Dream Speakers Under $6,000 Retail

[cschang]

DenPureSound,

Are there no shops around you where you can listen to ANY speakers?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Eagles "Hotel California", Five For Fighting "Superman", Eva Cassidy "Time After Time" are 3 examples.

Classic Rock, Pop, Alternative, classical, jazz.

I don't care for Heavy Metal, Rap, or Country.

 

[PENG]

Isn't the midrange the most important part of any speaker when it comes to music?

When I auditioned the Studio 100 v3 & B&W 800Ds, I thought the midrange was not very clear. Both the DefTech BP7000 & RBH T2/P had clearer midrange.

This sort of thing is subjective. For example, you and I seem to have diagonally opposite experience more often than not. DT sounds good to you but not to me. B&W diamonds sound bad to you but excellent to me. KEF ref series sound good to both of us. Infinity P362 sounds good to you but not so good to me except for listening to jazz and light rocks. I also suspect what sounds slightly bright or harsh to Nuance could sound live like and detailed/analytical to me and if that's the case it will be fine because I find live (unamplified) concerts also sound just like that to me. So yes it is important for us to do our own auditioning, find the speakers we like and then use specs and reviews (almost=hearsays) as tie breakers. It is so much easier to shop for amps. Relative to speakers, they really do sound pretty much the same once you get past the entry level stuff.

 

[psbfan9]

Today I'm going to listen to NHT, Monitor Audio, and Energy. They also carry Episode and Sunfire subs.

I also found this...

Discontinued Home Products Closeout | High End Speakers | Reviews | Prices

I was only able to listen to the Monitor Audio Silver RX8.

RX8 | Silver RX | Monitor Audio

I thought it was okay. The bass was pretty good, it wasn't bright, and it got loud. I came home and listened to my Definitive Technology SM 450's at the same volume as the R8's, and think they are just as good if not better.
So, in my not so eloquent way, I'm saying the Monitor Audio RX8's are NOT my dream speaker.

Is 'reference level' just a posh way of saying loud?

 

[Nuance AH]

This sort of thing is subjective. For example, you and I seem to have diagonally opposite experience more often than not. DT sounds good to you but not to me. B&W diamonds sound bad to you but excellent to me. KEF ref series sound good to both of us. Infinity P362 sounds good to you but not so good to me except for listening to jazz and light rocks. I also suspect what sounds slightly bright or harsh to Nuance could sound live like and detailed/analytical to me and if that's the case it will be fine because I find live (unamplified) concerts also sound just like that to me. So yes it is important for us to do our own auditioning, find the speakers we like and then use specs and reviews (almost=hearsays) as tie breakers. It is so much easier to shop for amps. Relative to speakers, they really do sound pretty much the same once you get past the entry level stuff.

Well said.

Concerning live music, some things are suppose to sound bright, just as certain instruments should have a distinct metallic sound. It's when the things that shouldn't sound bright start sounding bright that a red flag goes up for me (this happened with the Sigs). Also, if metallic instruments don't sound as such (like when a flute sounds wooden), that's another thing I take issue with. I like what I like, but you may not, and that's totally cool. As long as we're happy, who cares?

I was only able to listen to the Monitor Audio Silver RX8.

RX8 | Silver RX | Monitor Audio

I thought it was okay. The bass was pretty good, it wasn't bright, and it got loud. I came home and listened to my Definitive Technology SM 450's at the same volume as the R8's, and think they are just as good if not better.
So, in my not so eloquent way, I'm saying the Monitor Audio RX8's are NOT my dream speaker.

Is 'reference level' just a posh way of saying loud?

Thanks for sharing your experience; it's very important to listen and make comparisons like you're doing. So the MA's are off the list and your DT's still remain...what's next?

Reference level generally means listening at the level the movie or music was mixed at (the intended listening level). For movies, this can get loud (00 on the receiver). For music, it all depends on the recording. Steve Callas from HT Shack summed it up well, so I'll quote him:

"85db is actually reference level, and in order to have a reference capable system, you need 20db dynamic headroom from each channel. 75db is what some discs or receivers have you calibrate to using their test tones simply because 10db less is easier to withstand during calibration. The LFE channel is 10db louder, so reference is 95db with the need to be able to handle 115db.

