Funk Audio Line Array

[crossedover]

Can the bass drivers of the Funk Line Array be actively powered using the LFE output of the processor/AVR? .

That would kinda go against the principal behind the line array

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree that would be the best setup a tower with a subwoofer in the base, BUT, I have yet to see one that I liked, lol.. Most are week in the subwoofer dept... Polk lsi15 {I owned}, mirage om 5 {owned}, and I have heard others, nothing ever impressed me, I want a tower with a 400w subwoofer built into each one...

I am surprised no one makes an active set of towers, built in amp for the mids and highs and a built in amp for the lows, put a 12" driver on the bottom, a pair of 6.5's and a nice tweeter on top, have the left tower have an internal preamp so you just plug your sources into it, a power wire into it, and then a cable that has power for the right and signal cables for the right in 1 harness go over to the right speaker... Have a remote control and you just plug in your cd player, plug them into together, plug in power and play music, no more trial and error, plug and play... That would be way easier...

Most towers with so-called "built-in subs" don't really have built-in subs.

But some towers actually use true independent subwoofers as part of the bass cabinets.

One reason I don't like about the integration of electronics + speakers is the potential rate of failure. Digital electronics (amps, preamps, DSP, EQ) tend to have higher failure rates than speakers.

Another reason is cost. Speakers tend to cost a lot more when they have integrated preamps/amps/DSP/EQ vs using separated AVR + amps + speakers.

If the ext. amp or AVR fails, I don't have to worry about servicing the entire speaker that may weigh 200lbs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That would kinda go against the principal behind the line array

Couldn't the line array be just the tweeters and midrange?

The RBH T2 & T30 are shortened line array speakers. They have built-in subwoofers.

I guess a full line array speaker wouldn't be able to have built-in subwoofers?

 

[crossedover]

Couldn't the line array be just the tweeters and midrange?

The RBH T2 & T30 are shortened line array speakers. They have built-in subwoofers.

I guess a full line array speaker wouldn't be able to have built-in subwoofers?

Well most line arrays in home audio are just woofers and tweeters (2way). Line arrays need to be in a line so the RBH T2 & T30 are not. The length of the line determines the speakers capabilities. Most home line arrays require a subwoofer. From Funk website the benefits of an array:
· Provides higher power sound pressure levels (SPL)
· Reduces distortion as linear travel is dispersed among several drivers
· Enables higher power handling to be attained as the signal is shared by many drivers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Line arrays need to be in a line so the RBH T2 & T30 are not.

RBH Sound referred to the driver topology in the T-2P system a “truncated line array”. This system shared many of the virtues of a classic line array speaker, such as unparalleled dynamic range and seemingly infinite soundstage – characteristics responsible for producing the very lifelike sound for which these products are known.

A truncated line array is simply a shortened version of a traditional line array. A line array is defined as a group of omnidirectional radiating elements arrayed in a straight line. The physical size of the line array is large in relation to the wavelengths of the frequencies being produced. While the driver array of the T-30LSE is truncated (shortened), RBH prefers to refer to the alignment as a "dispersion averaging array". The array of drivers is aligned so the combination of the dispersion properties of the individual elements in the array produces a uniform average of the constructive and destructive interference between the elements.

http://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/rbh-t-30lse/t-30lse-introduction-design-overview

So I guess bottom line is, traditional line array speakers only have tweeters and midrange drivers, not big bad woofers. If they do have big bad woofers, then they would not be "traditional" line array; they would be "truncated" line array or some modifications.

 

[c2k]

RBH Sound referred to the driver topology in the T-2P system a “truncated line array”. This system shared many of the virtues of a classic line array speaker, such as unparalleled dynamic range and seemingly infinite soundstage – characteristics responsible for producing the very lifelike sound for which these products are known.

