is so far and away from Atmos…

 

[Sawtaytoes]

I understand Dolby Pro Logic IIz is very different from Atmos considering it's a 4 or 5.1 system and the rest is matrixed.

But I don't have any good info on heights versus in-ceiling.

From what I watched people say, they thought heights were better, but some of those came from people talking about Auro3D.

I'm really wondering if there's a difference between hearing a speaker above your head versus virtualizing a phantom center top by having four on-wall speakers.

 

[TLS Guy]

I understand Dolby Pro Logic IIz is very different from Atmos considering it's a 4 or 5.1 system and the rest is matrixed.

But I don't have any good info on heights versus in-ceiling.

From what I watched people say, they thought heights were better, but some of those came from people talking about Auro3D.

I'm really wondering if there's a difference between hearing a speaker above your head versus virtualizing a phantom center top by having four on-wall speakers.

I have a strong feeling you have no clue what Atmos technology is, and how to properly implement it.

To your last question ceiling speakers are the way to go.

 

[Eppie]

I understand Dolby Pro Logic IIz is very different from Atmos considering it's a 4 or 5.1 system and the rest is matrixed.

But I don't have any good info on heights versus in-ceiling.

From what I watched people say, they thought heights were better, but some of those came from people talking about Auro3D.

I'm really wondering if there's a difference between hearing a speaker above your head versus virtualizing a phantom center top by having four on-wall speakers.

You can look up the Dolby ATMOS specs on-line. There are specific angles that they recommend to implement it properly. Another easy way to check this is to look through most any AVR user manual for surround receivers. Download the Denon X3800H manual and look at the speaker placement section and height speaker layout. In ceiling is preferrerd for ATMOS. For front heights, they recommend them placed as high on the wall as possible and in-line with the font L+R. As you have asked about PC setups previously, having height or top speakers only makes sense with an AVR. You need a programmable receiver with a setup menu where you can tell it where the speakers are located so that it can decode the signal properly.

 

[Wardog555]

It comes down to room dimensions and where you sit on whether the atmos speakers are on the walls or ceiling.
Smallest of rooms you might be able to get away with wall mounting at the ceiling junction. Larger rooms 9 times out of ten on the ceiling.

Good luck!

 

[Sawtaytoes]

@Eppie This is for my main home theater which has a Marantz AV 10. I already have the four heights set up as bouncy-house.

The room is 12'x11', and my head is 3.0'-3.5' from the back wall depending on if I'm leaning back. The room is 9' in height, and I plan the mount the speakers 8.5' off the ground.

The mounts I got have a ball joint and can be angled however I like. The speakers I'm mounting are the Polk Reserve R900s.

From what you showed, my setup isn't gonna be ideal because my rear surrounds are supposed to be further back, and the front heights are supposed to be closer; in front of the TV.

I can still add a 3rd or even a 4th set of heights in the ceiling itself if wall-mounting is really gonna be sub-par for this room.

 

[TLS Guy]

@Eppie This is for my main home theater which has a Marantz AV 10. I already have the four heights set up as bouncy-house.

The room is 12'x11', and my head is 3.0'-3.5' from the back wall depending on if I'm leaning back. The room is 9' in height, and I plan the mount the speakers 8.5' off the ground.

The mounts I got have a ball joint and can be angled however I like. The speakers I'm mounting are the Polk Reserve R900s.

I can still add a 3rd or even a 4th set of heights in the ceiling itself if wall-mounting is really gonna be sub-par for this room.

Unless you room is very large, then four ceiling speakers placed to Dolby Specs is optimal. Forget bouncy speakers.

 

[Sawtaytoes]

Unless you room is very large, then four ceiling speakers placed to Dolby Specs is optimal. Forget bouncy speakers.

You said something opposite of someone else. You're saying small rooms should be ceiling-mounted and large rooms can get away with not doing that?

