hdmi switching vs. pass through

[JK_Livin22]

Thanks for the corrections. I am indeed a bit new to this stuff.

You admitted you are pretty new to audio, so you won't be surprised to find you are a bit off on a few things.

HDMI 1.3 is a specification for the interface capability. HDMI 1.1 can carry multichannel LPCM, HDMI 1.2 can carry multichannel LPCM as well as DSD streams (sacd), and HDMI 1.3 can carry multichannel LPCM, DSD streams, and the new surround format bitstreams (Dolby Digital Plus, TrueHD, and DTS-HD). HDMI 1.3 can also support deep color on the video side.

The Onkyo TX-SR505 I linked above has HDMI 1.3, but it does not process audio for example. At the same time the TX-SR605, also has HDMI 1.3, can process audio.

Then as described before there is the repeating feature, which allows a receiver to decode information off of the HDMI transmission, but is limited to the HDMI spec it uses (1.1, 1.2, 1.3).

So are you saying that if I connect a universal DVD player with SACD capability, via an HDMI cable to a receiver with HDMI 1.1, that the receiver will not decode and playback the proper multi-channel audio encoding on the SACD disc?!

p.s. what is LPCM?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the corrections. I am indeed a bit new to this stuff.




So are you saying that if I connect a universal DVD player with SACD capability, via an HDMI cable to a receiver with HDMI 1.1, that the receiver will not decode and playback the proper multi-channel audio encoding on the SACD disc?!

p.s. what is LPCM?

Correct. You can not send SACD through HDMI. LPCM is Linear Pulse code modulation and is the foundation of CD and most digital formats. It is decoded with PCM based decoders.

SACD is French concoction, that works well but you have to go to an awful lot of trouble to hear it. I have come to the conclusion that most individulas on these forums think they are hearing it but are not.

SACD requires a DSD decoder which is very different form a PCM decoder.

Now this is the sneaky part. Most, if not all cheaper SACD players have a cheap DSD decoder than then goes for conversion to PCM. This defeats the whole point. Why is this? So level and bass management can be accomplished. You can't process DSD signals easily and not in consumer gear.

Now the surrounds for SACD have to be at the rear of the room, not the sides.

Now the more expensive players like my Marantz, give you the option of outputting SACD from the DSD decoder or the PCM decoder. Now output from the PCM decoder negates the benefits of SACD. If you output from the DSD decoder, you get an analog output from each channel, with no level or bass management..

Now often as in my case, the analog ext inputs are just pass through except for volume. No level or bass management there either.

So in my Rotel preamp based system, the Rotel sends the surround channels to the center backs. I have built a switching system to disconnect the LFE channel and send the output of the low pass crossover to the amp driving the LF driver and the amp that receives the sub and LFE ouput in PCM mode. Since there is no level management, I have had to place a pot to the center channel electronic crossover to level the center channel. The active crossover to the center backs allows me to level them.

Complicated you bet. Can this be accomplished in most set ups? NO! That is the whole problem with SACD, and why the manufacturers cheat and convert DSD to PCM and defeat the whole point. Once you do that, you have in effect a multichannel CD not a multichannel SACD. Most people have no clue that this is what they really are listening to.

 

[JK_Livin22]

Wow! Who new.

Is there any improvement or difference then in audio quality between listening to standard CDs in DTS Neo 6: Music mode and to listening to an SACD on a consumer quality (Denon 1930ci) universal/SACD player? Does this also apply to DVD Audio?

From my understanding, DVD upconversion (which the 1930ci has) requires an HDMI connection (I assumed that this was possible with HDMI 1.1, but am not sure of anything at this point) and therefore I would connect this player to my receiver (Marantz SR4001) via one of the HDMI ins in order to upconvert standard 480p DVDs to 720p or 1080p video quality. Are you saying that with an audiophile quality SACD player I would also need to connect it to the receiver via another cable (analog?) for the SACD to transmit the proper audio signal in DSD, but that with consumer quality players (i.e. Denon 1930ci) that the SACD encoding in which must be in DSD is converted into PCM before it is ever sent to the receiver, and therefore it is a mute point and doesn't matter what type of cables are used to connect it to the receiver as far as the audio performance?

 

[itschris]

This about the best thread I ever read. I've learned more in the past 5 minutes than in the past 3 weeks of paying attention to this stuff. I have to admit I'm still trying to put it all together, every question answered leads to 10 more new questions, but I'm slowly getting it. Thanks to everyone.

 

[Seth=L]

The Marantz SR-4001 can decode Multichannel LPCM (the lossless audio converted from the HD audio formats and DVD-Audio). The PS3 or another Blu-ray player will take the Dolby TrueHD or other HD audio format and decode it converting it to uncompressed PCM. This lossless PCM can be sent to the receiver through the HDMI output of the PS3 or Blu-ray player for the D/A process. You basically get the same SQ as you would if you could send the HD audio bitstream to the receiver, the only thing that changes is where the processes occur.

