Handcuffed black man shot in the back by BART officer, sparks riots.

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jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
So what? So his life is forfeit? So it's OK for him to be executed by police officers? Police officers who had no idea he was on parole or had a curfew?

No, his life is not forfeit. No one deserves to be executed for being out after a curfew. When people of any sort are illegally killed by police officers, in the street, in front of crowds, while pinned face-down on the ground, we all lose.
I am not arguing with you. I 100% see your point.

NOW: If this guy would have been honoring his parole.....

All I can say is this: The life of a criminal is not an inherently safe one. I don't believe that he was 'executed'. My opinion is that it was an accident. I believe it is some degree of man-slaughter (killing with out the premeditation or intent).

I honestly have more sympathy for the victims of his crimes than him though.
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
I just spent some time searching, and I have seen zero indication that Grant was out "past curfew."
 
M

mjfoster77

Audioholic
Hi Abe,im not singeling you out,more like focusing on the comment.

I think riots are needed,our law makers & law enforcement agencies do not respond to emails & angry phone calls,they need to be responded to & dealt with in a manner that they can understand which is brute force.

All of our police agencies have lost their way,they have all adopted swat style tactics for dealing with even the slightest violation of any law,the tactics that they've been taught have led to many deaths & instances of police going overboard resulting in dead or half beaten citizens.

IMO the only thing police understand is violence,its what they know.
As a police officer I'm offended by your ignorance! I would love for you to repeat your statement to the famlies of all the fallen Philadelphia police officers. It seemed like every other month in 2008 there was an officer killed in the line of duty.

Why do we train in "swat" style tactics? Because things can and do go badly quickly. A traffic stop for a red light can turn into a wanted, violent felon. A bank alarm can turn into a robbery as you exit your patrol car. These people killing cops weren't law abidding citizens, they were career criminals who felt they had no choice but to KILL to stay out of prison.

Don't give me that NO one's listening. There are ways and proper channels to deal with things. If you don't listen to you kid, should you kid be allowed to act out violently towards you because they didn't get the response they wanted? No! If we didn't train in "Swat" style tactics, there would be more officers killed in the line because when the S**t did hit the fan there would be more incidents like this guy who thought he had his tazer. This guy was obviously clueless, and in a stressful situation. You always carry your firearm cocked,meaning one in the chamber. And my tazer is always on my weak side hip.

There are always two sides to a story, and somewhere in between is the truth.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
As a police officer I'm offended by your ignorance! I would love for you to repeat your statement to the famlies of all the fallen Philadelphia police officers. It seemed like every other month in 2008 there was an officer killed in the line of duty.

Why do we train in "swat" style tactics?
So you can be an arrogant ******* when pulling me over for doing 61 in a 55?

My experience in 20+ years of driving:

1 ticket (that stuck *rear ender*) 2 others that I went to court over and walked out not guilty.

5 times pulled over

4 times the LEO has been a complete ****. The one cool one was in Cuyahoga Falls.

BTW, I had two room mates that are cops. I have heard all the 'boys club' stories. Angels cops are not.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
As a police officer I'm offended by your ignorance! I would love for you to repeat your statement to the famlies of all the fallen Philadelphia police officers. It seemed like every other month in 2008 there was an officer killed in the line of duty.
Im glad your offended,the police have offended me most of my life,then tell me too f-in bad, shut up or go to jail.

Not only would i repeat in person i'd do it with a happy smile on my face,i base my veiws on police from what i see everyday & from the way i have been treated,police lost my respect many years ago from my own personal experiences with them,most of which are 100% negative,while i do feel for the wives & children because they are innocents its impossible for me to feel pity or sorrow for those who've treated me badly at every oportunity.

You want respect then earn it,many other civilized countries get along just fine without allowing their police forces to use swat tactics & treat everybody they come across as total garbage,kick families doors down at 3 am,threaten wives & children & steal personal property under the guise of self interest based seizure laws .

You want to defend the approved swat tactics you use by pointing to instances where cops get hurt or killed as the reason making the tactics nessacary ?:rolleyes:,these instances are far less than the doccumented instances where police go overboard & hurt or kill people,much like the case of Thomas Jones in your very own state,where 10 police officers from your dept in philly,kicked,stomped & beat this man,your dept rallied to the defense of these brutal cops by saying he shot a cop (Officer Livewell ) and hit this cop in the hand,nevermind the video of the cops beating & stomping this man He Shot a Cop !!!!!!!

