hdmi switching vs. pass through

[JK_Livin22]

Ok, what's the purpose of purchasing the Denon DVD player? It will not be able to outperform the PS3 in terms of upscaling. You would be buying it for the DVD-Audio/SACD playback only?

Yeah pretty much. This system is actually for my parents. I purchased a refurbished Marantz SR4001 for them as a Christmas gift, the first of many incremental purchases in helping set them up with a decent system for movies and especially music. What I am looking for in a player is one that will do a good job upconverting standard DVDs (the Denon has a pretty nice Faroudja chipset) and one that really does a good job with audio since this will also serve not only as an SACD and DVD Audio player, but as their only CD player for standard compact discs as well (the main reason I chose Denon instead of OPPO, is that audio is Denon's primary focus). I am trying to keep both the amount of equipment and costs down and 1930CI, as you might imagine, is a bit cheaper than the newer 1940CI. The Denon 1940CI got really good reviews, but even though the video was slightly better than the 1930CI, the audio was said to be better on the 1930CI which is the main reason I chose it over the 1940. My DAD really likes multi-channel audio so I definitely want to get something that will allow him to enjoy some SACDs and DVD Audio discs in addition to being a good player for standard CDs.

p.s. I have heard that the PS3 is the best Blu-ray player out (maybe with the exception of a few expensive models i.e. Pioneer Elite, etc.) and have read that they all will do at least as good if not a better job of upconverting than universal players will. But I just can't envision my 60yr. old parents using a PS3 game controller for operating their AV equipment, Lol!

 

[JK_Livin22]

I am fully aware that your receiver only has HDMI 1.1, but it can process multichannel lossless PCM. You don't need to use the coaxial or toslink SPDIF connection for audio.

Take for example. Dolby TrueHD is packed data, just like Dolby Digital. In order for you do enjoy Dolby Digital TrueHD or Dolby Digital the data must be converted to PCM. After it's converted to PCM it goes through the digital to analog process. The PS3 can decode Dolby TrueHD internally converting it to multichannel PCM (no loss of quality) and can be sent out via HDMI to your receiver. The audio is picked up off HDMI by the receiver and the digital to analog process occurs in the Marantz. This would be the same scenario if you used the Denon dvd player for a DVD, or DVD-Audio. It will not work with SACD, because HDMI 1.1 does not support DSD. Your receiver would have to feature HDMI 1.2 in order to utilize SACD.

Your Denon DVD player can output multichannel DVD-Audio or SACD over HDMI or the 5.1 multichannel analog outputs. Your Marantz receiver has a multichannel input for use with that type of connection. So you can enjoy SACD on your receiver, you just have to use the bass management system in your DVD player instead of the receiver.

PERFECT explanation!! Thank you, thank you! I ALMOST completely understand all of this, lol! I do have one small question though about why I thought I needed a digital cable. The HD cable box is connected to the Marantz via HDMI. Initially it would not transmit the audio so I contacted the dealer and they said that I had to use a digital coax or a digital optical cable in conjunction with the HDMI. I used a digital coax cable and everything works perfectly well now. I am going to guess that while the SR4001 can accept multi-channel PCM data via its HDMI 1.1 port, it can NOT accept whatever encoding the HD cable box is sending to the receiver. Is this right? Any idea what form the audio is from the HD cable box?

 

[JK_Livin22]

It doesn't matter so much where the digital to analog conversion takes place. Things you have to consider however. Which has the better Digital/analog converters, the receiver or the DVD player? Which has better bass management, the receiver or the DVD player? Do you want a simple setup? HDMI will offer less hassle more than likely.

I'm guessing, that like speakers, the best way to determine which performs betters is through listening. However, is information about the DACs in each of these units easily available? And is there someplace to go and get information/reviews of the particular DACs in each unit?

 

[Zetram]

I totally newb'd up this thread w/ my first post. However I've think I've evolved a bit since then.

About the passing of Lossless PCM. I was under the impression that only hdmi 1.3 inputs were able to do this. After all isn't that one of the major break throughs w/ this format?

 

[Seth=L]

I totally newb'd up this thread w/ my first post. However I've think I've evolved a bit since then.

About the passing of Lossless PCM. I was under the impression that only hdmi 1.3 inputs were able to do this. After all isn't that one of the major break throughs w/ this format?

That is not correct, HDMI has been able to process lossless PCM since version 1.1.

JK_Livin22, I haven't researched what dacs the Denon or Marantz uses, but I would guess they are similar if not the same since Marantz and Denon are owned by D&M Holdings, they share technolgy when it's cost effective (using the same dacs in same level gear would be cost effective). The PS3's audio processing is probably software emulated, much like Blu-ray players.

It's possible the satellite box does not support audio over HDMI, though I think it's unlikely. There may be a setting that turns the audio on over HDMI. This certainly isn't a fault of the Marantz.

You could get the PS3's Blu-ray remote. They work like a full featured remote for a Blu-ray player, it uses the same Blue Tooth technology as the six axis controller does, so line of sight operation is not necessary.