So to sum it up, if you are designing new speakers, the capability you need is for them to reach 105db across their intended range at your seat and the subwoofer 115db. If you cross the speakers over at 80hz, then the subwoofer system actually needs to be able to do ~118db."

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This sort of thing is subjective. For example, you and I seem to have diagonally opposite experience more often than not. DT sounds good to you but not to me. B&W diamonds sound bad to you but excellent to me. KEF ref series sound good to both of us.

Yeah. You are probably right. But here is my rebuttal (we're in debate class)

Initially both Nuance & Warpdrv thought the S8v3 sounded great.

But after comparing the S8 to the Salk speakers, both thought the Salks sounded better. Now, to both of them, the S8 is no longer as great a speaker it once was.

Relativity. Thus it is very important to compare as many different speakers as possible.

It may be that after you've compared all the different speaker, you still love the sound of the S8.

But aren't you concerned at all that both Warpdrv & Nuance changed their minds after comparing to the Salk?

 

[TLS Guy]

How much more are the Seas compared to the Peerless 10" XLS?

The Peerless is $194.29 and the SEAS is $353.70.

However these Seas drivers though excellent, are very hard to use. So their is a lot of difficulty and expense to get them to perform optimally.

The SEAS 10" is particularly troublesome and in my view absolutely demands an active crossover for optimal results, unless you want to confine them to the region below 100 Hz.

Getting optimal results from this driver was perhaps my biggest challenge and was to some extent a work in progress until about 18 months ago.

I have watched this thread with interest.

I guess I'm lucky as I have my dream speakers.

I have heard quite a few very expensive speaker systems in the recent past.

I'm now convinced that speakers systems are to an extent akin to pipe organs, and have to be designed integral to their space and require voicing to their environment for really first class results.

The very best speakers I have heard have all been custom.

 

[DS-21]

Is that what we're talking about? I thought we were talking about dream loudspeakers.

The loudspeaker and room are a system, so to consider one without giving the other due consideration is just mental masturbation.

I know 90 degree patterns are most practical, but most practical =/= best sounding

I don't see why a 90deg pattern is more practical to design/build than a 120deg pattern, or for that matter a 60deg pattern.

But if you mean "practical" in the sense of "works near optimally in most rooms," then certainly that has a large bearing on sound quality!

Also, about the Harman research, I don't believe they actually included a speaker with consistent narrower directivity in the study you mention, so it really says nothing about narrower patterns one way or another. Though one interesting thing to come out of Harman's work is that holes in the off-axis response are relatively benign. The nasty mushroom clouds of midrange energy one typically sees in "high end" speakers due to a narrowing driver crossing over to a tweeter on 180deg waveguide, however, are not.

EQ'd for flat sound power =/= flat sound power + flat response
EQ'd for flat sound power == rising response because all practical drivers have a rising DI.

If it's for all intents and purposes impracticable to have flat sound power, then, well, who cares?

But point of fact, if you listen to some speakers with well-controlled patterns (including omni!) EQ'ed for flat sound power, they will sound shrill and generally awful. I've tried it, but from your writings I take it you haven't.

 

[PENG]

It's when the things that shouldn't sound bright start sounding bright that a red flag goes up for me (this happened with the Sigs).

I fully agree with what you are saying and I am quite familiar with how each intrument sounds as well. I have been to a few live concert (classical) recently and each time I came home I would immediately listen to my Veritas 2.3i when my memory is hopefully still reliable enough. I really have no idea why we all seem to hear differently even when we listen to the same thing.

Before the last major upgrade to my system I would have trouble listening to it for long right after a live concert, but now I have no issue at all. So sometimes I wonder why I should bother searching for that dream speaker. I thought my Veritas was only about 4 to 5 years old but when I checked the date of the invoice it is actually 7 years old. Time flies, and time to upgrade regardless.