It was later uncovered, with no help from your police dept i might add that the suspect didnt shoot the cop,another cop shot officer Livewell in the hand,then blamed the suspect,with full cooperation & full media backing from your superiors:eek:.

Again,no pity here,ive taught my children to fear the police & to shun police at every oportunity,so have many others,we just dont trust you any longer from your proven track records,the case in which this thread started over is a mere drop in the bucket of how police act.

Oh btw,if my 107 lb wife was broken down on the road side with a flat you'd pull up behind her in your cop car,get out,make her give you her ID card,run her plates & name,then give her the ID card back & split the scene without even helping her change her tire,a common pratice taught to all cops,i'd say you guys have pretty clearly lost your way.
 
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jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
I think many police officers are grumpy because they have to deal with pissed off, upset, and often violent and dangerous people all day long.

Good job teaching your kids to fear and shun the police. Maybe they'll end up like Oscar Grant.
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
In my youth I was not a huge fan of police (got a ticket for going 27 in a 25 mph zone) and other instances where I caused the police to be involved. I work alongside a police officer (one of the nicest guys you could ever meet). I can understand why police are harsh because all they hear is BS story after BS story day after day, so it's hard for them to believe anybody when they actually do have a valid reason for speeding. One thing I do have is the most upright respect for them and the job they do. One day six months ago, some guy was trying to break into my backyard shed and I called the cops. They were there in 2 minutes time and pursued the guy for two blocks till they caught him. Everyone hates a cop till they need them. Can you imagine the anarchy if we didn't have law enforcement. I may have had more than my fair share of pryck cops in my day, but you know what, that never diminishes the fact that I respect them as a whole and do not judge them based on the actions of a few bad apples. What happened is a tragedy, but Oscar put himself in harms way and that can't be denied.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
If you let yourself get offended by comments and a mindset such as this, you'll be bitter your whole life. Anyone who makes such ignorant assertions, holds such twisted opinions, should be taken at face value, nothing more. While they are certainly within their rights to feel that way and we should respect their right to have that opinion, you certainly don't have to provide credibility to it by getting upset.

"i've taught my kids to fear the police and shun the police."

Does that remark not say a lot to you? I love this country so much because someone can spew comments such as that, yet call 911 a second later and get men and women willing to risk their lives rushing to their aid. It's sad, but it's the downside of what makes the United States what it is. Personally, I think you should have some sort of "Opt Out" clause where if you really do feel that way, you should make some sort of official declaration that "frees" you from the services of the police. So that if someone does break into your home to bring harm to your family, the police don't have to respond and you are free to call some other lifeline.


As a police officer I'm offended by your ignorance! I would love for you to repeat your statement to the famlies of all the fallen Philadelphia police officers. It seemed like every other month in 2008 there was an officer killed in the line of duty.

Why do we train in "swat" style tactics? Because things can and do go badly quickly. A traffic stop for a red light can turn into a wanted, violent felon. A bank alarm can turn into a robbery as you exit your patrol car. These people killing cops weren't law abidding citizens, they were career criminals who felt they had no choice but to KILL to stay out of prison.

Don't give me that NO one's listening. There are ways and proper channels to deal with things. If you don't listen to you kid, should you kid be allowed to act out violently towards you because they didn't get the response they wanted? No! If we didn't train in "Swat" style tactics, there would be more officers killed in the line because when the S**t did hit the fan there would be more incidents like this guy who thought he had his tazer. This guy was obviously clueless, and in a stressful situation. You always carry your firearm cocked,meaning one in the chamber. And my tazer is always on my weak side hip.

There are always two sides to a story, and somewhere in between is the truth.
 