 

[TLS Guy]

Wow! Who new.

Is there any improvement or difference then in audio quality between listening to standard CDs in DTS Neo 6: Music mode and to listening to an SACD on a consumer quality (Denon 1930ci) universal/SACD player? Does this also apply to DVD Audio?

From my understanding, DVD upconversion (which the 1930ci has) requires an HDMI connection (I assumed that this was possible with HDMI 1.1, but am not sure of anything at this point) and therefore I would connect this player to my receiver (Marantz SR4001) via one of the HDMI ins in order to up convert standard 480p DVDs to 720p or 1080p video quality. Are you saying that with an audiophile quality SACD player I would also need to connect it to the receiver via another cable (analog?) for the SACD to transmit the proper audio signal in DSD, but that with consumer quality players (i.e. Denon 1930ci) that the SACD encoding in which must be in DSD is converted into PCM before it is ever sent to the receiver, and therefore it is a mute point and doesn't matter what type of cables are used to connect it to the receiver as far as the audio performance?

DVD audio is a PCM format.

Any digital connection is going to convert the DSD to PCM. At the rate of change there may be a preamp or receiver with a DSD decoder out there, but I'm not aware of one. If someone knows there is shout. I know for sure my universal player can only output from the DSD decoder after DSD conversion via the analog ports and it is HDMI 1.2. For anything else there has to be a PCM conversion. So yes, to hear true DSD you need analog cables.

The bottom line is that if your player is outputting SACD in digital , or provides bass and level management, then there has more likely than not been a DSD to PCM conversion.

In terms of up resolution, where possible it is best to let the TV do the up conversion.

As far as listening modes it all depends on your set up, so I can't comment.

 

[Seth=L]

DVD audio is a PCM format.

Any digital connection is going to convert the DSD to PCM. At the rate of change there may be a preamp or receiver with a DSD decoder out there, but I'm not aware of one. If someone knows there is shout. I know for sure my universal player can only output from the DSD decoder after DSD conversion via the analog ports and it is HDMI 1.2. For anything else there has to be a PCM conversion. So yes, to hear true DSD you need analog cables.

The bottom line is that if your player is outputting SACD in digital , or provides bass and level management, then there has more likely than not been a DSD to PCM conversion.

In terms of up resolution, where possible it is best to let the TV do the up conversion.

As far as listening modes it all depends on your set up, so I can't comment.

I am pretty sure Denon AVRs are with the "Denon Link" have the DSD decoders.

A few additions, any receiver with the HDMI 1.2 repeating architecture has DSD decoding on board. The SACD source must also be at least HDMI 1.2 in order to support the feature. The conversion to PCM only takes place is HDMI 1.1 is used. From my understanding, the players that have HDMI 1.2 will do this automatically depending on what it "sees" on the receiving end.

 

[TLS Guy]

I am pretty sure Denon AVRs are with the "Denon Link" have the DSD decoders.

I looked at one receiver with the Denon link, and I could not find that it has a DSD decoder.

If you can find where is says it has, that would be educational for all of us. You have to read it carefully, but everything seems PCM based. The multi channel is up to 96KHz 24 bit which is pretty impressive, but I don't see anything other than PCM conversions.

 

[Seth=L]

I looked at one receiver with the Denon link, and I could not find that it has a DSD decoder.

If you can find where is says it has, that would be educational for all of us. You have to read it carefully, but everything seems PCM based. The multi channel is up to 96KHz 24 bit which is pretty impressive, but I don't see anything other than PCM conversions.

HDMI 1.2

Released August 2005.

Added support for One Bit Audio, used on Super Audio CDs, up to 8 channels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

Refer to the users manual of the Onkyo TX-SR805/875 page 73. The manual clearly states that if used in direct mode it decodes DSD internally. If any other mode is activated it converts DSD to PCM for bass management and EQing.

Not every receiver with HDMI 1.2 repeating can decode DSD as I once though, but there are receivers that can obviously, as well as players that output DSD streams.

Edit: The Denon AVR-3808CI also supports DSD on board decoding. Refer to manual page 42.

 

[TLS Guy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

Refer to the users manual of the Onkyo TX-SR805/875 page 73. The manual clearly states that if used in direct mode it decodes DSD internally. If any other mode is activated it converts DSD to PCM for bass management and EQing.

Not every receiver with HDMI 1.2 repeating can decode DSD as I once though, but there are receivers that can obviously, as well as players that output DSD streams.

Edit: The Denon AVR-3808CI also supports DSD on board decoding. Refer to manual page 42.

Well done Seth! I find it interesting though that the DSD still has to be converted to PCM for bass management. I think you will find that if a player performs any management, it has converted it to PCM. The instructions usually don't disclose this, but the circuits show it. I still remain to be convinced there is a unit out there that will output DSD and perform bass and level management without converting to PCM.