Again, what made you include the S8 in your top 5 list if you thought the mid range driver was weak?

 

[PENG]

Yeah. You are probably right. But here is my rebuttal (we're in debate class)

Initially both Nuance & Warpdrv thought the S8v3 sounded great.

But after comparing the S8 to the Salk speakers, both thought the Salks sounded better. Now, to both of them, the S8 is no longer as great a speaker it once was.

Relativity. Thus it is very important to compare as many different speakers as possible.

It may be that after you've compared all the different speaker, you still love the sound of the S8.

But aren't you concerned at all that both Warpdrv & Nuance changed their minds after comparing to the Salk?

Yes I am concerned with the fact that Warp changed his mind. I didn't know Nuance changed his until now because in his very recent response to DPS he had the Digm in his top 5 list. However, you must have also seen many user reviews as well as professional reviews that rated the S6 and S8 highly. In fact more than one reviewer talked about comparing the S to much more expensive speakers including the Salon2 and the B&W 800's (ok to you that don't count but still). To debate this further, so what if Nuance and Warp changed their minds again, they did so once, or twice, so who knows.

Sorry for repeating but I still think going with specs/with full complement of graphs and known facts/backgrounds about the manufacturer is a more reliable way for me to narrow down my choices. Then I must focus on comparing what I hear from the speakers to that I hear in live concerts. I also value everyone's inputs. In fact I love to hear more from them and from you especially Nuance because this guy has actually spent a lot of energy researching, listening and taking presumably meticulous notes. I still hope he could find his notes on those sexy looking 1028 Be's. That being said, at the end of the day I must sum up all the information and draw a logical/sensible conclusion on my own.

Now, how come we both like the KEF's? To me they sound quite like those dreaded diamond series.

 

[GranteedEV]

Now, how come we both like the KEF's? To me they sound quite like those dreaded diamond series.

The B&Ws are still voiced to sound correct in... a specific room. So in the right room i don't see why they wouldn't sound great. It's just that they'll sound different in other rooms. I suspect the Aperions and EMPs are mostly in this boat, as well as some of the Salks. And of course each speaker's sensitivity to the room varies - not cut and dry.

the KEFs / Pioneer EXs / Salk Soundscape / Revels / Philharmonics / Geddes / Genelecs should reasonably maintain their sound signature across different rooms. Not only sound signature, but perception of clarity with respect to intensity and response of reflections, toe in, and sweet spot.

So who knows... in the same room/seat you've heard the B&Ws in... ADTG might have liked them! In the same ones he heard them in, you might have hated them.

It's not just about getting some 2" panels to tame a tweeter... it's about the entire room / speaker interaction. Like TLS Guy pointes out - the best systems are ones where the room and speaker are in tune with each other. Speakers with smooth off axis like the Pioneer EX (hint hint hint hint) make that aspect easier. Speakers with very narrow directivity, like the geddes ones, reduce the room's impact. speakers with very wide directivity like the Linkwitz Pluto, illuminate the room more aggressively which can be a bad thing bit also a good thing if the room is correct for a job. So to simulatenously respond to accusation of mental masturbation - no, that ain't the point. The point is to find a speaker / room combination that works. If starting from scratch - why not?

If you look at the documentation for Pluto its placement requirements are very unique. not just 'put against wall and enjoy'. So i agree it ain't practical but that doesn't mean it can't be someone else's dream speaker. My approach would be to analyze every situation individually. Speakers without EXCELLENT off axis response need not apply-whether it's wide, or narrow pattern. Then audition them for yourself. If something's off, would EQ correct it... or not?

 

[Nuance AH]

Yeah. You are probably right. But here is my rebuttal (we're in debate class)

Initially both Nuance & Warpdrv thought the S8v3 sounded great.

But after comparing the S8 to the Salk speakers, both thought the Salks sounded better. Now, to both of them, the S8 is no longer as great a speaker it once was.