M

mjfoster77

Audioholic
First of all I don't work in Philadelphia. You seem to have the type of "logic" that you would teach your kids not to snitch too. I feel sorry for you.! There maybe, actually there are bad cops. As in society as a whole, don't let a few bad apples ruin the bunch.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
First of all I don't work in Philadelphia. You seem to have the type of "logic" that you would teach your kids not to snitch too. I feel sorry for you.! There maybe, actually there are bad cops. As in society as a whole, don't let a few bad apples ruin the bunch.
By the way, I forgot to tell you "thank you" for doing what you guys do. That's forgotten way too much unfortunately.
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
Im glad your offended,the police have offended me most of my life,then tell me too f-in bad, shut up or go to jail.

Not only would i repeat in person i'd do it with a happy smile on my face,i base my veiws on police from what i see everyday & from the way i have been treated,police lost my respect many years ago from my own personal experiences with them,most of which are 100% negative,while i do feel for the wives & children because they are innocents its impossible for me to feel pity or sorrow for those who've treated me badly at every oportunity.

You want respect then earn it,many other civilized countries get along just fine without allowing their police forces to use swat tactics & treat everybody they come across as total garbage,kick families doors down at 3 am,threaten wives & children & steal personal property under the guise of self interest based seizure laws .

You want to defend the approved swat tactics you use by pointing to instances where cops get hurt or killed as the reason making the tactics nessacary ?:rolleyes:,these instances are far less than the doccumented instances where police go overboard & hurt or kill people,much like the case of Thomas Jones in your very own state,where 10 police officers from your dept in philly,kicked,stomped & beat this man,your dept rallied to the defense of these brutal cops by saying he shot a cop (Officer Livewell ) and hit this cop in the hand,nevermind the video of the cops beating & stomping this man He Shot a Cop !!!!!!!

It was later uncovered, with no help from your police dept i might add that the suspect didnt shoot the cop,another cop shot officer Livewell in the hand,then blamed the suspect,with full cooperation & full media backing from your superiors:eek:.

Again,no pity here,ive taught my children to fear the police & to shun police at every oportunity,so have many others,we just dont trust you any longer from your proven track records,the case in which this thread started over is a mere drop in the bucket of how police act.

Oh btw,if my 107 lb wife was broken down on the road side with a flat you'd pull up behind her in your cop car,get out,make her give you her ID card,run her plates & name,then give her the ID card back & split the scene without even helping her change her tire,a common pratice taught to all cops,i'd say you guys have pretty clearly lost your way.
I've had my share of run ins with the police. Often, I've felt that I was treated with disrespect and am not the first person to praise them. But to have as much hate as you seem to have to teach your children to "fear the police & to shun police at every opportunity" seems like a problem to me. Remember, the police have guns and for the most part, public backing. Don't you see that you are bringing your kids up in such a way that it puts them in danger? You don't have to respect the police to understand that your best bet is to do what they say. If you have issues with what they make you do, then get a lawyer after it's over and get your revenge. Don't put your life in danger just out of foolish pride. It won't end well for you. Choose your fights wisely.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
I've had my share of run ins with the police. Often, I've felt that I was treated with disrespect and am not the first person to praise them. But to have as much hate as you seem to have to teach your children to "fear the police & to shun police at every opportunity" seems like a problem to me. Remember, the police have guns and for the most part, public backing. Don't you see that you are bringing your kids up in such a way that it puts them in danger? You don't have to respect the police to understand that your best bet is to do what they say. If you have issues with what they make you do, then get a lawyer after it's over and get your revenge. Don't put your life in danger just out of foolish pride. It won't end well for you. Choose your fights wisely.

I have no idea where your comming from,how is having taught my children to fear the police putting them or me in any danger ?You've taken what i said way out of contex.What i have taught them is to be wary of the police at every encounter & to understand at all times that if the police are on the scene they are there to arrest somebody.

First off the police are not our friends & they are not here to help us,they are there to arrest & level as many charges against anybody they can if at all possible,they are allowed to use anything we say against us in court but we cant use anything we say to them in our own defense because its heresay,the police are allowed to threaten family members with jail if they do not cooporate & give information against another family member,they are allowed to threaten mothers with the loss of their children if they dont cooporate by giving info against a family member,they are also allowed to lie when questioning people,these are facts not my personal thoughts about police.

This is what ive taught my children.

