Harman Kardon Beats Denon

[3db]

The last receiver I would buy in Onatrio Canada is

Hehe
You reasoned it out why the Denon beat the Yammy , yet the Yammy stated double the rms . Its to bad these ratings didnt have a common ground , the poor consumer is the one getting ripped off and they can't figure out why the NAD's , Brystons and all midfi is so expensive .
I know your Bais towards Yammy , thats great , go ahead , buy it . I personally would own a Denon , HK and NAD well before i play the Yammy game on my hard earned money .
I was at a Big early bird soundsaround sale in my home town and wonderd about how the Yammy Bar worked compared to the Polk Bar and talked to the Yammy rep. , then he ask me if i was interested in any other Yammy product , I told him " im not a big fan of Yammy power " , he looked back at me and smiled . He took no offence and didnt even try to defend his product .

a Denon. The markup for Denon is just freaken crazy and its no better in power reserves than Yamaha. Its a 3 trying to dress up as a 9. Do not put Denon in the same league as NAD, Rotel or HK when it comes to driving difficult loads. It does as well as the Yamaha recievers but nothing more. You can live in your dilusional world thinking Denon is more than Yamaha but its all the same. And while your at it, I rather live with the bullet proof reliabilty and great customer service that comes with Yamaha than the reputation that Denon is starting to build for itself, poor customer service.

 

[gmichael]

Strange. When my Yammie ,rated at 130wpc, was bench tested, it came out with 125wpc. Sure, that's not the same as 130. But is it really so far off? Do you think that the Denons, Onkyos and Pioneers all come out exact?
Why the hatered for Yamaha?

 

[wire]

a Denon. The markup for Denon is just freaken crazy and its no better in power reserves than Yamaha. Its a 3 trying to dress up as a 9. Do not put Denon in the same league as NAD, Rotel or HK when it comes to driving difficult loads. It does as well as the Yamaha recievers but nothing more. You can live in your dilusional world thinking Denon is more than Yamaha but its all the same. And while your at it, I rather live with the bullet proof reliabilty and great customer service that comes with Yamaha than the reputation that Denon is starting to build for itself, poor customer service.

Fine
Denon , my notbe in the same class as NAD . It is unreal the difference between the 2 , the Yammy's amp sections are just not that good , there Pre Pro sections couldbe very good . So the Denon's amp sections mustbe a class higher that Yammy then .
Seth take a look at this Amp by Bob Carver ( back tracking abit on this , one of the last Amps designs with Carver corp before Sunfire , not a bad amp ) . www.carveraudio.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3269&start=30

 

[3db]

just a lost sheep among the flock

Strange. When my Yammie ,rated at 130wpc, was bench tested, it came out with 125wpc. Sure, that's not the same as 130. But is it really so far off? Do you think that the Denons, Onkyos and Pioneers all come out exact?
Why the hatered for Yamaha?

Gee, it came out at a 125 watts, 5 watts under advertised. Its not like the missing 5 watt difference is going tobe even audable.

I think our friend is working with old data and needs to refresh himself IMO.

 

[3db]

a DBT test will dispell your misconceptions about Yamaha

Fine
Denon , my notbe in the same class as NAD . It is unreal the difference between the 2 , the Yammy's amp sections are just not that good , there Pre Pro sections couldbe very good . So the Denon's amp sections mustbe a class higher that Yammy then .
Seth take a look at this Amp by Bob Carver ( back tracking abit on this , one of the last Amps designs with Carver corp before Sunfire , not a bad amp ) . www.carveraudio.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3269&start=30

Why don't you back up your statements with somethig tangeable instead of just spouting off. If only you could come up with something that could be followed logically. The fact that you dismiss a DBT shows your unwillingness to learn something new and IMO renders your comments about Yamaha absolutely useless and not worth reading.

 

[Seth=L]

Fine
Denon , my notbe in the same class as NAD . It is unreal the difference between the 2 , the Yammy's amp sections are just not that good , there Pre Pro sections couldbe very good . So the Denon's amp sections mustbe a class higher that Yammy then .
Seth take a look at this Amp by Bob Carver ( back tracking abit on this , one of the last Amps designs with Carver corp before Sunfire , not a bad amp ) . www.carveraudio.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3269&start=30

No doubt that the Carver Lightstar can pound out some real power. The fact you never see one on Ebay is a good indication of how much their owners like them.

Back to they Yamaha, Denon, NAD story. NAD have beefy amplifiers in their receivers, there is no questioning that. The obvious problem with NAD for us Audioholics (techies and upgradeitus freaks) is their lag. They aren't near as up to date as Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, Pioneer and other larger manufacturers.