So your Marantz can utilize the HD audio. It can also decode legacy Dolby Digital and DTS formats over HDMI from a DVD, the toslink or coaxial connection is not necessary.

Also concerning the HDMI compatibilty, you can use a whole mix of HDMI products with others. That doesn't guarranty they will always work or work well, because HDMI still has a lot of quirks. It's not a perfected multimedia interface.

I believe that HDMI 1.2 can also handle DSD streams from an SACD player. I know that HDMI 1.2 is the minimum for using an SACD player with an HDMI device.

 

[Johnd]

Wow! Who new.

I did.

Is there any improvement or difference then in audio quality between listening to standard CDs in DTS Neo 6: Music mode and to listening to an SACD on a consumer quality (Denon 1930ci) universal/SACD player?

Yes.

Does this also apply to DVD Audio?

Yes.

Are you saying that with an audiophile quality SACD player I would also need to connect it to the receiver via another cable (analog?) for the SACD to transmit the proper audio signal in DSD, but that with consumer quality players (i.e. Denon 1930ci) that the SACD encoding in which must be in DSD is converted into PCM before it is ever sent to the receiver, and therefore it is a mute point and doesn't matter what type of cables are used to connect it to the receiver as far as the audio performance?

The 4001 has only hdmi 1.1, so it will not pass sacd. You must connect six analog cables from player to receiver to achieve sacd playback with the 4001.

 

[Seth=L]

The 4001 has only hdmi 1.1, so it will not pass sacd. You must connect six analog cables from player to receiver to achieve sacd playback with the 4001.

That won't work with the PS3, which may be his SACD player.

 

[Johnd]

That won't work with the PS3, which may be his SACD player.

Oh. I only saw the 1930 Seth.

Hmm. So he has a 1.1 receiver, and a player that passes mutichannel music only through hdmi? I didn't catch that. It pays to do your research.

 

[Seth=L]

Oh. I only saw the 1930 Seth.

Hmm. So he has a 1.1 receiver, and a player that passes mutichannel music only through hdmi? I didn't catch that. It pays to do your research.

Oh, I wasn't thinking about the Denon. Sorry.

 

[Johnd]

Oh, I wasn't thinking about the Denon. Sorry.

No need to apologize to me.

 

[Seth=L]

No need to apologize to me.

I think we are both confused, or maybe it's just me.

 

[Johnd]

I think we are both confused, or maybe it's just me.

I never said I was quite right Seth. I think that's why some get so discombobulated with me.

But I'm not confused on my answers to the op's questions...per the paraphrase. The 1930 has to be connected via six analog to the 4001 for sacd playback. PS3? Not a clue. Cheers.

 

[JK_Livin22]

I guess before I delve any further into this, I should make sure I understand where the digital to analog conversions are taking place.

With a universal DVD/SACD/DVD audio player, when playing a regular DVD, a digital signal is sent via HDMI to the receiver where it is converted to analog before being sent to the speakers (I assume that the video portion of this signal remains in digital form as it is transmitted via HDigitalMI to the TV or video projector). However, when playing an SACD or DVD Audio disc, the signal is converted from digital to analog in the universal DVD/SACD/DVD audio player before being sent to the receiver and therefore must be transmitted via, six analog cables (one for each channel) to the receiver. It seems to be suggested that you get a better audio signal output to the speakers because the receiver does not have to convert the signal from digital to analog because the player did the conversion prior to sending the signal. Regardless of where it takes place, the signal from the SACD or DVD Audio is apparently a digital signal (hence the name DIGITAL Video Disc) and will have to be converted to analog in either the player of the receiver, so why does it matter where the conversion takes place?

I am almost certain I don't understand this correctly, so I would be grateful to any of you guys that are willing to try and straighten me out, .

 

[Johnd]

I guess before I delve any further into this, I should make sure I understand where the digital to analog conversions are taking place.

With a universal DVD/SACD/DVD audio player, when playing a regular DVD, a digital signal is sent via HDMI to the receiver where it is converted to analog before being sent to the speakers (I assume that the video portion of this signal remains in digital form as it is transmitted via HDigitalMI to the TV or video projector). However, when playing an SACD or DVD Audio disc, the signal is converted from digital to analog in the universal DVD/SACD/DVD audio player before being sent to the receiver and therefore must be transmitted via, six analog cables (one for each channel) to the receiver. It seems to be suggested that you get a better audio signal output to the speakers because the receiver does not have to convert the signal from digital to analog because the player did the conversion prior to sending the signal. Regardless of where it takes place, the signal from the SACD or DVD Audio is apparently a digital signal (hence the name DIGITAL Video Disc) and will have to be converted to analog in either the player of the receiver, so why does it matter where the conversion takes place?

I am almost certain I don't understand this correctly, so I would be grateful to any of you guys that are willing to try and straighten me out, .

You're kidding, right? Read my previous post (# 26). Cheers.