1 Police are not their friends.
2 Dont resist arrest.
3 Do not ever talk to a cop willingly.
4 Police are allowed to give false information (lie) to you when questioning you, in order to extract information from you,or to get you to incriminate yourself.
5 Everything a cop says to you,no matter how harmless it seems is designed to gain information against you,even when recieving a speeding ticket,for instance (do you know why i pulled you over??,or, do you know how fast you were going?? )
6 Offer no resistance but remain silent at all times,no matter the issue.
7 Do not ever agree to any personal searches.
8 Do not agree to any searches of their vehicles.If a cop insists on a search & calls in a drug dog watch the cop at all times if possible to watch for signs of a forced alert stemming from the cops actions or commands,take mental notes of every word or hand motion of the cop running the dog.
9 Do not answer the cops loaded questions when being pulled over.
10 Do not answer the door for the police.
11 If the door is open & the police ask to come in say no,then close the door.
12 Do not step outside for the police to be questioned,instead ask if they have a warrant,if not then close the door.
13 If they break down on the road they are to leave the vehicle & call a cab.
14 If they are promised by the police that they will not go to jail if they give up the information the police want not to cooporate,if the police can take you to jail 9 times out of 10 they will,or after you talk they will allow you to remain free for a few days & leave the issue Pending Further Investigation,then a few days later the cops come back & get them.

15 The most important thing of all ive taught them & what all cops are trained to rely very heavily on,dont be in a rush to tell your side of the story,police count on the persons natural response of wanting to tell their side of the story,everybody wants their side of the story to be heard & cops know it too,this leads to many arrests that would never of happened if they'd of just shut up & not spoken to the police at all,there is nothing anybody can say to a cop that will keep them from going to jail,if a cop can take your a$$ your on your way to jail,unless the jail is full.

This information was given to me from a life long friend who's a member of the Detroit Police dept who also reccomends to friends that they take this stance with police at all times,these are our rights as US Citizens,ask any lawyer & he will tell you to do the same.

Your taking what i said way out of contex,at no time did i say ive told my children to resist the police,i have told them to know their rights when dealing with the police,ive taught them to understand that the way police talk to people is by design an attempt to get them to incriminate themselves,by remaining silent,refusing voluntary searches of their person & vehicles & limiting any contact with the police they are limiting their chances of arrest,jail time & excessive fines.

How is that putting anybody in danger.
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
I have no idea where your comming from,how is having taught my children to fear the police putting them or me in any danger ?You've taken what i said way out of contex.What i have taught them is to be wary of the police at every encounter & to understand at all times that if the police are on the scene they are there to arrest somebody.

First off the police are not our friends & they are not here to help us,they are there to arrest & level as many charges against anybody they can if at all possible,they are allowed to use anything we say against us in court but we cant use anything we say to them in our own defense because its heresay,the police are allowed to threaten family members with jail if they do not cooporate & give information against another family member,they are allowed to threaten mothers with the loss of their children if they dont cooporate by giving info against a family member,they are also allowed to lie when questioning people,these are facts not my personal thoughts about police.

This is what ive taught my children.

1 Police are not their friends.
2 Dont resist arrest.
3 Do not ever talk to a cop willingly.
4 Police are allowed to give false information (lie) to you when questioning you, in order to extract information from you,or to get you to incriminate yourself.
5 Everything a cop says to you,no matter how harmless it seems is designed to gain information against you,even when recieving a speeding ticket,for instance (do you know why i pulled you over??,or, do you know how fast you were going?? )
6 Offer no resistance but remain silent at all times,no matter the issue.
7 Do not ever agree to any personal searches.
8 Do not agree to any searches of their vehicles.If a cop insists on a search & calls in a drug dog watch the cop at all times if possible to watch for signs of a forced alert stemming from the cops actions or commands,take mental notes of every word or hand motion of the cop running the dog.
9 Do not answer the cops loaded questions when being pulled over.
10 Do not answer the door for the police.
11 If the door is open & the police ask to come in say no,then close the door.
12 Do not step outside for the police to be questioned,instead ask if they have a warrant,if not then close the door.
13 If they break down on the road they are to leave the vehicle & call a cab.
14 If they are promised by the police that they will not go to jail if they give up the information the police want not to cooporate,if the police can take you to jail 9 times out of 10 they will,or after you talk they will allow you to remain free for a few days & leave the issue Pending Further Investigation,then a few days later the cops come back & get them.