Chances are if you spend $1000 on a Yamaha or a Denon (assuming the ratio of price to suggested retail is the same) you are going to get the features and power that each would offer, and they are going to be near identical in power. Unfortunetely Denon's name outclasses their gear, in my most humblest opinion. That isn't to say you can't get a great deal on a Denon, just not likely to get a good deal on a Denon in a retail B&B store or at suggested retail. I am not biased to Yamaha, and I am not really biased against Denon. I have owned receivers from Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, Panasonic, Onkyo, Sherwood, Sony, and JVC. All these receivers fall into the mass produced big box store model categories (aside from the JVC RX-DP9). NAD focuses on the Analog sectors of their gear. From what I have read Rotel does not build their own receivers (not their seperates), I believe they are built to spec by Sherwood.

Yamaha isn't the only manufacturer that prints missleading power figures, Denon does this just as well as most of the larger manufacturers. Depending on what gear they are marketing and who they are marketing to the ratings may be different.

Take for example these two receivers from Denon.

Denon AVR-687/AVR-1707

Each receiver has the same power ratings with near identical features and physical specifications. The AVR-1707 is checked to have IR Serial Remote In/Out terminals where the AVR-687 is not. The AVR-1707 also has pictured an iPod control connection. In any case I don't think it warrants another $50 for those very minute features.

 

[Seth=L]

Gee, it came out at a 125 watts, 5 watts under advertised. Its not like the missing 5 watt difference is going tobe even audable.

I think our friend is working with old data and needs to refresh himself IMO.

The difference of 5 watts at that output is less than half a decibel, not noticeable. So yeah, he should run out and buy a new receiver because he is really missing those 5 watts. HEADROOM, HEADROOM, HEADROOM! A 65 watt per channel amplifier that weighs 15 pounds next to a 50 watt per channel that weighs 35 pounds, which one is going to have the most dynamic power? the one that has the larger power supply, capacitors, and overbuilt output stage is going to be able to drive low impedance loads and transients the 15 pound amplifier can't achieve.

 

[krabapple]

Yeh I understand what you guys are saying. Tommorrow the 745 is arriving at my home and I will test it out. I will probably keep it since I loved the 645 sound and later upgrade the sub.
But nobody has an explanation as to why a $2000 Denon (4306) does not sound as good as a $599 HK.

I have at least two: 1)levels/settings weren't matched, or 2)you were imagining it.

I could not believe it myself.

You're not alone.

 

[wire]

The difference of 5 watts at that output is less than half a decibel, not noticeable. So yeah, he should run out and buy a new receiver because he is really missing those 5 watts. HEADROOM, HEADROOM, HEADROOM! A 65 watt per channel amplifier that weighs 15 pounds next to a 50 watt per channel that weighs 35 pounds, which one is going to have the most dynamic power? the one that has the larger power supply, capacitors, and overbuilt output stage is going to be able to drive low impedance loads and transients the 15 pound amplifier can't achieve.

How do you like that Lightstar ? Talk about Headroom .
Yeh the Yammy and the denon we demoed , the Denon was much cheaper .

 

[zumbo]

It's all hor$e$#!t. My Yamaha is a great receiver. Denon is a great receiver. NAD is a great receiver. Who gives a $hit. All three need an amp added to drive a real pair of speakers. That is, unless you have the overpriced top model.

Get a grip people.

To the OP, HK is garbage. But, if they made your JBL's soung good, Bose may have hope after all.

Hey, don't forget Onkyo and Pioneer Elite!

Watch me!

 

[Seth=L]

It's all hor$e$#!t. My Yamaha is a great receiver. Denon is a great receiver. NAD is a great receiver. Who gives a $hit. All three need an amp added to drive a real pair of speakers. That is, unless you have the overpriced top model.

Get a grip people.

To the OP, HK is garbage. But, if they made your JBL's soung good, Bose may have hope after all.



Watch me!

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed or what?

 

[Seth=L]

How do you like that Lightstar ? Talk about Headroom .
Yeh the Yammy and the denon we demoed , the Denon was much cheaper .

I have had no personal experiance with a Carver piece of that caliber, but I would expect an amp with such heft to perform quite well if not perfect.

 

[wire]

All three need an amp added to drive a real pair of speakers. That is, unless you have the overpriced top model.

Get a grip people.

To the OP, HK is garbage. But, if they made your JBL's soung good, Bose may have hope after all.



Watch me!

Hehe
Good point , but some maybe a tad bit better than others in different things . NAD = good amp section , not sure about the Pre/pro options ( maybe not as good . Not sure but Yammy has lots of options on there pre/pro , but lacking in the Amp section

 

[wire]

I have had no personal experiance with a Carver piece of that caliber, but I would expect an amp with such heft to perform quite well if not perfect.