A truncated line array is simply a shortened version of a traditional line array. A line array is defined as a group of omnidirectional radiating elements arrayed in a straight line. The physical size of the line array is large in relation to the wavelengths of the frequencies being produced. While the driver array of the T-30LSE is truncated (shortened), RBH prefers to refer to the alignment as a "dispersion averaging array". The array of drivers is aligned so the combination of the dispersion properties of the individual elements in the array produces a uniform average of the constructive and destructive interference between the elements.

RBH T-30LSE Build Quality | Audioholics

So I guess bottom line is, traditional line array speakers only have tweeters and midrange drivers, not big bad woofers. If they do have big bad woofers, then they would not be "traditional" line array; they would be "truncated" line array or some modifications.

“Can the bass drivers of the Funk Line Array be actively powered using the LFE output of the processor/AVR?”

Yes technically but can your AVR Cross over that high with the right crossover? Probably not… You would also need the correct slope for the crossover.

“When people look at the RBH SX-T2 or T30 or SX-8300, they see just a tower speaker, not a bookshelf + a subwoofer. The bass/subwoofer drivers can be actively powered via ext. amp & LFE from the AVR. So the end result is that the subwoofer does not look like a subwoofer - it looks like a tower speaker.”

Yes, But the 2 are a very different design. (Yours Speaker & Mine)

“Couldn't the line array be just the tweeters and midrange?”

Yes, but is unnecessary and a waste of money, I have thought about the same design as well. I was thinking about a 3 way as well.

“One reason I don't like about the integration of electronics + speakers is the potential rate of failure. Digital electronics (amps, preamps, DSP, EQ) tend to have higher failure rates than speakers.”

As far as I know the failure rate on ALLDSP and the Amplification Modules are extremely low. They are used in studios and concerts are driven much harder than you would drive them. Properly designed and built equipment shouldn’t have those failure rates. But these are dependent on power supplies and various other things which I will not go into detail. But you can look at computers and specifically servers in general which actually have good PSUs. My computers are custom built by myself and my oldest components have lasted a almost a decade.

“Another reason is cost. Speakers tend to cost a lot more when they have integrated preamps/amps/DSP/EQ vs using separated AVR + amps + speakers.”

Yes, but there are also pluses to having a powerful Xover and Powerful DSP

“I guess a full line array speaker wouldn't be able to have built-in subwoofers?”

Nope I would have bass frequencies of about 50-60% of a Funk Audio 18.0 from the Line Array Alone if I remember correctly.

“So I guess bottom line is, traditional line array speakers only have tweeters and midrange drivers, not big bad woofers. If they do have big bad woofers, then they would not be "traditional" line array; they would be "truncated" line array or some modifications.”

I’m not sure about “traditional” but there are a lot of line arrays specifically targeted at concerts.

A longer Array would further increase sensitivity and lower distortion even further. It would also extend the frequency much further. Of course much of this has to be EQ’d to take full advantage of the drivers. It would single handedly outperform my Velodyne 15”. But I’m replacing that anyways.

Another thing is a Line Array does not have to be all omni directional radiating elements. Some line arrays use Ribbons or planars. In my case, planars, which has a narrow vertical dispersion which solves problems with comb filtering in higher frequencies in large line arrays. Since it runs floor to ceiling almost you would have no problems with vertical dispersion.

If my Line Array was passive, I would be worried.
The power handling on the woofer side is capable of handling 1000 watts +(1 side only) The tweeter I'm not sure, but I assume maybe around 30-70 x 12. I'm not sure if you want to that amount of power going though your crossover and part of it turning to heat. Depending on the design, 30% of the amplification power can be lost in passive crossovers. As the crossover components heat up, the performance of the speaker changes. So a movie may sound differently toward the end than it did in the beginning.

A longer array would result in a 3db drop per doubling of distance for a longer distance depending on frequency.

 

[ImcLoud]

You lost me at "yes technically" ...