Relativity. Thus it is very important to compare as many different speakers as possible.

It may be that after you've compared all the different speaker, you still love the sound of the S8.

But aren't you concerned at all that both Warpdrv & Nuance changed their minds after comparing to the Salk?

Haha - we're just two guys, so don't take our experiences as fact. You bring up a very important point, though (two actually): something might sound amazing, that is until you hear something better. This is why listening to everything you can and making those comparisons is so important (your second point). We may never know what's out there until we attempt to look for it/listen.

I'm now convinced that speakers systems are to an extent akin to pipe organs, and have to be designed integral to their space and require voicing to their environment for really first class results.

Bingo - you just hit the nail on the head, not that I'm aware of anyway.

I fully agree with what you are saying and I am quite familiar with how each intrument sounds as well. I have been to a few live concert (classical) recently and each time I came home I would immediately listen to my Veritas 2.3i when my memory is hopefully still reliable enough. I really have no idea why we all seem to hear differently even when we listen to the same thing.

Before the last major upgrade to my system I would have trouble listening to it for long right after a live concert, but now I have no issue at all. So sometimes I wonder why I should bother searching for that dream speaker. I thought my Veritas was only about 4 to 5 years old but when I checked the date of the invoice it is actually 7 years old. Time flies, and time to upgrade regardless.

Again, what made you include the S8 in your top 5 list if you thought the mid range driver was weak?

I didn't include the Sig 8 in my top 5. My top five would likely be:

Vandersteen Model 7/5
Dynaudio Confidence C4 II's
Salk SoundScape 12's
Revel Ultima Salon 2
Linkwitz Orion.

I haven't heard the Kef's that ADTG owns, so that list could change at any moment. I would also need to hear all of them in the same room, using the same equipment to really lock in that specific preference order.

Speaking of rooms, I don't think we hear all that differently, but rather the room is at play. Each of our rooms are different, and each of the rooms we've likely audition speakers in is different. It's almost like comparing apples to oranges, as the room can effect the sound more than the speaker or any up-stream equipment (provided it isn't flawed).

Listening to your system after a live concert is a great idea, though my ears are usually a bit fatigued by then. It's a good thing the drive home is 90 minutes.

Yes I am concerned with the fact that Warp changed his mind. I didn't know Nuance changed his until now because in his very recent response to DPS he had the Digm in his top 5 list. However, you must have also seen many user reviews as well as professional reviews that rated the S6 and S8 highly. In fact more than one reviewer talked about comparing the S to much more expensive speakers including the Salon2 and the B&W 800's (ok to you that don't count but still). To debate this further, so what if Nuance and Warp changed their minds again, they did so once, or twice, so who knows.

Sorry for repeating but I still think going with specs/with full complement of graphs and known facts/backgrounds about the manufacturer is a more reliable way for me to narrow down my choices. Then I must focus on comparing what I hear from the speakers to that I hear in live concerts. I also value everyone's inputs. In fact I love to hear more from them and from you especially Nuance because this guy has actually spent a lot of energy researching, listening and taking presumably meticulous notes. I still hope he could find his notes on those sexy looking 1028 Be's. That being said, at the end of the day I must sum up all the information and draw a logical/sensible conclusion on my own.

Now, how come we both like the KEF's? To me they sound quite like those dreaded diamond series.

Please show me where I said the Sig 8's were in my top five. If I did say that, it was a mistake and I need to fix it. I'm so confused why I would have said that...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

To debate this further, so what if Nuance and Warp changed their minds again, they did so once, or twice, so who knows.

Then my witnesses have lost credibility, & I would lose my case.

I still think going with specs/with full complement of graphs and known facts/backgrounds about the manufacturer is a more reliable way for me to narrow down my choices. Then I must focus on comparing what I hear from the speakers to that I hear in live concerts. I also value everyone's inputs. In fact I love to hear more from them and from you especially Nuance because this guy has actually spent a lot of energy researching, listening and taking presumably meticulous notes. I still hope he could find his notes on those sexy looking 1028 Be's. That being said, at the end of the day I must sum up all the information and draw a logical/sensible conclusion on my own.

