Dolby Surround & DTS Neural:X "Upmixers" on New Denon X2800 in a 5.1 System

[isolar8001]

Yeah mine is a bit newer so just different/more choices.

Hope I don't get called out again for liking what you said.

I believe that old Listening Mode Preset doesn't exist on newer AVR's because their processing and memory functions are vastly superior. No need to force the inputs what to do with any signal.

I've been watching Seinfeld start to finish...really bad 2 channel sound, the original was probably mono.
I tried all DSP functions, and Neural:X actually sounded best. (Don't really like Neural:X and rarely use it)

Now, every time I play one of those episodes from file, my Pioneer switches to Neural:X. I didn't need to tell the AVR what to do..it somehow knows and doesn't switch to Neural:X for anything else that's 2 channel.

Given the wide variations in how sources are recorded and mastered, it's probably not good to assume they all will sound best with the same DSP processing applied based on what input they happen to be on.

Pushing a couple of buttons to get the best sound with your sources isn't that hard, is it ?
I just don't get this thread.

 

[John Lohmann]

Can't wait until this thread about basically nothing gets to 100 pages.

Said so eloquently from the individual who regularly has nothing to say. Very rich.

And it WASN'T for nothing -- I was originally having issues understanding how these upmixers on the new AVRs worked. Is that a crime?

 

[John Lohmann]

Hope I don't get called out again for liking what you said.

Maybe explain why you regularly "like" comments when it makes little sense to do so.

I believe that old Listening Mode Preset doesn't exist on newer AVR's because their processing and memory functions are vastly superior. No need to force the inputs what to do with any signal.

I've been watching Seinfeld start to finish...really bad 2 channel sound, the original was probably mono.
I tried all DSP functions, and Neural:X actually sounded best. (Don't really like Neural:X and rarely use it)

Now, every time I play one of those episodes from file, my Pioneer switches to Neural:X. I didn't need to tell the AVR what to do..it somehow knows and doesn't switch to Neural:X for anything else that's 2 channel.

Given the wide variations in how sources are recorded and mastered, it's probably not good to assume they all will sound best with the same DSP processing applied based on what input they happen to be on.

Pushing a couple of buttons to get the best sound with your sources isn't that hard, is it ?
I just don't get this thread.

Of course you don't get it -- I especially stated, from the beginning, that I don't want to have to push a button EVERY TIME I switch from a multichannel source to a 2.0 signal, because we watch varying content like this back to back, and I'd rather the AVR automatically switch. The ONLY way this seems to work with the Denons, at least, is to leave the upmixers "engaged" all the time for everything.

If you don't care for the content being discussed, why even comment?

 

[John Lohmann]

Yeah mine is a bit newer so just different/more choices.

From what generation was yours?

 

[isolar8001]

Maybe explain why you regularly "like" comments when it makes little sense to do so.


If you don't care for the content being discussed, why even comment?

Lady, I don't need to explain to you why I like something...thats nunya business and "likes" are very rarely mentioned by posters. You've mentioned me twice when I liked someone else's comments in this thread.
(that means I agree you're being OCD about all this)


Otherwise I wouldn't have made any comment on your stupid OCD thread that you specifically brought me into...I stayed the hell out of this mess.

 

[John Lohmann]

Lady, I don't need to explain to you why I like something...thats nunya business and "likes" are very rarely mentioned by posters. You've mentioned me twice when I like someone elses comments in this thread.

Otherwise I wouldn't have made any comment on your stupid OCD thread that you specifically brought me into...so there.

I got somebody's panties in a bunch! You gonna cry next? Call me a woman again, or maybe a tranny this time around?

Here....I'll do us both a favor -- I'll put ya on ignore, which I should have done from the get go.

Knock yourself out with the personal insults.

 

[lovinthehd]

From what generation was yours?

2011, have an HT-RC370 (believe same as the 709 at the time). I've not had any issues selecting a sound mode automatically between 2ch/multich tho.

 

[John Lohmann]

2011, have an HT-RC370 (believe same as the 709 at the time). I've not had any issues selecting a sound mode automatically between 2ch/multich tho.

Oh, okay...that was just a couple of years after my 605 in terms of generation.

When you say you haven't had any issues selecting a sound mode automatically between two channel and multichannel, are you referring to THAT RC370, or a new model? Because if you're referring to your old model, you shouldn't have had any "issues" being that the Listening Mode Preset menu would have taken care of all switching for you.

 

[lovinthehd]

Oh, okay...that was just a couple of years after my 605 in terms of generation.

When you say you haven't had any issues selecting a sound mode automatically between two channel and multichannel, are you referring to THAT RC370, or a new model? Because if you're referring to your old model, you shouldn't have had any "issues" being that the Listening Mode Preset menu would have taken care of all switching for you.

Only Onkyo I've got. It even has Audyssey. I don't use the Listening Mode Preset tho, the last valid works fine for me.

 

[John Lohmann]

Only Onkyo I've got. It even has Audyssey. I don't use the Listening Mode Preset tho, the last valid works fine for me.

Oh, alright -- for some reason, I thought you were now running a Denon or newer Onk; hard to keep track of the conversation from the beginning!

 

[lovinthehd]

Oh, alright -- for some reason, I thought you were now running a Denon or newer Onk; hard to keep track of the conversation from the beginning!

I also have Denons, a 3808, a 4520 and a 4700. Plus an old pre-hdmi Sony. I have several systems....

 

[John Lohmann]

I also have Denons, a 3808, a 4520 and a 4700. Plus an old pre-hdmi Sony. I have several systems....

Gotcha.

