Gene got the Ban Hammer!

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I agree with this but only as half of the story.


Tweaking by ear often means a step away from the great sound towards someone’s personal taste.



I would be ready to make a bet that you could find more cases where speakers that are perfectly capable of decent sound sound awful because of the entire setup and the owner is ready to jump at you saying that if you think speakers sound bad that’s because your hearing is not as good as his.

Ears adapt. They will always bend their backs under the weight of ones ego. They can adapt to bad sound as well as good. And never ever will you find a guy who’ll say these speakers sound great to me because my ears adapted to bad sound. It’s always the other way around.

The entire Bose sales strategy in having their shops far away from others relies on people’s ears adapting.

Another thing, if you turn on the mic and start registering sound and then mic’s wife comes in starts bitching how he doesn’t register her anymore, but always registers some music and sounds and how he’s not there when she needs him, the mic will NOT start hating those same sounds he enjoyed a second ago.

The fact that his ears are more relevant to one is simply because they are the bottle neck between him and the sound and he has to please them. But that fact tells us very little about the sound and the quality of the speakers. Perhaps he just likes the speakers because they can play as bad as he needs them to play.

The reason I would never rush to please and accommodate my ears is because those same treacherous ears could ask for a completely different set of speakers the very next week.

I try to learn what good speakers are through reading research and then I tell my ears “this is what I want you to adapt to, rather than some Bose, Magnat, kevlar ripping my ear drums, Rega, ZuAudio etc.” As long as you go by ears you might have just adapted to a bad thing like a beginner on an ill tuned guitar playing and still not knowing he is out of tune. And if he is on a desert island he’ll carry on playing out of tune until the world ends.
Another thing I would like to see debated here is all this "timbre" shite. A D on brass and wood differs because of timbre, your speaker should reproduce both. You should be able to tell them apart. You should be able to tell which is which. Timbre often comes from the body of the instrument, The body of the speaker should be dead. If it's not dead at least one of all those timbres (??? timbres, timbri... sorry, I'll look it up) should be skewd in comparison to the source sound.
I understand and agree with most of what you have to say.
One of my favorite examples is a comparison I did between a pair of old Advent Legacy speakers and Behringer Truth speakers.
Listening to the original version of the Eagles' Hotel California, the bass was wonderful and lush on the Advents and comparatively austere on the Truths, but when I played Steely Dan, the Truths were tight and the Advents were comparatively sloppy!
My conclusion was that the Advent had resonance that did not belong, but I cannot deny that the bass on Hotel California sounded better that way. If that was the only song I listened to, the Advents were convincingly a better speaker.
IME, there have been many times where a speaker excelled in a certain place in a song, but revealed the same characteristic as a weakness in another place in the same song. And this is a problem, especially with electric music where, for example, a guitar amp often presents the musician with a tremendous array of effects to apply to the sound of their guitar. We don't know what the right sound is.

However, where I part company from you is with acoustic instrumentation. For people who routinely either play in or attend performances of Orchestras, big bands, brass quartets, etc. we would tell our ears “this is what I want you to adapt to, rather than some reproduction of these sounds”

A great example of this is Dennis Murphy of Philharmonic Audio. If you have been to his website, you know he believes in measurements.
However, when wanting to evaluate a speaker without his measurement gear setup, he threw on a disc of a symphony and went to a specific place where they played a full chord across the entire orchestra. He listened for about 45 seconds and had a pretty good idea of its character. That does not mean measurements would not further assist him, but it tells me that with the kind of experience he has playing violin in an orchestra and other ensembles combined with the years he has spent tuning and measuring speakers and comparing measurements against his subjective impressions, he has a pretty refined ear.

The same goes for me (to a much lesser extent). I want my speakers to measure well, but if a trombone doesn't sound like the real ones I hear at least 7 hours per week (cumulative rehearsal times for three big bands) it is not right!
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
@KEW this is a very interesting post. I enjoyed reading it. But I failed to see where exactly we part our ways.

I agree with everything you say.

Perhaps I wrote something clumpsy or failed to explain myself so I misled you.

Sure, representation is not the original. I took it for granted that if we're discussing speakers and gear, we're leaving out the originals. So we are discussing only the reproduction.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
@KEW this is a very interesting post. I enjoyed reading it. But I failed to see where exactly we part our ways.

I agree with everything you say.