 

[crossedover]

RBH Sound referred to the driver topology in the T-2P system a “truncated line array”. This system shared many of the virtues of a classic line array speaker, such as unparalleled dynamic range and seemingly infinite soundstage – characteristics responsible for producing the very lifelike sound for which these products are known.

A truncated line array is simply a shortened version of a traditional line array. A line array is defined as a group of omnidirectional radiating elements arrayed in a straight line. The physical size of the line array is large in relation to the wavelengths of the frequencies being produced. While the driver array of the T-30LSE is truncated (shortened), RBH prefers to refer to the alignment as a "dispersion averaging array". The array of drivers is aligned so the combination of the dispersion properties of the individual elements in the array produces a uniform average of the constructive and destructive interference between the elements.

RBH T-30LSE Build Quality | Audioholics

So I guess bottom line is, traditional line array speakers only have tweeters and midrange drivers, not big bad woofers. If they do have big bad woofers, then they would not be "traditional" line array; they would be "truncated" line array or some modifications.

Read up on them, then come back to discuss. Not every speaker system that your in love with is ideal with each individual situation. You have the ability to purchase more than most so maybe it's a good idea to understand each technology , as opposed to to being just a fan boy to your current favorite. Remember your DT compulsory posts?

 

[c2k]

Read up on them, then come back to discuss. Not every speaker system that your in love with is ideal with each individual situation. You have the ability to purchase more than most so maybe it's a good idea to understand each technology , as opposed to to being just a fan boy to your current favorite. Remember your DT compulsory posts?

I don't think he's really a fanboy. I know he likes the Funk Audio 6.1Ps quite a bit as well in another post in a review, and yes he had those physically at this place
At the below thread:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/89486-funk-audio-6-1p-monitors.html

Maybe he's just a bit excited still about his new toy

My goal in sound is to achieve the power of line array without the problems of poorly designed ones. Due to the requirement of numerous drivers required, drivers that are often picked may not actually meet performance goals or may sound "off" somewhere. Nathan is always looking for improvements and always makes interesting stuff that actually makes me drool no matter what it is... They all sound very good in the critical areas for what the product was designed for. Something I truly can call reference.

Below is a quote from the review of Acu's system the T2P:

"One area where the T-2P system defined itself was in its ability to provide a competently focused soundstage and excellent imaging characteristics, strengths that are NOT common in many large line array type speakers, especially those with wide front baffles like the T-2P system."

I would of liked to know which line array speakers he was referring to since Line arrays are not exactly a common speaker type to see everyday.

Anyways the kind of performance we want to reach is obviously insanely low distortion and raw accuracy while being able to go way above SPL I'm willing to listen to. That is if everything goes and performs. In general simulations get quite close to Funk Audio's plan I even told Nathan to get me an 18.2 Yes that's right. The best sealed subwoofer on the planet...And yes, I plan to get 2 at some point to make things symmetrical

http://www.funkaudio.ca/store/p9/Funk_Audio_Subwoofer_-_18.2_-_Power_Level_2.html

 

[herbu]

I love speaker discussions like this. The problem w/ high end speakers is that it is nearly impossible for the consumer to compare them. Your room is different than my room. How a speaker sounds to you is different than how it sounds to me. Maybe I'm prepared to spend the kind of money required for speakers in this discussion. I'm not prepared to order, (and pay for), two or three or four different sets at the same time, even if they all allow return for refund. And I'm not prepared to set up 3 different sets in my living room. And I'm not prepared to arrange accurate blind listening tests. Maybe I can find a place to hear a couple/few of the high end speakers, but not all.

So, truth be told, what do I do? I can read discussions like this, listen to what is available in my area, compare lab specs and try to decide if any differences are actually audible, then take a leap of faith. Once I take the leap, order some custom built speakers, pay as much as a car, wait months for delivery and finally receive and set up the beasts, I'm guessing there is a slim chance I will be less than thrilled!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Read up on them, then come back to discuss. Not every speaker system that your in love with is ideal with each individual situation. You have the ability to purchase more than most so maybe it's a good idea to understand each technology , as opposed to to being just a fan boy to your current favorite. Remember your DT compulsory posts?

