Dream Speakers Under $6,000 Retail

[lsiberian]

Here is the Stereophile measurements of the ATC SCM 11:
ATC SCM 11 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

Some discontinuity in the impedance plot, some resonance in the cabinet, appears +/- 3dB on-axis, pretty decent horizontal off-axis, but vertical off-axis looks bad.

Would you guys say this speaker measures great?

That is a very good measurement and very telling. Cabinet resonance appears very good down to -20db. I'm not sure what your seeing to indicate cabinet resonance. If anything off-axis appears to be it's primary weakness which is no surprising given it's a monitor.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

With exactly 6k to spend I myself would be looking at the Geddes Abbeys for medium/larger rooms. However these would require subs so that could blow the budget.

I would be looking at the Genelec 8260A for nearfield.

I'd be looking at the Pioneer S1-EX as well, but I would be inclined to stuff the vent and add subs which would blow the budget. Them KEF R900s look purty too.

The Philharmonics would somehow squeeze their way in there too. Can't forget Warpdrv's SS Monitor 7s though I don't know if they'd work in a medium/large room.

...So finally.. after considering all the sweet box speakers with high end drivers and nice aesthetics, I would pick AJ in FLA's wierd open baffle speakers.. and pocket the rest of the money to spend on something else. Like Marantz Reference amps and Kimber Cable. Now wouldn`t that make AJ feel good?



As ADTG would say...

....R I I I I I I G H T

R--------------I-----------------G------------------H---------------------T

Kimber Kable looks girly - like they will snap off and scream like a girl if you pull just a little too hard. I used to own some KK speaker wires and interconnects.

Marantz Reference - not that is manly.

I know I didn't mention this since it's 100% subjective, but I bet aesthetics play a huge factor in "dream" speakers. Gotta be dreamy and all.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That is a very good measurement and very telling. Cabinet resonance appears very good down to -20db. I'm not sure what your seeing to indicate cabinet resonance. If anything off-axis appears to be it's primary weakness which is no surprising given it's a monitor.

John Atkinson wrote:

"an investigation of the enclosure panels' vibrational behavior with an accelerometer did uncover two fairly strong resonant modes on the sidewall in this region (fig.2)."

 

[alphaiii]

That is a very good measurement and very telling. Cabinet resonance appears very good down to -20db. I'm not sure what your seeing to indicate cabinet resonance. If anything off-axis appears to be it's primary weakness which is no surprising given it's a monitor.

CSD plot with accelerometer on the cabinet:

 

[alphaiii]

Kevlar looked like it was going to run away with the ball game 8 or 9 years back. But paper in various formulations has staged a comeback, and I'm not sure Kevlar has any inherent superiority to other well-engineered cone material. The problem with Kevlar is is that it usually displays a prominent and not all that neat breakup in the highs. A good crossover can deal with this, but some companies that use Kevlar don't go to the trouble, or cross too high, at least in their less expensive models. I won't name any names.

I know it will vary with particular drivers, but if looking at speakers that use Kevlar mids/woofers... where would one generally want the xover point to be to avoid the cone breakup?

 

[its phillip]

Both looks the same Perhaps they don't have a picture of the other side.

Also, there may be an error on their spec sheet? 93dB max spl????

Yes, bhphotovideo has it posted incorrectly. 93db is their sensitivity at 2.83V/1m.

JBL :: Product

 

[lsiberian]

John Atkinson wrote:

"an investigation of the enclosure panels' vibrational behavior with an accelerometer did uncover two fairly strong resonant modes on the sidewall in this region (fig.2)."

CSD plot with accelerometer on the cabinet:

Those don't really trouble me because they are so narrow and so low in frequency. The graph is actually pretty good.

 

[GranteedEV]

I know you and GranteedEV love this Pioneer. It has smooth awesome horizontal polar response and vertical off-axis. The on-axis from the important 200Hz-10kHz is pretty nice around +/-2dB.

But anyone question the -8dB drop @ 14kHz or +4dB @ 11kHz or +5dB @100Hz? I mean we are talking "dream" speakers here.

The 100hz looks like a measurement artifact.
The behaviour above 10khz clears up off axis - note the normalized polars look odd but they actually 'cancel out' the on axis behavior resulting in smooth flat response off axis. Round waveguides like the coax will have this effect. The LEF 201s behave similarily.

 

[cschang]

I know you and GranteedEV love this Pioneer. It has smooth awesome horizontal polar response and vertical off-axis. The on-axis from the important 200Hz-10kHz is pretty nice around +/-2dB.

But anyone question the -8dB drop @ 14kHz or +4dB @ 11kHz or +5dB @100Hz? I mean we are talking "dream" speakers here.