I agree. I think most of us agree also. Look at measurements & audition the ones with great measurements.

This is why I would not even touch the JTR speakers since there are no published 3rd party measurements, and JTR cannot furnish any speaker measurements of their own.

You won't see AJinFL selling his Soundfield speakers without providing the on-axis & off-axis measurements! Same with Philharmonic, Salk, & Ascend.

Now, how come we both like the KEF's? To me they sound quite like those dreaded diamond series.

Like TLS Guy, GranteedEV, & Nuance say, the rooms could be the culprit. I did audition the 800D twice in 2 completely different rooms. It's still possible that both rooms did not match well with the speakers.

As GranteedEV says, perhaps the KEF have a much better chance of sounding great in more variety of rooms than the B&W and Paradigm.

So my rebuttal is this. What if the S6 sound great in the dealer's room because they match well there, but end up sounding mediocre in your room because they don't match well with your room?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

KEFs / Pioneer EXs / Salk Soundscape / Revels / Philharmonics / Geddes / Genelecs should reasonably maintain their sound signature across different rooms. Not only sound signature, but perception of clarity with respect to intensity and response of reflections, toe in, and sweet spot.

So who knows... in the same room/seat you've heard the B&Ws in... ADTG might have liked them! In the same ones he heard them in, you might have hated them.

This is precisely the reason I auditioned the 800D twice. I'm willing to audition them again as well in a different room.

I know AJinFL would say I'm insane for doing that since he probably thinks the B&W will sound mediocre in every room.

 

[lsiberian]

This is precisely the reason I auditioned the 800D twice. I'm willing to audition them again as well in a different room.

I know AJinFL would say I'm insane for doing that since he probably thinks the B&W will sound mediocre in every room.

They are very well built and designed consumer speakers. Mediocre isn't in the conversation IMO. Certainly they might not sound as good as a Salk, but that by no means makes them bad or mediocre. To say that is audio snobbery.

TLS is right in saying that speakers are best designed for their room.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

They are very well built and designed consumer speakers. Mediocre isn't in the conversation IMO. Certainly they might not sound as good as a Salk, but that by no means makes them bad or mediocre. To say that is audio snobbery.

Well built? I can agree with. Lack of resonance in cabinet proves it.

Well designed? That is up for discussion. If they are well design, then why do the P362 have better on-axis and off-axis responses?

Audio snobbery? I think that applies if we are favoring a much more expensive speaker to a much cheaper speaker. Like those darn rich snobs. But this is the opposite. No, my friend. It may be other things, but I think snobbery is not accurate description.

 

[Alex2507]

then why do the P362 have better on-axis and off-axis responses?

My guess is that it is because you are comparing the speakers within the limits of the Infinities and not the B&W's. The right tool for the right job always works best. For instance blind people in small rooms that only ever want to listen at ~ 80db average need look no further than the Primuses.

 

[lsiberian]

My guess is that it is because you are comparing the speakers within the limits of the Infinities and not the B&W's. The right tool for the right job always works best. For instance blind people in small rooms that only ever want to listen at ~ 80db average need look no further than the Primuses.

But seeing eye dogs in big rooms need those B&Ws

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My guess is that it is because you are comparing the speakers within the limits of the Infinities and not the B&W's. The right tool for the right job always works best. For instance blind people in small rooms that only ever want to listen at ~ 80db average need look no further than the Primuses.

Are you implying that in a double-blinded test, people may like the P362 better than the 800D. Now that's just cruel and hurtful!

 

[Alex2507]

Are you implying that in a double-blinded test, people may like the P362 better than the 800D. Now that's just cruel and hurtful!

I think it was the 802 something or other that that was established with but again I stress 'at a comfortable listening level'. About the loudest thing I ever heard was some Sig 8's backed up with an Epik Empire. It was glorious. It felt like I was in the speaker. In car analogy terms that was the space shuttle.