Fan boy?

I'm no more a fan boy of RBH than Gene. I guess Gene is a fan boy too?

I have experienced many speakers. I enjoy many speakers. I've heard more good speakers than bad. I think most people would be very happy with most of the offerings available.

I always recommend to people to buy what sounds best to them regardless of reviews, measurements, and peer opinions.

And the RBH is not my "current" favorite. I love the sound of the RBH T2 BEFORE I even bought the Linkwitz Orion, Salon2, 802D2, 201/2, Phil3, etc. That was maybe 4 years ago. I didn't just hear the RBH yesterday.

Regarding my "DT compulsory posts", I still think the DT BP7000SC & BP7001SC sound great to my ears in my room.

My thought is that although the RBH T2/T30 may not be true line array speakers, they give me a little taste of it. And if that is any indication of what line array sounds like, I can only imagine how awesome the Funk Audio Line Array speakers would sound.

I ask questions about built-in subwoofers and external amplifications (I have nothing against active systems) because I am curious and that is my preference, not to bad mouth the Funk line array speaker or any other speaker.

And now I have learned that it is not practical to put built-in subs into true line array speakers. No harm done IMO.

However, I still would like to see external ACTIVE amplification option for the line array.

 

[c2k]

The problem w/ high end speakers is that it is nearly impossible for the consumer to compare them.

Yup, I ran into the same problem too but quickly learned good speakers will always sound better. I spent almost 100$ to drag a few friends on the fair here in Canada to get a demo at Nathans place for just 2-3 hours a few years back and then a 2nd time this year. It was worth it. You option is to get a demo with Nathan's 6.1P. Acu was very happy listening to them. Unfortunately it will cost you about 150 for an in home demo of the speaker. Here's the link for it:

Funk Audio - Blog

Do I think it will be worth it for you? I am 99% sure it will be. It may not seem special. But it really deserves to be listened to. Expect it to have the extension of a bookshelf speaker, but the kind of performance it gives for vocals and anything in it's frequency response range... I was very happy with it.

Your room is different than my room. How a speaker sounds to you is different than how it sounds to me.

Yes, you are absolutely right! But a real orchestra would always sound better right? A good pair of speakers will strive for a performance that will work even off axis which is what Funk Audio did. This was experienced in the Vancouver GTG with AVS and many loved the vocals. A speaker designed this way worked in both Nathan's wide and tall space and inside a cramped theater room. It was still a delight to listen too even off axis.

Maybe I can find a place to hear a couple/few of the high end speakers, but not all.

If you are prepared to spend that much, you probably should try the demo first. Most people would be very happy with the 8.2P with a Subwoofer. The 6.1P is very similar in terms of performance minus the frequency extension down low and power.

I'm guessing there is a slim chance I will be less than thrilled!

We all like to gamble but this is a less risky one
I can go on and on about Funk. But if you want subs, its pretty much set, I think you have been long enough here on Audioholics to find out
They are as advertised and ruthlessly accurate and responsive and yes, King of Subs although I do not understand why dynamics were only given a 4 star vs 5 maybe the guy wanted more output for the 18.0. The speaker - well designed to keep up. They are in a class of their own. You will have a speaker of rare performance that is not commonly seen in many hifi shops especially for the price.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I even told Nathan to get me an 18.2 Yes that's right. The best sealed subwoofer on the planet...And yes, I plan to get 2 at some point to make things symmetrical.

Funk Line Array + dual 18.2 subs would be crazy awesome.

