For the love of god or whoever … VOTE!

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highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I have a little bit of sympathy for Melania. While she may be a gold-digger (why else would she have married Trump?) and made some awful gaffs ("I Really Don't Care. Do You?"), she never sought the position she was thrust into. And, the criticism heaped on her over the last four years is out of proportion to any she may have earned.
"This was NOT in my job description!"?
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
I can't leave you guys for 5 min.!!
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Slovenia was never run over by any damn Soviets. You might mean Slovakia although even that is debatable. There is an ENTIRE republic of Hungary between these two countries.

After WWII, Slovenia was one of Yugoslavian federal republics. As it was more obvious which way Stalin is heading Yugoslavia grew more and more distant from SSSR. Up until that point Yugoslavia and SSSR had ties in the antifascist movement and Slovenia, so to speak, didn't have to be overrun by Soviets since it was thought that these countries will collaborate in rebuilding of Europe.

Since that didn't work, Yugoslavia parted ways with SSSR ultimately in 1958 by dismantling of Informbiro. And this is how the Non-Aligned Movement came to be lead by former Yugoslavia.
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GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I am no repressed puritan and if a president or first lady wants to bada bing bada boom with a consenting adult, so be it, it has no impact on policy. Donnie, Melania, Clinton or JFK can bang whoever they want if the other party is willing. But, extra marital banging can have consequences and they could end up in divorce court. It should not be a impeachable offense or anything of that sort.

So if Melania wanted to have gigolos on call because the orange lardass couldn't get it up, that's fine with me. But,. I also said earlier that i have nothing against that profession. I believe that prostitution should be completely legal and many vulnerable women who practice that profession every day should have safety and full protection of the law (there are many deviants out there who do terrible things to prostitutes and the women have very li't recourse)

Let's get to the topic of the USSR. What was the most diverse country that existed in the history of mankind? Ah yes, it was the Soviet Union (literally most of Asia).
Let's see, the entire West wanted it gone and ganged up against it. At some point, the sanctions against the USSR were so severe that almost 85% of the world economy was locked away from it. And still, that country managed to remain a superpower. If sanctions of that magnitude were implemented against a Brit in capitalist Britain, for instance, he would've eaten his dog outta hunger too. So this is the kool-aid history you were always told after the entire west ganged up with economics sanctions, embargoes, etc to make life as miserable as for the common Soviet citizen. And then, they told you it was all because of communism correct? mmhmm.

I am a old school aerospace engineer and i've known many a engineer, professer, etc who grew up in the Soviet Union. Yes, many were displaced, got jobs elsewhere in Europe, N.America etc and i got my scoop from very smart people who grew up there. In fact, when a people's referendum was given to Soviet citizens on whether they should break up or not, more than 80% of Soviet citizens voted to keep it intact. If their lives were so miserable because of communism, they wouldn't have done so, would they? IF you went to Russia now, life is miserable anywhere outside of a couple of major cities. Ask any old person there if life was better under the Soviet Union, they would say so and they would also tell your that Gorbachev was the ultimate traitor who broke up their country after he was bought by the West.

It is the victors of a war that always write history. The ones who lost the war don't get to write it. So, there will always be many factual inaccuracies in history books (primarily glorifying the victor and completely demonizing the side that lost).

I know for a fact that if the United States and the Soviets had become friends instead and cooperated in the sciences/tech/etc, a solution to most global problems (starvation, pollution, whatever) would have been achieved by now. They were highly educated and had some of the sharpest minds. It's a shame really.
I think your understanding of the USSR is a bit garbled. Its diversity was achieved through conquest and inherited from the old Russian Empire - not because Russia's neighbouring republics were clamoring to join it. And, if it was so great, why did most leave after the collapse of the communist regime?

The Soviet Union survived sanctions because of her vast natural resources - something Great Britain doesn't have. Life for the average person in Russia is worse than under the old regime is because it was succeeded by a cleptocracy with the country's assets ending up in the hands of oligarchs and not sold at market value, leaving a pittance in the treasury.

While cooperation and friendship between the Soviet Union and the West may have been desirable, with such diametrically opposed systems, it was never going to be in the cards.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I can't leave you guys for 5 min.!!View attachment 43877

Slovenia was never run over by any damn Soviets. You might mean Slovakia although even that is debatable. There is an ENTIRE republic of Hungary between these two countries.