I have to agree with a reviewer in Gramophone magazine, who stated that the whole format is basically hobbled. He stated he had only ever heard one system that had been properly set up. I think if it weren't for obfuscation and hiding the facts this system would be dead. It is a pity, as it can sound fantastic. I think the problem really is that do to a satisfactory job would add a hefty price increase to devices that could decode and provide management functions, without decoding to PCM.

 

[obscbyclouds]

I still remain to be convinced there is a unit out there that will output DSD and perform bass and level management without converting to PCM.

I believe if you have a player that can send DSD over HDMI (i.e. Oppo DV-980HD) and a reciever that has a DSD decoder (i.e. Onkyo TX-SR 805) you can. Onkyo calls it a DSD Decoder/Direct mode. I take this to mean it bypasses the PCM conversion. Someone correct me if I am wrong please. Whether or not this yields any sonic improvement, I don't know. My 981HD (HDMI 1.1) will only send SACD as 88.2 kHz PCM.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have had a good look at the DENON manual. Again if signal processing is done there has to be a PCM conversion.

So if you have a receiver you can only play multi channel Direct in DSD if all your speakers have the same sensitivity and all speakers can play full range. Not very useful for most. In practice this means that may be 0.1% of listeners can play properly balanced multichannel SACD. The rest will be forced to convert to PCM. SACD then looses any advantage over DVD audio.

Now I had a hard time understanding this when I set up my studio. I had to have my high powered electrical engineer son go over it in detail. He is a great expert in signal processing, memory development, electromagnetic simulation and advanced programming. He told me that signal processing in DSD requires huge processing power and can not be done in real time.

I do know that when mixing down a multichannel SACD recording to the two channel CD layer it takes extended processing time.

So if a manufacturer wanted to add level and bass management for DSD without converting to PCM then they would have to add analog management just for the SACD playback. I doubt they would consider this justified.

So if a member wants to hear multichannel SACD without PCM conversion, they have to figure out and build their own analog management, like I did.

 

[Burkan]

So to sum up:

If you have a receiver like the Marantz sr4002 and/or sr5002 wich have HMDI 1.3 switching and 1.1 repeating capabilities and you connect a HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray player and want to make sure you can get Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, dts-HD (for the audio part) and Deep Color, xvYCC (for the video part) you have to know the following:

AUDIO
To get Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, dts-HD, you need:
- HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player wich can decode Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, dts-HD itself. (like the PS3)
- a A/V receiver with HDMI 1.1 (or higher) switching capabilities.

OR

- HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player wich CANTdecode Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, dts-HD itself.
- a A/V receiver with HDMI 1.3 (or higher) repeating capabilities.

VIDEO
To get Deep Color, xvYCC
- a A/V receiver with HDMI 1.3 (or higher) switching capabilities is enough. Repeating not necessary!
- HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player

@ everybody...Correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[Burkan]

Anyone care to answer?

 

[TLS Guy]

Anyone care to answer?

I think you are OK except the last part. If a manufacturer has followed the regs, a switcher or receiver can not output from an HD peripheral device unless it has repeater architecture.

I can tell youmy new Direct TV HD DVR would not output from an HDCP compliant switcher that did not have repeater architecture. An end device such as a display does not have to have repeater archtecture. So I had to get a switcher that did have repeater architecture, and now it works.

So to switch an HD signal with deep blue and true Dolby HD, the regs, which I grant are confusing even to manufacturers, require HDMI 1.3 switching with repeater architecture. Then for the moment you are safe. Heaven knows what the regs will be next week!

 

[the chicken]

Anyone know of a budget receiver that will give me not only video but sound also through HDMI? And how could I tell the difference from the ones that support both sound and video and the ones that don't.

Thanx

 

[PENG]

So to sum up:

OR

- HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player wich CANTdecode Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, dts-HD itself.
- a A/V receiver with HDMI 1.3 (or higher) repeating capabilities.

As far I know HD DVD players can decode Dolby TrueHD, & DD+ while many BD players can decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD. In those cases even a receiver with HDMI1.1 can get you Dolby TrueHD/DTSHD/DD+. You just have to set your player to PCM. If you set it to bitstream you will end up with the regular DD/DTS core tracks.

If a BD player cannot decode any of the HD formats then it most likely cannot bitstream the HD signal neither so even if the receiver has HDMI 1.3a it won't help.

 

[no. 5]

Anyone know of a budget receiver that will give me not only video but sound also through HDMI?

The Sony STRDG720 is I think the cheapest receiver that offers HDMI repeating. The Yamaha RX-V661 or Onkyo TX-SR605 would be the next (better, but more expensive) options.

And how could I tell the difference from the ones that support both sound and video and the ones that don't.

There will be no sound from the ones that don't support audio over HDMI.

But if a receiver does not support audio over HDMI it is usually referred to as 'HDMI pass through' or 'HDMI switching' in the product description or ad copy.

 

[the chicken]

Thanks a lot. I thought I was ignored.

 

[no. 5]

Thanks a lot. I thought I was ignored.

Na, sometimes it takes a little time.