Another idea is to ceiling mount these speakers. I was thinking I had to run the wires in the ceiling, but I could also run them outside.

How do you measure angles? Is there a special tool to do it? I have a laser "tape measure", but it doesn't do angles.

 

[TLS Guy]

You said something opposite of someone else. You're saying small rooms should be ceiling-mounted and large rooms can get away with not doing that?

Another idea is to ceiling mount these speakers. I was thinking I had to run the wires in the ceiling, but I could also run them outside.

How do you measure angles? Is there a special tool to do it? I have a laser "tape measure", but it doesn't do angles.

No, I'm NOT saying that. I'm saying that most rooms should have four ceiling speakers, but if you have a very large room you should have six. I have a pretty large room, but four ceiling speakers are fine.

 

[Sawtaytoes]

Dolby Atmos doesn't have a spec for 2 sets of height channels. They prefer in-ceiling, bouncy-house, or a mix of both for x.x.4 speakers.

But there are specs for x.x.6 where 4 are heights and 2 are tops:

And the only x.x.8 channel mode listed has 2 sets of heights and 2 sets of tops:

At this point, I'll mount my speakers high and let there be a phantom top. It's possible, just not ideal, but still better than bouncy-house. Gotta make things work for the room you've got.

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But... I just bought another set of the same height speakers which I'll try to mount on the ceiling.

In my room, the biggest issue is getting wires through there. I have 4 can lights near where I'd want my speakers. I could use those holes to fish stuff through, but my dad (who helps me with this stuff) isn't keen on touching anything in the ceiling right now.

I can always mount them on the ceiling and run visible wires, but my wife will probably complain. The only other way to get top-mounted speakers is going through the 2nd floor floorboard which requires pulling up the carpet and running wires through those joists.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Side height positions can work very well.

 

[Sawtaytoes]

Side height positions can work very well.

Sadly, one of my sides is completely open to the kitchen, so that's not really possible.

 

[Eppie]

The AV10 manual has illustrations for various recommended setups and I would use that as a main reference. Have you read through the Connections sections including amp assignment? Also pay attention to Manual Setup section starting on page 220 including the various layout tables. That should give an idea of what the AVR supports. The angels from the main seating area have a 20 degree variance so I wouldn't beat myself over being off a bit. The front heights being spaced a little far apart, for example, won't break the illusion. Having the rears close is common as many with smaller rooms have the couch on the back wall. As you mentioned, you have to work within he confines of the room and make compromises, unless you have the luxury of a new build where speaker placement is part of the construction design. I think most here will recommend discrete height speakers over any 'bouncy house' speaker.

Getting wires run in a finished space is always a chore but it's a long term gain after some short term pain. Depends on your drywall plaster and painting skills. There are plenty of YouTube videos on how to run wires. You may need to follow a ceiling joist to the closest wall and once you get it down to the floor you can have runs behind baseboard. Patching drywall is not that difficult but getting the paint to blend in on a patched area can be an art. Most want avoid repainting an entire wall or ceiling but sometimes that's the best option.

 

[Sawtaytoes]

I haven't read the manual for this pre-pro, and I'm not sure why. That was a great idea!

This will be relevant:
When using "Auto", you can enable the Dolby Surround and DTS Neural:X upmixers when playing their associated content (Dolby Surround for 7-channel and Atmos, Neural:X for DTS, DTS:X, and IMAX). That's the default.

I noticed Surround, Back, and Center height aren't used with Atmos nor the Dolby Surround upmixer. Interesting! I was actually questioning if I should setup those channels.

Right now, I'm wondering if I should do 6 tops and 2 heights or 4 tops and 4 heights. Both are supported, but I don't know which is better. Dolby's specs online point to 4 tops and 4 heights, but I wonder because 6 tops is typically what you want.

The manual doesn't specify 8 Atmos speakers, but the menu on the AV 10 has it as an option.

