Dolby Surround & DTS Neural:X "Upmixers" on New Denon X2800 in a 5.1 System

[lovinthehd]

Can't agree more with your assessment of the 5.1 channel situation. As for using a flagship with just five channels, yeah, I thought about this, but beyond the most advanced room correction system and higher power, what would be the benefit of using such an AVR in that scenario? I realize that by not using those extra amp channels you theoretically are easing the headroom loads for the channels you DO use, but in my case, because I wouldn't be using, say, the most advanced type of Dirac or taking advantage of 20 channels, I don't suspect it would be of benefit.

That's one of the roadblocks I faced when I was considering the RZ50 -- I liked the PRODUCT itself in terms of its appearance, size and power, but didn't need what most people buy the model for: Dirac and high channel support.



No, it's not particularly relevant or important (I even mentioned in a previous post that this initially was "no big deal"), but it does make me wonder if something is wrong with the unit. It may just be an early symptom of something. Of course, right now, the codecs seem to be working correctly when discs play, but I'd like to know why this is suddenly occurring.

I guess I can run it past my Denon contact.



Yes; but I normally select the main soundtrack from the setup menu, as it's the "best" audio presentation. No matter what track I choose, though, the Denon is doing this weirdness with the mixed codec/upmixer combos.


Oh, I won't prefer the way the new ones do things -- I already know that, which is why I haven't purchased one. I prefer the Onkyo brand over all else, but there's nothing drawing me to one of the new models; they still don't show the sound mode/codec in use alongside the input name on the front panel and they still don't include the IntelliVolume feature (which we talked about ad nauseum in the other thread).Additionally, I'd be right back to the upmixer problem in my situation (trying to figure out how I can get Dolby Surround and DTS Neural to kick in automatically when 2.0 tracks are detected).

It's coming back to putting my old TX-SR605 back into the system and just dealing with the failing onscreen menus until the unit eventually dies altogether.

Not just advanced room correction and higher power, but video/hdmi/hdcp stuff comes into play too. I find more the mid-range below flagship but still full featured avrs (particularly with a full set of pre-outs) to be best value myself. Didn't realize the RZ50 had no Dirac, that somewhat surprises me but I'm still somewhat Onkyo-shy after their problems with the 2009-12 era avrs (which mine is and was repaired under extended warranty and works great plus runs cooler) plus their financial problems and new owner.

It is curious about the display thing....does a soft reset or a full reset change that?

What is a Denon contact?

I generally use the codec/channel setup on the blurays as-is, but tend to expand dvd to 7ch but don't watch many dvds these days either.

As to auto playback of 2.0 content into either DS or DTS Neural, that's almost always music and don't think my Denons have done but what's expected based on my last use of the particular input/codec. Even the youtube 2ch movies seem to remember my preference fine....will perhaps double check that next time.

I do still like a fairly full functional panel, but seeing what codec indicators are on needs a close look and I usually prefer to just call up the info screen for details rather than crawl over to the avr . Some panels have adjustments as to what is displayed, tho. The only thing I use adjustable source level for is my tt, which is only in my main system, just not an issue otherwise....but nice to have as an option.

I had an old Pioneer that died slowly, starting just after warranty expired. I used it until it went up in blue smoke I bought the used Denon 3808 on the classifieds here after that ($200) and its worked like a champ since (and has one of the better amp sections Denon has put out over the years)....its primarily for music in my workshop where it's setup and is up to snuff with the old 720p display in any case.

 

[John Lohmann]

It is curious about the display thing....does a soft reset or a full reset change that?

What do you mean -- on the DENON or are you referring to the ONKYOS?

What is a Denon contact?

The contact I made at the company -- the Denon/Marantz Tier 2 engineer I have been emailing back and forth with.

 

[John Lohmann]

I'll get back to your other comments shortly....

 

[lovinthehd]

What do you mean -- on the DENON or are you referring to the ONKYOS?



The contact I made at the company -- the Denon/Marantz Tier 2 engineer I have been emailing back and forth with.

I meant the Denon.

Nice but I still would put only so much faith into customer service from the brand....depending what tier 2 even means . I got elevated from basic customer service with a problem once with a Denon update to someone in technical section and he was no help.

 

[John Lohmann]

I meant the Denon.

I didn't try a factory reset; I can do that, I suppose. I just liked my Onkyo so much better; I have a bite on someone who wants to purchase the Denon in this forum, but we're working on logistics concerning location and shipping.

Nice but I still would put only so much faith into customer service from the brand....depending what tier 2 even means . I got elevated from basic customer service with a problem once with a Denon update to someone in technical section and he was no help.

Tier 2 is a designation for the level of expertise the engineer has -- I don't doubt his credentials just based on things he said to me. My requests were boosted from general consumer level to the engineering department because I had specific queries about how the upmixers work.

He's actually been a help in confirming what Treb said in this thread -- that the upmixers don't activate when there are no additional channels to "matrix" to -- as well as with regard to other technical bits I asked him about. It truly didn't sound like a consumer level runaround.