Perhaps I wrote something clumpsy or failed to explain myself so I misled you.

Sure, representation is not the original. I took it for granted that if we're discussing speakers and gear, we're leaving out the originals. So we are discussing only the reproduction.
Ah, I see now where I did not catch your first sentence :)oops:Oops!) where you said that was only half of the story. I misread that you were saying you cannot give any credence to your ears.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
So I wouldn’t agree that eqing by ear is right and by mic is wrong. I use mics. I just also wouldn’t agree that extreme amounts of eq seeking perfect flatness of measurement is most accurate. It’s very likely that flat in room eq has created a total acoustic mess and our ears hear it as anything but accurate.
It takes a blend and you have to understand what the measurements mean to your room and setup.

I use my mic system to get FR and time alignment corrected. The it's onto adjust to taste. Measurement systems are getting the bulk of the food cooked and then by ear adjustment is season to taste.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
It takes a blend and you have to understand what the measurements mean to your room and setup.

I use my mic system to get FR and time alignment corrected. The it's onto adjust to taste. Measurement systems are getting the bulk of the food cooked and then by ear adjustment is season to taste.

I agree. You do use both. Anyone who knows me knows I’m a huge advocate of measurements and use them extensively. I do eq to taste at the end, usually adjusting a dB here or there and playing with the levels and shelf filters.

I hope nobody has taken my points to be suggesting I think measurements shouldn’t be used for system setup. My point was that microphones don’t hear like we hear and as such should not be treated as a standin for us. In fact, when you do take measurements, knowing that difference is critical in interpreting the data. You shouldn’t become overly reliant on measurements at the expense of what sounds good given that a system can easily be made to measure “good” and still sound bad. Yes more measurements could likely explain why it sounds bad, but I would guess most people setting systems up this way are also people not able to delve more deeply into the data and take the necessary measurements to figure out why.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
And this is a problem, especially with electric music where, for example, a guitar amp often presents the musician with a tremendous array of effects to apply to the sound of their guitar. We don't know what the right sound is.
Anecdotally, from more than one source (the sender and recipient), an example of guitars and amps that weren't used for more than one sound- the rig Pete Townsend used on Who's Next was sent to him by Joe Walsh; guitar, amp, cables and Wah Wah pedal, with instructions that none of the settings be changed. He was basically saying "Here's the sound you should use". Another is Neil Young, who generally used one electric guitar and amp for much of his career after CSNY- a Les Paul he calls 'Old Black' and a Fender Deluxe amp. He changes the volume and tone settings, but in reality, that's all he can do with that amp because that's all it has- two volume controls and one for tone- he has a box that sits on top and uses servo motors to make changes, based on a set of switches. It has been reported that in his quest for a duplicate amp in case the main one goes down, he has bought over 300 others, never being satisfied that any sounds the same as the one he uses. Personally, I find that a bit hard to believe- it's a very simple design, but I guess the transformer variances could make this possible if the component values have drifted, too.

Pedals, OTOH, can make the guitar sound like they want. It has become such a joke that this link shows one that every guitar player needs-

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s403x403/18582154_10203155565167168_6075653601935559496_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=168c34a54b12cce6880e96778c2e1526&oe=5BDCDEAB
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I just have to say Gene? Your my hero. Although I respect the knowledge on that site man some of those guys are just aholes in getting they're point across. Like you said I've seen them deliberately bait somebody just to try and trash them. I pick up knowledge there but I'd never be comfortable interacting. I come to you guys for that I've never felt uncomfortable being new on this site and having someone help me learn from my mistakes or help me grow and learn. Over there? Yeah I've seen a lot of needless bashing.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
And what you guys say about measurements and ears I agree with all of it. Being newer at this I have to rely heavily on measurements but as I get more experience and more exposure to different systems equipment and get to hear them I get more and more confident at getting the eq to get the bulk of it right in my listening environment and then doing the final tweaking by ear. Although I think I'm guilty of overadjusting my subs too much by ear. I'm a bassaholic and I like bass waaaaaaaay too much :)
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Anecdotally, from more than one source (the sender and recipient),an example of guitars and amps that weren't used for more than one sound- the rig Pete Townsend used on Who's Next was sent to him by Joe Walsh; guitar, amp, cables and Wah Wah pedal, with instructions that none of the settings be changed. He was basically saying "Here's the sound you should use". Another is Neil Young, who generally used one electric guitar and amp for much of his career after CSNY- a Les Paul he calls 'Old Black' and a Fender Deluxe amp. He changes the volume and tone settings, but in reality, that's all he can do with that amp because that's all it has- two volume controls and one for tone- he has a box that sits on top and uses servo motors to make changes, based on a set of switches. It has been reported that in his quest for a duplicate amp in case the main one goes down, he has bought over 300 others, never being satisfied that any sounds the same as the one he uses. Personally, I find that a bit hard to believe- it's a very simple design, but I guess the transformer variances could make this possible if the component values have drifted, too.