The guy who owns it states the power of the Lightstar
300 watts per channel dc 40k @ 8 ohms
600 watts per @ 4 ohms
1200 watts per @ 2 ohms
2400 watts per @ 1 ohm
3500 watts per momentary power
There where only 100 made and all sold .

 

[zumbo]

Hehe
Good point , but some maybe a tad bit better than others in different things . NAD = good amp section , not sure about the Pre/pro options ( maybe not as good . Not sure but Yammy has lots of options on there pre/pro , but lacking in the Amp section

As stated in my previous post, it's all HS. There is every bit as much in the amp section in a Yamaha, as a similarly rated Denon or NAD.

Horse-hockey I tell you.

Be sure to wear your good boots.

"Not sure" says it all.

 

[PENG]

Hummm
What does that mean ?
Do you buy into Lies ?
If a product doesnt even come close to what they say it does , its a lie . You can justify it any angle you want , but bottom line it didnt do what it was being sold to do .

Lies or not, reports after reports showed that similarly priced Denon receivers tested more output power than HK receivers. Surely HK typically understates their outputs somewhat (I guess you can't call that lies) but for those who care to do their home work, will know that they still get more "real" watts per dollar with Denon and most likely Yamaha products.

I posted the H.T. mag link several times before, the reports there are easier to read and it showed the 3805 beat the 630 quite a bit in 8 ohms, 4 ohms, into 1,2,and 5 channel outputs.

Here's another link to detailed test results, the differences here are less dramatic but the Denon still came out on top. Also, if you compare the frequency response of the 630 to the 3805 (comparable in price in their time in the US and the 630 cost a few hundred bucks more than the 3805 in Canada), there is no evidence for the HK to be any "warmer". They both showed -XdB in high frequencies, and there was nothing unusual in their output impedance characteristics. I am going to try and search for test reports for Yammies but my guess is they offer similar W/$.

 

[wire]

As stated in my previous post, it's all HS. There is every bit as much in the amp section in a Yamaha, as a similarly rated Denon or NAD.

Horse-hockey I tell you.

Be sure to wear your good boots.

"Not sure" says it all.

Hehe
You mustbe be a Yammy fan .
Im not a fan of any , but if i had to make a choice . from experence , i would take a NAD or Denon over the Ball Less yammy . .

 

[wire]

. Surely HK typically understates their outputs somewhat (I guess you can't call that lies) but for those who care to do their home work, will know that they still get more "real" watts per dollar with Denon and most likely Yamaha products.

Im not bashing Denon or H/K , just yammy and it couldbe or not with yammy , but if you need the power , it will likely not deliver when you push it .

 

[PENG]

I forgot to include this link in my last post.

http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/index.html

You test results for the 3805 and 630 are quite detailed.

 

[PENG]

Im not bashing Denon or H/K , just yammy and it couldbe or not with yammy , but if you need the power , it will likely not deliver when you push it .

Fair enough wire, but okay let's talk about the Yamaha. I could not find lab test data for the recent models but let's compare the older 7 channel surround models. The AVR330 and the RX-V657 were probably priced similarly in the U.S. but the AVR330 was priced much higher than the Yamaha in Canada.

According the lab test data from the S&V mag, the comparison between the HKAVR330 and Yamaha RX-V657 shows:

Output at clipping

1 channel at 8 ohms
RX-V657 - 181W
AVR330 - 95W

1 channel at 4 ohms
RX-V657 - 278W
AVR330 - 148W

5 channels at 8 ohms
RX-V657 – 67W
AVR330 – 66W

Stereo performance both channels driven at 8 ohms
RX-V657 - 129W
AVR330 - 86W

Stereo performance both channels driven at 4 ohms
RX-V657 - 188W
AVR330 - 25W (Reviewer said the protection circuit shut the system down)

Distortion at reference level
RX-V657 - 0.02%
AVR330 - 0.03%

Frequency response (Hz/dB)
20-20,000
RX-V657 - +0, -0.4
AVR330 - +0, -0.4

Frequency response analog input:
RX-V657 - <10 Hz to 104 kHz +0, –3 dB
AVR330 - <10 Hz to 72 kHz +0, –1 dB (–3 dB at 156 kHz)

If you want to check the details out yourself the links are:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/874/pioneer-vsx-74txvi-digital-surround-receiver.html

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/322004162858.pdf

The test data alone are probably not enough proof to say one is necessarily more powerful or sounding better than the other. My guess is that people might have been largely influenced by hearsays of claims (based on may be a couple of reviews and test data of some earlier models) that Yammies are weak, bright etc. to start with; and then the Placebo effect sets in during their subsequent listening sessions of their own.

The links have been posted several times before, but I hope by comparing some of the relevant test data of two at models at the opposite ends of the issue "conservatively rated versus exaggerated (some say lies) rated", one can see that it is the Watts/Dollar that really counts in the end.