Difficult to compete with that. If I'm playing poker against that kind of system, I would fold.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I love speaker discussions like this. The problem w/ high end speakers is that it is nearly impossible for the consumer to compare them. Your room is different than my room. How a speaker sounds to you is different than how it sounds to me. Maybe I'm prepared to spend the kind of money required for speakers in this discussion. I'm not prepared to order, (and pay for), two or three or four different sets at the same time, even if they all allow return for refund. And I'm not prepared to set up 3 different sets in my living room. And I'm not prepared to arrange accurate blind listening tests. Maybe I can find a place to hear a couple/few of the high end speakers, but not all.

So, truth be told, what do I do? I can read discussions like this, listen to what is available in my area, compare lab specs and try to decide if any differences are actually audible, then take a leap of faith. Once I take the leap, order some custom built speakers, pay as much as a car, wait months for delivery and finally receive and set up the beasts, I'm guessing there is a slim chance I will be less than thrilled!

We are talking about a lot of money.

Whether it is the Funk Audio Line Array, Revel Salon2, B&W 800D2, KEF Blade, Linkwitz Orion or other brands like RBH, Salk, Induction Dynamics, etc., you are always going to be taking a big risk.

Everyone has different needs. Each system has pros and cons. Decisions, decisions.

 

[c2k]

Fan boy?

I'm no more a fan boy of RBH than Gene. I guess Gene is a fan boy too?

I have experienced many speakers. I enjoy many speakers. I've heard more good speakers than bad. I think most people would be very happy with most of the offerings available.

I always recommend to people to buy what sounds best to them regardless of reviews, measurements, and peer opinions.

And the RBH is not my "current" favorite. I love the sound of the RBH T2 BEFORE I even bought the Linkwitz Orion, Salon2, 802D2, 201/2, Phil3, etc. That was maybe 4 years ago. I didn't just hear the RBH yesterday.

Regarding my "DT compulsory posts", I still think the DT BP7000SC & BP7001SC sound great to my ears in my room.

My thought is that although the RBH T2/T30 may not be true line array speakers, they give me a little taste of it. And if that is any indication of what line array sounds like, I can only imagine how awesome the Funk Audio Line Array speakers would sound.

I ask questions about built-in subwoofers and external amplifications (I have nothing against active systems) because I am curious and that is my preference, not to bad mouth the Funk line array speaker or any other speaker.

And now I have learned that it is not practical to put built-in subs into true line array speakers. No harm done IMO.

However, I still would like to see external ACTIVE amplification option for the line array.

I can see a few options that maybe possible for you.

1. Alldsp box or some sort of other crossover to another amp of your choice. You would need 2x2ch Amps

2. A crossover network that is capable of handling that kind of power. And you only need to use your own Amp

Nathan wouldn't have a problem configuring anything for you.

You can have anything you want Acu
Just let Nathan know what you want, As long as it isn't larger than his shop he can do it! He will probably throw in a few tid bits in terms of what would yield the greatest performance.

 

[funky waves]

We do have a four channel 500watts/ch with alldsp rack amp, a bit higher cost than the built in option(for a pair of two way speakers) but find a comparable quality amp with that much power and a 64bit DSP system for less than $2800.

And like c2K says we can do nearly anything you can imagine on a custom basis.

 

[c2k]

We are talking about a lot of money.

Whether it is the Funk Audio Line Array, Revel Salon2, B&W 800D2, KEF Blade, Linkwitz Orion or other brands like RBH, Salk, Induction Dynamics, etc., you are always going to be taking a big risk.

Everyone has different needs. Each system has pros and cons. Decisions, decisions.

Let me help you with your decision

[video=youtube;jmaHop1GuV4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmaHop1GuV4&list=UUnqy2i5mVNJnQ4ZSsN0e6EQ[/video]

 

[mwmkravchenko]

Who is that masked man?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Always enjoy these episodes. Was that s01e06?

 

[c2k]

Always enjoy these episodes. Was that s01e06?

Yup that is S01E06

I can't wait!!!!! Lalalalalalala

The Playlist is located here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnZQTuh8GHt1f7B-1KerAZMCl4-q2AJ7r