Pedals, OTOH, can make the guitar sound like they want. It has become such a joke that this link shows one that every guitar player needs-

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s403x403/18582154_10203155565167168_6075653601935559496_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=168c34a54b12cce6880e96778c2e1526&oe=5BDCDEAB
I hope I'm not dragging this too far, but I see the role of speakers and equipment for sound reproduction a little bit different.

I don't think that speakers should reincarnate an original instrument, I think they should reproduce the studio recording. I think the studio recording is the blueprint for hifi equipment, although, I would say that blueprint for the studio should be the original instrument.

Hence, no matter how artificial a sound may be, you still have a very clear goal and you know exactly what you need to achieve with your speakers, because you have the blueprint and it is the studio recording.

If you allow an analogy with a different field of art; when I hang a portrait of my favourite dictator in my living room ( :D ) I don't expect to be tricked into believing that he is really there and I don't try to talk to him.

Much the same way, I'm not expecting my speakers to trick me into believing my favourite band is in my living room. I expect a representation and not presentation.

No matter how realistic a painting may be, you see it as a painting. Same goes for hyperrealism and superrealism where it is exactly the excess of realism that makes it artificial.

I think this goes for recordings as well.

In conclusion, artificial sound doesn't have to have a natural counterpart in order for you to know what your speakers need to do, they just need to get as close as possible to the studio recording.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
And what you guys say about measurements and ears I agree with all of it. Being newer at this I have to rely heavily on measurements but as I get more experience and more exposure to different systems equipment and get to hear them I get more and more confident at getting the eq to get the bulk of it right in my listening environment and then doing the final tweaking by ear. Although I think I'm guilty of overadjusting my subs too much by ear. I'm a bassaholic and I like bass waaaaaaaay too much :)
I appreciate your support. Welcome to our forum. Hope you become a regular and share the knowledge with others going forward....
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't think that speakers should reincarnate an original instrument, I think they should reproduce the studio recording. I think the studio recording is the blueprint for hifi equipment, although, I would say that blueprint for the studio should be the original instrument.

Hence, no matter how artificial a sound may be, you still have a very clear goal and you know exactly what you need to achieve with your speakers, because you have the blueprint and it is the studio recording.

Much the same way, I'm not expecting my speakers to trick me into believing my favourite band is in my living room. I expect a representation and not presentation.

I think this goes for recordings as well.

In conclusion, artificial sound doesn't have to have a natural counterpart in order for you to know what your speakers need to do, they just need to get as close as possible to the studio recording.
I completely agree that a recording is reproduction but not about the goal of sounding the way it did in the studio. First, the chances of using the same electronics are slim, if not zero. Second, the layout of a typical control room isn't going to work as a living or listening room because they usually have near-field monitors on the mixing console, placed away from the walls. Third, the monitors used are often chosen because A) a large number of studios use them, B) they reveal flaws in the sound on tape or hard drive and C) the producer/engineer prefers them. Yamaha NS-10 have been used for a lot of recordings, but they are almost universally DISliked for their overall sound. They are, however, used almost everywhere and they DO reveal flaws better than most but their sound? Nothing I want to hear for any length of time. Fourth, the acoustics in a control room aren't designed to provide the same kind of sound as most listening rooms, although I'll admit that it sounds counter-intuitive. They don't want to hear the room, they want to hear the recorded sound- if they want more or less reverb, they'll adjust it.

Most recent recordings that we know (over the last 50 years) aren't a record of a single event- most are an assembly of separately recorded tracks that are tweaked and tweezed to sound a particular way when they're played along with the other tracks that were recorded at some point in time. It's more of a collage than anything else, but as we all know, they have built some pretty amazing collages. Some records have been recorded by a live band and there's a bit of a movement where this is more common, but a lot of music is being recorded in small studios, bedrooms, basements, etc- they couldn't fit a whole band in there without someone sitting on another person't lap.