---

I wanna run wires through the ceiling really bad, but my dad is very against it. There are too many unknowns for him, and I don't feel comfortable doing that stuff without his help. I don't wanna patch any drywall either especially with the design on the ceiling.

Right now, we're planning to mount flat white plastic conduit on the ceiling. I don't like it though; I'd really like to hide the wires.

 

[Trebdp83]

Input signals and corresponding output channel audio are dependent on a combination of the sound mode and speaker configuration assignments. The missing channel output in the chart when considering Atmos processing and speaker configuration are those that correspond to Auro 3-D processing and speaker configuration. Pay it no mind when considering Front and Rear Height Speakers(on wall) for Dolby Atmos vs in ceiling speakers(Top) for Dolby Atmos.

 

[Trebdp83]

Now, if you want to go nuts with it and incorporate an Auro 3-D 13.1 configuration as well as a 15.1 Dolby Atmos configuration, it can be done and you can connect 17 speakers all around but it will compromise both speaker configurations just a bit to accommodate both means of processing.

If Auro 3-D is no concern at all and in ceiling speakers are a must, then you could go 9.1.6 with in ceiling(Top) speakers. Dolby Atmos processing here supports the use of Front Wide channels for 9.1.6. Or, if things go south with on wall or in ceiling mounting, six bouncers are also supported here.

 

[Sawtaytoes]

@Trebdp83, I don't have room for front wides sadly. Well... I do have room and the speakers, but my wife said "no" because they'd be in the walkway.

Major update
I assumed, since the AV 10 supported 8 heights, it supported 8 channels of Atmos heights. This is false. 2 of those were meant for Auro3D center-top and center-height.

I have enough speakers to make it happen, but only some Auro3D demo discs. I have IMAX Enhanced content too (which uses a center-height), but having two front heights could do the trick with a phantom center image.

The AV 10 supports only 6 channels of Atmos heights. Either 6 tops, or 2 tops and 4 heights. I still have to make a decision about which configuration I want. I wanna know how media plays differently between the two configurations since I can choose the best one for me.

 

[Trebdp83]

It’s hardly ideal, but six bouncers are supported for Dolby Atmos, Auro 3-D as well as DTS:X and IMAX DTS:X processing here. But, six Top speakers for Dolby Atmos don’t work for Auro 3-D and if mixing both configurations, Heights will be mixed with Tops if not resorting to six bouncers to compromise everything.

If you have the seventeen speakers needed to accommodate both configurations, by all means mount those babies up. The Marantz will switch between the configurations as needed when making changes from one format to the next.

 

[Sawtaytoes]

I have 4 bouncers right now, and I already bought 4 more speakers; so I could get 2 more bouncers and be done with it, but my dad's gonna help me mount everything up high. I've been to a few home theaters in town where they're top-mounted, and it's night-and-day with my bouncy-house speakers.

I know people don't like Techno Dad here, but I think he made a good point about heights getting better imaging than tops because they're further apart and can fill the gaps easier than top that sit closer to you than your front and rear speakers.

I've made a decision now. I'm going with 5 heights and 3 tops not because of Auro, but because of DTS:X (since it can use whatever):

I'll never have front wides in this room as they're in the way of getting to the couch, so I can go with 8 heights instead.

When I was at someone's home theater with a Storm, he had the "voice of god" speaker as well as center heights, front heights, and rear heights, and 6 tops. The center-top speaker actually played a role in my immersion, and I know DTS:X content can use it even if Atmos can't.

I want a center-height because IMAX uses it. While I only have a few videos with IMAX Enhanced and a few Auro3D demos, Neural:X can fill the gap, and I already have the extra speaker since they come in pairs.

In terms of wiring, I'm already running a wire past that position, so it's not going to change anything in my room. Same with the center-top. There will already be a wire going across the top from the left to the right speaker, so I can put a t-fitting and add a center drop no-problem.

With this 15-channel configuration, I don't have to choose between Auro3D-style and front wides since I won't have front wides.