After WWII, Slovenia was one of Yugoslavian federal republics. As it was more obvious which way Stalin is heading Yugoslavia grew more and more distant from SSSR. Up until that point Yugoslavia and SSSR had ties in the antifascist movement and Slovenia, so to speak, didn't have to be overrun by Soviets since it was thought that these countries will collaborate in rebuilding of Europe.

Since that didn't work, Yugoslavia parted ways with SSSR ultimately in 1958 by dismantling of Informbiro. And this is how the Non-Aligned Movement came to be lead by former Yugoslavia.
View attachment 43879
Slovenia was independent until Yalta, right? Then, if my education was correct (and I'm not assuming it was), it came under the umbrella of 'Communist Block', is that correct?

Thanks for the correction and sorry for the simplistic post.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Slovenia was independent until Yalta, right? Then, if my education was correct (and I'm not assuming it was), it came under the umbrella of 'Communist Block', is that correct?

Thanks for the correction and sorry for the simplistic post.
Slovenia after the WWII was just a part of Yugoslavia. Nothing happened to it independently of Yugoslavia. Until 1991. it was one republic in a federal state. Coming under someone's umbrella is not a regulated term. SSSR wanted Yugoslavia to be a part of SSSR, but for Yu it was either equal or not at all. It end up being not at all.

To keep it simple, it wasn't overrun by Soviets.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
BTW, Biden is sworn in, right? Doesn't that end this thread? ;)
 
pcosmic

pcosmic

Senior Audioholic
I think your understanding of the USSR is a bit garbled. Its diversity was achieved through conquest and inherited from the old Russian Empire - not because Russia's neighbouring republics were clamoring to join it. And, if it was so great, why did most leave after the collapse of the communist regime?

The Soviet Union survived sanctions because of her vast natural resources - something Great Britain doesn't have. Life for the average person in Russia is worse than under the old regime is because it was succeeded by a cleptocracy with the country's assets ending up in the hands of oligarchs and not sold at market value, leaving a pittance in the treasury.

While cooperation and friendship between the Soviet Union and the West may have been desirable, with such diametrically opposed systems, it was never going to be in the cards.
Were the Scotsmen clamoring to join the UK?
Were the Irish folk in Northern Ireland clamoring to join the UK?
Were the Tibetans clamoring to join China?
Were the native Americans clamoring to give up their land to Europeans?
Was Mexico clamoring to give up its 'acquired' land (now the states of Texas, California, New Mexico, etc) to the United States?
Every national border you see on earth these days was achieved through some form of conquest and i think your understanding of it is a bit garbled.

The Soviet Union with severe sanctions/embargoes through the entirety of its existence did ok. Without such economic sanctions/embargoes and the entire West trying to take it down, it would probably have done exceptionally well (perhaps like the US).

You sound so indoctrinated by this concept of "diametrically opposed" systems. What the hell is so "diametrically opposed" ? Regular folks live their regular lives everywhere on earth.

The capitalistic model (as you know it) is largely a scam propagated by a few to hoard as much wealth as possible. They own the lawmakers and they dictate that the laws be written to favor them. A few oligarchs with most of the country's assets squeeze the majority of the population and leave them dirt poor, the US will eventually get there. Most of the African countries, India, etc are already there (a very capitalistic model indeed). Russia's there now. That's the capitalist model for ya. Excess for a few, poverty for the rest.

The communist model tends to do something similar It's either the oligarchs who control everything or the communist state that controls everything. Take your pick. Neither one is better than the other.

And free market? Get outta here lol. Name me a free market in the US. There is none. They're all controlled markets.

The rest is all....Kool-aid in....kool-aid out
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Were the Scotsmen clamoring to join the UK?
Were the Irish folk in Northern Ireland clamoring to join the UK?
Were the Tibetans clamoring to join China?
Were the native Americans clamoring to give up their land to Europeans?
Was Mexico clamoring to give up its 'acquired' land (now the states of Texas, California, New Mexico, etc) to the United States?
Every national border you see on earth these days was achieved through some form of conquest and i think your understanding of it is a bit garbled.