Now, let's get to the term 'HiFi'. In theory, High Fidelity means it sounds similar to the original, which would be original instruments, not the studio. That said, being close to some instruments isn't particularly pleasant- a full drum set is a good example- the cymbals can be brutal and a screaming guitar can be incredibly loud, but the finished recording can sound great because we have been conditioned to think it sounds great. Opinions still differ, though. That's why so many speakers are available to us.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
I completely agree that a recording is reproduction but not about the goal of sounding the way it did in the studio. First, the chances of using the same electronics are slim, if not zero. Second, the layout of a typical control room isn't going to work as a living or listening room because they usually have near-field monitors on the mixing console, placed away from the walls. Third, the monitors used are often chosen because A) a large number of studios use them, B) they reveal flaws in the sound on tape or hard drive and C) the producer/engineer prefers them. Yamaha NS-10 have been used for a lot of recordings, but they are almost universally DISliked for their overall sound. They are, however, used almost everywhere and they DO reveal flaws better than most but their sound? Nothing I want to hear for any length of time. Fourth, the acoustics in a control room aren't designed to provide the same kind of sound as most listening rooms, although I'll admit that it sounds counter-intuitive. They don't want to hear the room, they want to hear the recorded sound- if they want more or less reverb, they'll adjust it.

Most recent recordings that we know (over the last 50 years) aren't a record of a single event- most are an assembly of separately recorded tracks that are tweaked and tweezed to sound a particular way when they're played along with the other tracks that were recorded at some point in time. It's more of a collage than anything else, but as we all know, they have built some pretty amazing collages. Some records have been recorded by a live band and there's a bit of a movement where this is more common, but a lot of music is being recorded in small studios, bedrooms, basements, etc- they couldn't fit a whole band in there without someone sitting on another person't lap.

Now, let's get to the term 'HiFi'. In theory, High Fidelity means it sounds similar to the original, which would be original instruments, not the studio. That said, being close to some instruments isn't particularly pleasant- a full drum set is a good example- the cymbals can be brutal and a screaming guitar can be incredibly loud, but the finished recording can sound great because we have been conditioned to think it sounds great. Opinions still differ, though. That's why so many speakers are available to us.
None of this makes much sense. You're just imposing your subjective views as universal, which I find tedious. No hard feelings.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
None of this makes much sense. You're just imposing your subjective views as universal, which I find tedious. No hard feelings.
My point is that there are so many variables it would be almost impossible for the sound of someone's system to be exactly the same as what was heard in the studio.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
My point is that there are so many variables it would be almost impossible for the sound of someone's system to be exactly the same as what was heard in the studio.
BUT the point of our hobby is to get as close as possible. :)

That's what makes it fun.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
BUT the point of our hobby is to get as close as possible. :)

That's what makes it fun.
OK, how do we find out what equipment was used in all of the studio control rooms where all of our music was recorded and mixed? How do we make our room changeable, so it will match the equipment? How do we know if it's close, or if it's just a matter of "I like the way it sounds" or "I enjoy the sound from this system/equipment more than what I had and what I have heard elsewhere".?

I think we all have, or have come to have an idea of what we like to hear but when different recordings are played, they do sound different- it can't only be due to the settings of the mixer and processors. I have some recordings that sound amazing, some are OK and some sound like crap. I even have one CD that has tracks using my amplifier, that were recorded when I was sitting behind the engineer in the studio. When I play it, it sounds a whole lot like my amp. It's one of the rare cases of being able to have a a piece of the equipment on the recording- if the monitors were the same as in the last location of the studio, it would have sounded different and I have another recording with my amp from that place- all of the tracks sound completely different. I didn't like the sound in that studio but the new one has monitors that are a lot more neutral.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
OK, how do we find out what equipment was used in all of the studio control rooms where all of our music was recorded and mixed? How do we make our room changeable, so it will match the equipment? How do we know if it's close, or if it's just a matter of "I like the way it sounds" or "I enjoy the sound from this system/equipment more than what I had and what I have heard elsewhere".?