15 The most important thing of all ive taught them & what all cops are trained to rely very heavily on,dont be in a rush to tell your side of the story,police count on the persons natural response of wanting to tell their side of the story,everybody wants their side of the story to be heard & cops know it too,this leads to many arrests that would never of happened if they'd of just shut up & not spoken to the police at all,there is nothing anybody can say to a cop that will keep them from going to jail,if a cop can take your a$$ your on your way to jail,unless the jail is full.

This information was given to me from a life long friend who's a member of the Detroit Police dept who also reccomends to friends that they take this stance with police at all times,these are our rights as US Citizens,ask any lawyer & he will tell you to do the same.

Your taking what i said way out of contex,at no time did i say ive told my children to resist the police,i have told them to know their rights when dealing with the police,ive taught them to understand that the way police talk to people is by design an attempt to get them to incriminate themselves,by remaining silent,refusing voluntary searches of their person & vehicles & limiting any contact with the police they are limiting their chances of arrest,jail time & excessive fines.

How is that putting anybody in danger.
This is good information to give out. But it is not what you were saying before. See this part, "I think riots are needed,our law makers & law enforcement agencies do not respond to emails & angry phone calls,they need to be responded to & dealt with in a manner that they can understand which is brute force."

And then again here, "Again,no pity here,ive taught my children to fear the police & to shun police at every oportunity,so have many others,we just dont trust you any longer from your proven track records,the case in which this thread started over is a mere drop in the bucket of how police act."
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
I guess I should be greatful that I was raised, and have raised my daughter the same, to live the kind of life such that you need not worry about being on the opposite side of the police.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
I guess I fall in the middle.

My personal experiences have taught me to be wary of police. But I do appreciate the job that they do, and generally believe that they are there to help. Are their bad cops? Of course. There are bad members of any group of society. They have a hard job, and dealing with the scum of society must take a toll. But that doesn't give cops an excuse to throw their weight around.

I've had dealings with cops that were dycks, but I've also met ones that were pretty cool. I don't think you need to shun all contact with the police, but you definitely need to watch what you say, and one should always be aware when dealing with them. If you don't do anything stupid, you'll probably be all right.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
"i've taught my kids to fear the police and shun the police."

Does that remark not say a lot to you? I love this country so much because someone can spew comments such as that, yet call 911 a second later and get men and women willing to risk their lives rushing to their aid.
Who calls 911,are you refering to me,if so i dont think so,calling 911 where i come from is a complete waste of time,if the cops do show up it will be several hours later,my wife has called 911 before & was told after her 3rd call that if somebody wasnt dying or bleeding to death they were not comming.I reported this instance to the local news station.

If something so terrible is going on around my home that the police are needed we'd all be dead before they arrived,i protect my own home & family with a fenced & gated yard,guard dog, security doors & windows,alarm system and a willingness on my part to immediately put an end any altercation that might lead to a member of my family being hurt,the only time i'd bother calling 911 is to come clean up the mess after i took care of it,and no im not a big tough guy either, i just know that criminals have zero fear of the police.

On one instance my wife,myself & my elderly mother who was in her late 70's at the time were going out to dinner when we got pulled over,the car was in my name & since i have a prison record they "approached with caution ",im used to it so no big deal on my end.

The cop ordered me to exit the vehicle via the loudspeaker on the cop car,then had me lay face down on the wet road,cuffed me with the standard knee in the spine & the customary yanking of my arms as far as possible,again im used to it so no protest on my part i just keep my mouth shut,his partner then went to the car,made my wife who was in the front seat get out of the car & told her to stand on the side of the road while he checked her out,she pointed at the snow bank on the road side then pointed at her feet,she was wearing ballerina type slippers,the cop screamed at her to get her *** over there or go to jail,she did as they told her to but within a few minutes her little feet were freezing so she stepped out on the road which was plowed,at that poing the cop freaked directly out.