The Soviet Union with severe sanctions/embargoes through the entirety of its existence did ok. Without such economic sanctions/embargoes and the entire West trying to take it down, it would probably have done exceptionally well (perhaps like the US).

You sound so indoctrinated by this concept of "diametrically opposed" systems. What the hell is so "diametrically opposed" ? Regular folks live their regular lives everywhere on earth.

The capitalistic model (as you know it) is largely a scam propagated by a few to hoard as much wealth as possible. They own the lawmakers and they dictate that the laws be written to favor them. A few oligarchs with most of the country's assets squeeze the majority of the population and leave them dirt poor, the US will eventually get there. Most of the African countries, India, etc are already there (a very capitalistic model indeed). Russia's there now. That's the capitalist model for ya. Excess for a few, poverty for the rest.

The communist model tends to do something similar It's either the oligarchs who control everything or the communist state that controls everything. Take your pick. Neither one is better than the other.

And free market? Get outta here lol. Name me a free market in the US. There is none. They're all controlled markets.

The rest is all....Kool-aid in....kool-aid out
You either missed my point, or are deliberately deflecting.

Let's get to the topic of the USSR. What was the most diverse country that existed in the history of mankind? Ah yes, it was the Soviet Union (literally most of Asia).
You made that statement as being praise-worthy. I just pointed out how it got that way and was not defending how those other countries you mentioned came about. So, we'll call that a straw man.

In fact, when a people's referendum was given to Soviet citizens on whether they should break up or not, more than 80% of Soviet citizens voted to keep it intact.
If any such study took place in the Soviet Union, it wouldn't have been anonymous, so what are most people going to say? They certainly voted with their feet when given the opportunity.

Indoctrinated, am I? I can assure you that I do not support unfettered capitalism. But, a regulated mixed economy is far more preferable to a collectivized economy. Stalin's man-made famine in the Ukraine ring any bells?

You sound like a true believer. Maybe you'd like to move to China? No, wait - they found communism didn't work either. So, the regime kept the part they liked - keeping power through totalitarian oppression and ditched the failed economic model. Of course, they didn't like the looks of a free market economy either and went with the mercantilist economy - private enterprise in the service of the state.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Stalin's man-made famine in the Ukraine ring any bells?
'Bout 11 million angels all getting their wings.

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pcosmic

pcosmic

Senior Audioholic
I have a friend who came here from Kiev and his customer base is largely Russian- the ones who left wanted a different system, the ones who wanted it to remain either had some kind of higher skill set/education level and benefited in ways the lower classes didn't. He went back for a vacation and said that he was very surprised- the people were a lot happier and much more helpful than when he lived there. Said the crime is still bad, but generally, it was much better.

I agree about the education, but that wasn't only in the former USSR- it was better (especially better than what the US is providing the majority of students now) from what I have seen, in all former Communist countries. My friend and I were talking about the sad state of US education and he told me that when he was there, the expectation wasn't that most students would go on to college, they would go to work and because they didn't want people without adequate education, they learned more by the time they left than many US schools teach in high school and rather than test in the way the US does (and teach for the tests), they went up to the front of the class for one on one exams with the teachers asking the questions- no notes, covering all subjects and they would do the work needed for Math & Physics/Chemistry, etc on the chalkboard. A woman who had a cell phone/tablet repair business in this same store had come from USSR and couldn't get a job in her degreed discipline- Mechanical Engineering. She said the reason she couldn't get a job is because the colleges wouldn't give her credit for the courses she had taken, regardless of the fact that she could demonstrate her knowledge and because of the fact that she couldn't get a diploma from a US-based college/university, she decided "Screw it- I'll start a business".

They aren't the only ones I know who came from Communist countries- in freshman high school Algebra, the kid next to me had come to the US from Prague in '69- he and his brother were freaking brilliant, too. They were clearly not fans of the Communist regime- we had a Q&A session and after someone asked about life in Prague, he sneered and said "We didn't live, we existed". The school wouldn't let him test out of this class, apparently because they thought his education was inferior to what he would have received here, but he toughed it out and finally convinced them to find out what he knew. When they saw the results, they sheepishly said "We're sorry, we have nothing for you , here". He finished his Math & Science classes at Marquette University and tutored or did independent study at our school.