I think we all have, or have come to have an idea of what we like to hear but when different recordings are played, they do sound different- it can't only be due to the settings of the mixer and processors. I have some recordings that sound amazing, some are OK and some sound like crap. I even have one CD that has tracks using my amplifier, that were recorded when I was sitting behind the engineer in the studio. When I play it, it sounds a whole lot like my amp. It's one of the rare cases of being able to have a a piece of the equipment on the recording- if the monitors were the same as in the last location of the studio, it would have sounded different and I have another recording with my amp from that place- all of the tracks sound completely different. I didn't like the sound in that studio but the new one has monitors that are a lot more neutral.
My point isn't that we need to try to mimic the environment in the studio, but to have a system that is transparent enough that we hopefully get as close to proper reproduction as possible. I'm speaking of good recordings, crap recordings are crap no matter what you play them on.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
I would just add to this that what we seek to reproduce is faithful to the recording. I would argue this isn't the studio or a live event. It's an artificial edifice created by the sound engineer and artist. With rare exception (live recordings or natural recordings such as with symphonies) most of what we listen to has nothing to do with the environment it was recorded in.

It's hard to know what that is supposed to sound like and I think to some extent this is why many prefer recordings of symphonies or even live concerts. At least you know what it should sound like. Since I like a wide range of music, some of which very artificial, I still seek for a faithful reproduction of the recording based on what I believe sounds good. There is no denying that some subjectivity exists in that, but then, it's my system.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I would just add to this that what we seek to reproduce is faithful to the recording. I would argue this isn't the studio or a live event. It's an artificial edifice created by the sound engineer and artist. With rare exception (live recordings or natural recordings such as with symphonies) most of what we listen to has nothing to do with the environment it was recorded in.

It's hard to know what that is supposed to sound like and I think to some extent this is why many prefer recordings of symphonies or even live concerts. At least you know what it should sound like. Since I like a wide range of music, some of which very artificial, I still seek for a faithful reproduction of the recording based on what I believe sounds good. There is no denying that some subjectivity exists in that, but then, it's my system.
Another snaggle is that what is on the recording is not always what the recording artist/sound engineer intended, due to shortcomings in their end, such as poor speakers, poor setup, or even hearing damage from the sound engineer. We would hope that the studio's equipment has a neutral response, but that is not always the case. This is why it pays to have a way to quickly and easily EQ the system, so iffy recordings can still be salvaged to sound good.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
Another snaggle is that what is on the recording is not always what the recording artist/sound engineer intended, due to shortcomings in their end, such as poor speakers, poor setup, or even hearing damage from the sound engineer. We would hope that the studio's equipment has a neutral response, but that is not always the case. This is why it pays to have a way to quickly and easily EQ the system, so iffy recordings can still be salvaged to sound good.
This is very true.

Some
Engineers are even well aware of this. I’ve noted over the years a lot of sound engineers in the forums talk about problems they mix around. They know their bass is wrong so they mentally compensate. I actually helped a guy out who did commercials in Chicago. He mixed the sound in his home and had invested good money in a home studio. Sound was bad so he mixed only on headphones and tried to mentally compensate for the problems that created.

Didn’t Toole once note that the worst performing speaker they ever measured and tested was a Urei monitor? If I have the story straight that is telling. That was one of the most revered monitors of all times, lots of studios had them and people listed for them in their homes. If they were also a problematic speaker with poor sound, think of the damage that did.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
This is very true.

Some
Engineers are even well aware of this. I’ve noted over the years a lot of sound engineers in the forums talk about problems they mix around. They know their bass is wrong so they mentally compensate. I actually helped a guy out who did commercials in Chicago. He mixed the sound in his home and had invested good money in a home studio. Sound was bad so he mixed only on headphones and tried to mentally compensate for the problems that created.

Didn’t Toole once note that the worst performing speaker they ever measured and tested was a Urei monitor? If I have the story straight that is telling. That was one of the most revered monitors of all times, lots of studios had them and people listed for them in their homes. If they were also a problematic speaker with poor sound, think of the damage that did.
Think of the damage the Yamaha NS10 has done! Millions of sound mixes!

Here is a paper with a lot of measurements of different studio monitors. Some of them are very good, but others... people made professional sound mixes with these things. Just goes to prove Toole's point about the circle of confusion. The THX PM3 standard should have been pushed a lot more, it would have addressed some of these shortcomings. It doesn't have an all-encompassing solution, but it's a hood start.
 
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