The issues at 14khz and 11khz, I can't answer. It seems Atkinson was not concerned with them, and GranteedAV has covered it above.

The rise at 100hz is due to how Stereophile measures and splices in bass response. Their write up on how they measure speakers explains this.

 

[DenPureSound]

Kevlar looked like it was going to run away with the ball game 8 or 9 years back. But paper in various formulations has staged a comeback, and I'm not sure Kevlar has any inherent superiority to other well-engineered cone material. The problem with Kevlar is is that it usually displays a prominent and not all that neat breakup in the highs. A good crossover can deal with this, but some companies that use Kevlar don't go to the trouble, or cross too high, at least in their less expensive models. I won't name any names.

The Aperion VGT's cross over off of the Kevlar 5" midrange drivers over to the ASR Tweeter at 1.8kHz. Maybe that is their one little secret crossing over to the tweeter way down at 1.8kHz., instead of many that cross over at 3kHz.

 

[DenPureSound]

Aperion Verus Grand Towers - FR and Imp/Phase Plots

The Aperion Verus Grand Towers in Wood Finished Cherry sale for $1798 including shipping, of course as all here know, but here are their on-axis FR plot, and the new Imp/Phase plot. Sensitivity = 92dB/1W/1M. These towers are Five Driver, Three Way crossing at 375hz. (1st order), and 1.8kHz. (2nd order), 6Ω Nominal Imp., and weighing in at 65#'s per speaker, with a 1+" thick Front Baffle.

and Impedance/Phase Plot.

Do these plots look any good? Please chime in on all the negatives of them that one observes.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Those plots look great to me. Now it's time for some serious listening sessions!

 

[lsiberian]

Do these plots look any good?

They certainly look good, but seeing an off-axis response and a waterfall would be helpful.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

The Aperion VGT's cross over off of the Kevlar 5" midrange drivers over to the ASR Tweeter at 1.8kHz. Maybe that is their one little secret crossing over to the tweeter way down at 1.8kHz., instead of many that cross over at 3kHz.

Right--I know they worked pretty hard on that tweeter design to get something that could be crossed low. Also, they use a woven kevlar fabric, which may be better behaved than the standard formlations. I modified one fairly popular bookshelf model (not an Aperion) that crossed at 4 kHz, right smack at one of the kevlar breakup modes. BTW, I met Aperion's crossover designer in Oregon last year--very nice, talented guy. I doubt that they messed this one up.

 

[DenPureSound]

They certainly look good, but seeing an off-axis response and a waterfall would be helpful.

No polar plots on them that I have seen around and certainly no waterfall plots either.

There is one Off-Axis out to 30 degrees that Tom measured.

I did talk to Ed at Aperion regarding a lot of measurements, and they do have measurements, but he stated to me that their small Engr. dept. is to busy working on new products to pull up all the measured plots, and send them out.

Maybe, I scared him when my list had like 7 plots that I wanted to see!

He was able to produce the Imp/Phase Plot -- that one I put up on the Aperion Thread, which looks good at the two markers as labeled.

 

[DenPureSound]

I will: B&W. LOL!

Check it out:

Very nice post... now, what is the cone material showing in the REVEL on the right = ?

and the photo on the left is that 100% kevlar or poly impregnated w/ Kevlar?

 

[Nuance AH]

Very nice post... now, what is the cone material showing in the REVEL on the right = ?

and the photo on the left is that 100% kevlar or poly impregnated w/ Kevlar?

Crap...I can't recall what material that particular Revel driver is. I'll see if I can find it again. The B&W driver was woven Kevlar if I remember correctly.

I'd love to see off-axis and waterfall measurements for the Aperion, but comparing the measurements they do provide (along with AH's) to the ATC, and also based on what I heard with the Aperion's, I'd take the Verus Grand. I'd love to see what Aperion could do about adding a ribbon to the Verus Grand, such as the RAAL or the Fountek Dennis uses on the Philly 1's. Then we could have a three-way shootout between the Salk RAAL's, Ascend Tower RAAL's and the Verus Grand RAAL's. How much fun would that be!!??

DOH - I just realized spell check has been changing "Verus" to "Versus" this entire time. LMAO!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Very nice post... now, what is the cone material showing in the REVEL on the right = ?

If we are talking about Salon2, then Titanium inverted dome midrange and woofers and Beryllium tweeters.

 

[alphaiii]

I modified one fairly popular bookshelf model (not an Aperion) that crossed at 4 kHz, right smack at one of the kevlar breakup modes.

Would that be the S30?

I'm still thinking I need to hear the modded S30 at some point...

 

[zieglj01]

Would that be the S30?

I'm still thinking I need to hear the modded S30 at some point...

You never know - I may feel generous one day - the bass still amazes me.