As usual, it's not the people who don't get along, it's the governments. While the Cold War was the biggest waste in history, it also brought some amazing technical advances. We wouldn't be communicating now with the same ease, if DARPA hadn't developed IT. It would have come along but maybe not when it did.

I'm under no illusions about how wrong we and much of the rest of the World has been- as you wrote, we should have cooperated instead of fighting- if we had, we wouldn't have a single empty stomach. I do, however, think that if everyone received the same from governments, I doubt we would have seen the advances that have come from people with better ideas but I don't like rampant greed, either.

WRT the moral lapses of Presidents, etc- I think that people who act like they're on a high moral plane should demonstrate it. I would prefer that they not do this in office- let them do it on their own time.

Can you say where you worked, or did you have security agreements that prevent it?
Since communism is such a terrifying word in the common US vocabulary, many displaced individuals/immigrants from communist countries will downplay anything good they had under their former system of government and claim life is just brilliant under the new form of government. It can be out of fear, the need to assimilate, etc. But, i'm a fairly chatty old man ;). If i have enough drinks and play enough tunes to folks, they tend to open up about their lives. In fact, one of my long time friends is a professor who immigrated from the soviet union after it broke up (he was my PhD advisor).

Back in the days, you really couldn't find many books (higher level engg) written by non-Soviet authors in the aerospace field. Unless you stared at it for 15 hour a day, it could all look like Egyptian hieroglyphics. You couldn't just write books like that without a serious noodle in your head and the educational infrastructure to support you. They were also quite advanced in medicine, etc..(not to mention their accomplishments in the arts, music, ballet, whatever). It looked to me that their people were simply giving their best effort for their country just like we did for our country.

It's just a shame that the governments couldn't be amicable to each other and collaborate to solve global problems.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Field Marshall
Since communism is such a terrifying word in the common US vocabulary, many displaced individuals/immigrants from communist countries will downplay anything good they had under their former system of government and claim life is just brilliant under the new form of government. It can be out of fear, the need to assimilate, etc. But, i'm a fairly chatty old man ;). If i have enough drinks and play enough tunes to folks, they tend to open up about their lives. In fact, one of my long time friends is a professor who immigrated from the soviet union after it broke up (he was my PhD advisor).

Back in the days, you really couldn't find many books (higher level engg) written by non-Soviet authors in the aerospace field. Unless you stared at it for 15 hour a day, it could all look like Egyptian hieroglyphics. You couldn't just write books like that without a serious noodle in your head and the educational infrastructure to support you. They were also quite advanced in medicine, etc..(not to mention their accomplishments in the arts, music, ballet, whatever). It looked to me that their people were simply giving their best effort for their country just like we did for our country.

It's just a shame that the governments couldn't be amicable to each other and collaborate to solve global problems.
Communism is a mass-murderous and anti-democratic ideology, when in power. I'm a Norwegian of middle age that experienced that awful existential nuclear threat from the Soviet Union when I grew up. But here you are extolling the scientific qualifications of the Soviet researchers (only a moron says otherwise about the qualifications) and plead for cooperation, but Nazi Germany had excellent researches as well! What a slippery slope you are on.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Field Marshall
OOooo,,,you are a Norwegian who experienced a existential nuclear threat from the Soviet Union eh? Oooo,,,.we never heard of it or experienced any of it here in America! whoopdidoo If i remember right, I've been on a coupla ships with Soviet/Russian subs swarming all around ready to smoke us any second.....Every other Soviet kid was was real scared too i bet...that we were gonna smoke em any second...Oooo But, we got one scared Norwegian making a point apparently!

Setting your goddamn differences aside, learning to get along, cooperating and solving problems in a fcking common sense based idea.

But, the direction some of ya fckwits are headed, i fear that the children and the grandchildren will have increasingly miserable lives starting with the climate catastrophe headed their way and a whole host of other problems. You'll be starting another war with the Chinese soon too,....And no, you won't be dying from a nuke, i promise you, but you very well could die because of biological warfare or a few other things. Or even worse, the future generations could get debilitated by the effects of some of the stuff out there....on this warmongering path

There is no winning any future wars ok? Learn to get along. One can start with acknowledging atleast a few positive things others have done whom you are ideologically opposed to(whom you inevitably share a planet with). That would be a start to trying to get along. There is no planet B to run off to and escape.
This is just f*cking dumb.
 
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