 

[John Lohmann]

Not sure if I mentioned this in the thread, but I have had some negative experiences thus far with the actual Dolby Surround system on 2.0 stereo sources -- starting with a marathon of Friday the 13th films I did on DVD last month, some of which contained Dolby Stereo 2.0 tracks, I noticed that when processed via the Denon's Dolby Surround algorithm, these signals exhibited nearly no surround information where there should have been. And I say "should have been" because in the past, watching these discs on older AVRs via the Pro Logic II Movie mode, a good deal of ambient information was extracted from the stereo signals and put into the surrounds. When I watched these same discs with Dolby Surround engaged, the tracks came from the center with some left/right spread...nothing much of anything going on in the rears.

Over the past couple of nights I watched the 1978 Dawn of the Dead "DiviMax" DVD (from Anchor Bay; came out around 2004 in conjunction with Zack Snyder's remake at the time), and at first I watched the film with the DTS 5.1 mix (which I usually do; the mix is weak and front-heavy). When I finished the film the second night, I tried the 2.0 surround audio option (this release has a multitude of redundant mixes, including an original mono track) and, again, the Denon's Dolby Surround upmixer threw nothing into the surrounds -- the entire track was center-focused with some minor left/right bleed. Now, it is, of course, entirely possible that Dawn of the Dead's 2.0 mix (this was the first time I watched this disc without running the 5.1 DTS surround track) didn't really have any information to extract into the surrounds, but given my experience with the aforementioned Friday the 13th films and the way Dolby Surround handled those, I suspect there's something else going on here.

Either I got a defective Denon, or Dolby Surround is a bullshit matrixing system compared directly to Pro Logic II (which some other folks have agreed with).

 

[lovinthehd]

How do you have rears with a 5.1 setup? I didn't notice a lot of difference changing from PLIIx to DS myself, but haven't done much comparing particularly either, kinda hard to do. I do wonder if there is much the creator of a Dolby 2.0 soundtrack can do as to coding for Dolby upmixers....

 

[John Lohmann]

How do you have rears with a 5.1 setup? I didn't notice a lot of difference changing from PLIIx to DS myself, but haven't done much comparing particularly either, kinda hard to do. I do wonder if there is much the creator of a Dolby 2.0 soundtrack can do as to coding for Dolby upmixers....

I just meant the standard surrounds in a 5.1 setup -- in my case, they're in our ceiling.

The fact of the matter, though, is that I HAVE heard these soundtracks I'm referring to (save for the Dawn of the Dead mix) on other AVRs using Pro Logic II and they were far more aggressive. Many of these "Dolby Stereo" tracks DO have a good deal of information in them to be extracted from a matrixing/upmixing system -- I'm not hearing them using Dolby Surround on this new Denon.

 

[lovinthehd]

I just meant the standard surrounds in a 5.1 setup -- in my case, they're in our ceiling.

The fact of the matter, though, is that I HAVE heard these soundtracks I'm referring to (save for the Dawn of the Dead mix) on other AVRs using Pro Logic II and they were far more aggressive. Many of these "Dolby Stereo" tracks DO have a good deal of information in them to be extracted from a matrixing/upmixing system -- I'm not hearing them using Dolby Surround on this new Denon.

Standard surrounds aren't in a ceiling otoh. Sonic memory is only so good in any case, too. I do have other avrs still running PLIIx but they're different setups and very hard to compare AB. From what I've read about 2.0 Dolby encoding, I don't know about "a good deal of information" particularly present. Then again there are several matrixing/upmixing options on an avr to see what works for you.

 

[John Lohmann]

Standard surrounds aren't in a ceiling otoh. Sonic memory is only so good in any case, too. I do have other avrs still running PLIIx but they're different setups and very hard to compare AB. From what I've read about 2.0 Dolby encoding, I don't know about "a good deal of information" particularly present. Then again there are several matrixing/upmixing options on an avr to see what works for you.

The SURROUNDS in my 5.1 setup are in our CEILING. That's all I'm saying. I know it's not the way it's often done, but they were there when we bought the house, so we used them. The fact remains though, the position of these channels has nothing to do with what I'm referring to -- in the past, these specific 2.0 stereo tracks exhibited a good deal of information in the surrounds when they were processed via Pro Logic II on my two previous Onkyos. Nothing seems to be coming out of the surround channels when I use Dolby Surround on this new Denon.

Of course, I can try using DTS Neural for the upmixing, but because the AVR automatically defaults to Dolby Surround for 2.0 Dolby sources, I've been testing it with that specific upmixer.

 

[lovinthehd]

Your avr should remember that preference for the codec per input/mode. I have noticed some 2.0 signals I get streaming are actually in DD+ codec and wonder if that can make a difference....

 

[John Lohmann]

Your avr should remember that preference for the codec per input/mode. I have noticed some 2.0 signals I get streaming are actually in DD+ codec and wonder if that can make a difference....

Yes -- I'm aware that it will remember DTS Neural for the next selection that requires the upmixer once I set it that way, but I was just explaining why I didn't try it.

Actually, that's not true -- when I played a Fleetwood Mac concert DVD a couple of weeks ago (which is in Dolby 2.0), I tried switching from Dolby Surround to DTS Neural for the upmixing to see if it would make a difference (which is how I had that whole codec mixup I spoke about a few posts back) and it really didn't. I could try again.

Because I only watch content on discs, I never see Dolby Digital Plus (this was mainly on HD DVDs of their time).

 

[lovinthehd]

Not sure I've ever had an HD DVD (had to look it up too, been a while). I pretty much went from dvd to bluray. I probably only have a handful of 2.0 dvds (I know I have one bluray that way).

Not sure of your point with the Fleetwood Mac disc, tho.