 

[JK_Livin22]

The Marantz SR-4001 can decode Multichannel LPCM (the lossless audio converted from the HD audio formats and DVD-Audio). The PS3 or another Blu-ray player will take the Dolby TrueHD or other HD audio format and decode it converting it to uncompressed PCM. This lossless PCM can be sent to the receiver through the HDMI output of the PS3 or Blu-ray player for the D/A process. You basically get the same SQ as you would if you could send the HD audio bitstream to the receiver, the only thing that changes is where the processes occur.

So going back to what TLS guy said, the universal players nor the Blu-ray players will send the SACD signal in DSD, the method in which is intended, but that both will send the signal albeit somewhat compromised in uncompressed PCM with the Blu-ray players, and with a slightly lower quality in lossless compressed audio form in the universal players. I bet I've got that wrong too ehh? Lol!

So your Marantz can utilize the HD audio. It can also decode legacy Dolby Digital and DTS formats over HDMI from a DVD, the toslink or coaxial connection is not necessary.

The Marantz SR4001 only has HDMI 1.1 so I am pretty sure that I do have to have a digital coax or toslink cable to carry the audio.

I believe that HDMI 1.2 can also handle DSD streams from an SACD player. I know that HDMI 1.2 is the minimum for using an SACD player with an HDMI device.

Well I guess that wrecks my whole theory about the audio signal coming from the SACD player being better transmitted in analog form as opposed to digital.

 

[JK_Livin22]

You're kidding, right? Read my previous post (# 26). Cheers.

Pardon my lack of knowledge but I don't see how questions about the digital-to-analog conversions and where they take place and which is preferable are addressed in post #26? I have not actually purchased the 1930ci but was planning on doing so in the very near future. I am also wanting to learn as much about this as possible for future reference.

 

[JK_Livin22]

Oh. I only saw the 1930 Seth.

Hmm. So he has a 1.1 receiver, and a player that passes mutichannel music only through hdmi? I didn't catch that. It pays to do your research.

The 1930ci only passes multichannel music through hdmi?? I consider this as doing my research...

 

[Seth=L]

I am fully aware that your receiver only has HDMI 1.1, but it can process multichannel lossless PCM. You don't need to use the coaxial or toslink SPDIF connection for audio.

Take for example. Dolby TrueHD is packed data, just like Dolby Digital. In order for you do enjoy Dolby Digital TrueHD or Dolby Digital the data must be converted to PCM. After it's converted to PCM it goes through the digital to analog process. The PS3 can decode Dolby TrueHD internally converting it to multichannel PCM (no loss of quality) and can be sent out via HDMI to your receiver. The audio is picked up off HDMI by the receiver and the digital to analog process occurs in the Marantz. This would be the same scenario if you used the Denon dvd player for a DVD, or DVD-Audio. It will not work with SACD, because HDMI 1.1 does not support DSD. Your receiver would have to feature HDMI 1.2 in order to utilize SACD.

Your Denon DVD player can output multichannel DVD-Audio or SACD over HDMI or the 5.1 multichannel analog outputs. Your Marantz receiver has a multichannel input for use with that type of connection. So you can enjoy SACD on your receiver, you just have to use the bass management system in your DVD player instead of the receiver.

 

[Seth=L]

Pardon my lack of knowledge but I don't see how questions about the digital-to-analog conversions and where they take place and which is preferable are addressed in post #26? I have not actually purchased the 1930ci but was planning on doing so in the very near future. I am also wanting to learn as much about this as possible for future reference.

Ok, what's the purpose of purchasing the Denon DVD player? It will not be able to outperform the PS3 in terms of upscaling. You would be buying it for the DVD-Audio/SACD playback only?

 

[Seth=L]

I guess before I delve any further into this, I should make sure I understand where the digital to analog conversions are taking place.

With a universal DVD/SACD/DVD audio player, when playing a regular DVD, a digital signal is sent via HDMI to the receiver where it is converted to analog before being sent to the speakers (I assume that the video portion of this signal remains in digital form as it is transmitted via HDigitalMI to the TV or video projector). However, when playing an SACD or DVD Audio disc, the signal is converted from digital to analog in the universal DVD/SACD/DVD audio player before being sent to the receiver and therefore must be transmitted via, six analog cables (one for each channel) to the receiver. It seems to be suggested that you get a better audio signal output to the speakers because the receiver does not have to convert the signal from digital to analog because the player did the conversion prior to sending the signal. Regardless of where it takes place, the signal from the SACD or DVD Audio is apparently a digital signal (hence the name DIGITAL Video Disc) and will have to be converted to analog in either the player of the receiver, so why does it matter where the conversion takes place?

I am almost certain I don't understand this correctly, so I would be grateful to any of you guys that are willing to try and straighten me out, .

It doesn't matter so much where the digital to analog conversion takes place. Things you have to consider however. Which has the better Digital/analog converters, the receiver or the DVD player? Which has better bass management, the receiver or the DVD player? Do you want a simple setup? HDMI will offer less hassle more than likely.