The cop rushed my wife yelling at her, asking her if she was stupid & how come she cant understand what he told her to do,when she said her feet were freezing he grabbed her up by the arm,wrenched her arms behind her back,cuffed her & yakned her fast pace walk all the way to the car & through her in the back for disobeying police instructions,my wife is very petite & extremely soft spoken,she's a school teacher,the cop asked her why she couldnt follow instructions,when she responded she spoke very softly which is how she allways speaks & the cop couldnt hear her,i never can hear my wife my ownself she speaks so softly & its frusatrating,he asked her to repeat herself which she did but again in a very low voice,at that point he asked her if she was on drugs,my wife was a school teacher not a drug addict !,all the while im still in the road on my belly.

Now that im on my belly & my wifes in the cop car they move on to my mother,at this point my mother is hysterical from watching what they did to my wife,the cop gets to her & she starts crying & says to the cop "please dont hurt me,im an old woman & i cant be yanked around like that,then she kept saying over & over again to the cop "please dont hurt me we've done nothing wrong,im an old woman & i cant take this,she is absolutely hysterical with fear.

At this point after seeing how their actions were being reflected in my mothers terrified state the cop chilled out,told my mother to calm down & said nobody's been hurt nor is anybody going to get hurt,they were just doing their jobs:rolleyes:.

After writing me a simple ticket they uncuffed my wife ,but not before telling her how lucky she was that they didnt take her to jail for interfering with a police investigation,then walked back to their car & watched us drive off.

Thats alot of mistreatment of citizens over a simple traffic incident but i guess we deserved it because the cops were only thinking of their own saftey since ive been to prison,right ?

Or how's about the time the police came to my home in response to a loud motorcycle complaint,then shot & killed my dog in front of my children all because the dog rushed the door when they knocked :rolleyes:

An internal police investigation cleared the cop of any wrong doing,they went on to agree that the cop was justified in shooting the dog in fear of his own saftey,even though the screen door is a steel security door with no openings large enough to fit yout fist through & would take a battering ram to break down the cop was still justified,right ?

Or when my wife had a flat tire,sher cant change tires so she called AAA like she's supposed to do,while waiting in her car for the tow truck a state cop pulled up behind her,made her fess up her drivers liscense,ran her name & plates then gave her back her ID then split,she had done nothing wrong but the cop saw a chance to check an ID & hopefully arrest somebody who was doing nothing wrong.

I could fill this forum with negative examples ive had with the police, like how horribly my wife & myself were treated by the police after the death of one of our sons,so terrible that my cop friend who was there had to pull the dectectives aside & tell them to chill the F out, but in the end most here would say that ive been deserving of the negative treatment at the hands of the police because ive been to prison,twice:eek:,and that the police are only thinking of their saftey :rolleyes:,thats what happens when you brainwash an entire society into believing that a cops saftey comes before the decent & humane treatment of the citizens they are paid to protect.

Its great you've had good experiences with the police but not everybody has,you can love your country all you want but let the police abuse you or your family a few times & see how you feel,in the mean time dont look down on others who have been mistreated by the police because not everybody fits the mold of the crack smoking street hoodlum or the carrer criminal.
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
So why'd you get pulled over?

I must say that it sounds like most of your "issues" with the police are your own doing.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
So why'd you get pulled over?

I must say that it sounds like most of your "issues" with the police are your own doing.
I would say there there is a decent # of posters here that have no love of the po po simply through experience.

What do you have to say to that?
 
N

nick1000000

Full Audioholic
I love it when people complain about being pulled over for speeding and the officer not being friendly. You could be doing 26 in a 25 or 125 in a 25, you broke the law by speeding and the cop caught you. Thats it! The cop is not your friend. He/she does not have to act like it. They are not in the customer service industry. People are just mad they got caught and the cop is a dyck if they don't let you off and inconveniencing you if they do. Why should they be nice to you? You were endangering others by speeding and you gave the officer paperwork.:D

Back on topic.

Whether the officer accidentally shot the guy or did it on purpose, he was in the wrong. There was no reason for him to have his weapon drawn. He has resigned and the only way for there to be justice for the family is to press charges. So why riot. The city and the BART police have done nothing wrong. You cannot blame the BART police training for that one officer. You can blame his lack of experience with those types of situations. I personally think it is embarrassing to see people riot. How can you want respect and to be taken serious when you go out and riot?
 
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