 

[John Lohmann]

Update, Lovin:

So last night after I watched about a quarter of Exorcist Believer on 4K, I stopped the disc (which comes with a Dolby Atmos soundtrack, played back as TrueHD on my setup) and the front of the Denon went weird again -- it read "DTHD + Neural:X," which obviously isn't correct by default (Dolby signals are supposed to get the Dolby upmixer). With the disc still stopped and before I ejected it, I pressed the green MOVIE button on the remote and moved the selection over to "Dolby Surround" (without the disc playing, mind you) and the front of the panel then read "Dolby THD."

This is VERY weird because I was back where I started with the receiver showing the core signal of a soundtrack without the "+Upmixer" designation. So something went out of whack at some point with the auto decoding sequence; I'll see what happens tonight.

Additionally: I read on AVS and elsewhere that there was a recent firmware update to the X Series Denons, and I thought that maybe it was an update that triggered this weirdness on the display -- when I did a system settings check last night, the AVR didn't indicate any new updates had been downloaded. I'm not sure if Denon AVRs tell you when there's an update, but just reporting that; it may have had nothing to do with a FW update then.

 

[lovinthehd]

Update, Lovin:

So last night after I watched about a quarter of Exorcist Believer on 4K, I stopped the disc (which comes with a Dolby Atmos soundtrack, played back as TrueHD on my setup) and the front of the Denon went weird again -- it read "DTHD + Neural:X," which obviously isn't correct by default (Dolby signals are supposed to get the Dolby upmixer). With the disc still stopped and before I ejected it, I pressed the green MOVIE button on the remote and moved the selection over to "Dolby Surround" (without the disc playing, mind you) and the front of the panel then read "Dolby THD."

This is VERY weird because I was back where I started with the receiver showing the core signal of a soundtrack without the "+Upmixer" designation. So something went out of whack at some point with the auto decoding sequence; I'll see what happens tonight.

Additionally: I read on AVS and elsewhere that there was a recent firmware update to the X Series Denons, and I thought that maybe it was an update that triggered this weirdness on the display -- when I did a system settings check last night, the AVR didn't indicate any new updates had been downloaded. I'm not sure if Denon AVRs tell you when there's an update, but just reporting that; it may have had nothing to do with a FW update then.

Hmmm. Actually there should be no automatic sound mode addition Dolby or DTS for the basic DTHD codec except as you "train" the unit for your preference of sound mode applied (or not).

While I was watching something late the other night (well maybe more early morning, insomnia everything stopped while it updated. I thought I had auto updates turned off but can't prove it, have no idea what the update was, they're not great about publishing details. I generally don't want to bother with updates unless it addresses something I actually need. I've reset the auto update to no and the allow update to off (again I think).

 

[John Lohmann]

I ended up, somehow, getting everything back to the way it was -- that is, Dolby Surround is attached to Dolby signals and DTS Neural is attached to DTS signals. Don't know what I did, specifically, but it had something to do with switching a piece of Dolby content from "+Neural:X" to "+Dolby Surr" via the green Movie button.

Did I express how much I hate these "auto upmixers" in newer AVRs?

I don't understand, really, why they can't go back to the way things used to be handled -- where a menu in the setup section of the AVR could be assigned for each individual codec PER CHANNEL TYPE.

 

[lovinthehd]

I ended up, somehow, getting everything back to the way it was -- that is, Dolby Surround is attached to Dolby signals and DTS Neural is attached to DTS signals. Don't know what I did, specifically, but it had something to do with switching a piece of Dolby content from "+Neural:X" to "+Dolby Surr" via the green Movie button.

Did I express how much I hate these "auto upmixers" in newer AVRs?

I don't understand, really, why they can't go back to the way things used to be handled -- where a menu in the setup section of the AVR could be assigned for each individual codec PER CHANNEL TYPE.

I've only seen that pre-advance assignment in my old Onkyo fwiw (and the Onkyo has the auto thing too).

 

[John Lohmann]

I've only seen that pre-advance assignment in my old Onkyo fwiw (and the Onkyo has the auto thing too).

Yes -- it was definitely an Onkyo thing, as my 605 had it and the Denon contact told me even their receivers from decades ago relied on an "Auto" approach (without an assignment menu).

I cannot STAND the way these new AV amps work in this regard -- what's the problem with engineering a sound mode assign menu? What is so difficult about it?

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes -- it was definitely an Onkyo thing, as my 605 had it and the Denon contact told me even their receivers from decades ago relied on an "Auto" approach (without an assignment menu).

I cannot STAND the way these new AV amps work in this regard -- what's the problem with engineering a sound mode assign menu? What is so difficult about it?

Possibly you're just one of the few people who actually used it? I know I haven't but briefly on my Onkyo....

 

[John Lohmann]

Possibly you're just one of the few people who actually used it? I know I haven't but briefly on my Onkyo....

I'm one of the few who actually used this sound mode assign menu? You can't be serious, can you?

I'm SURE there were tons of owners who preferred setting certain modes for certain signal types -- so Pro Logic II was used for 2.0 signals and, for example, Mono Movie was used for mono signals. Sure, direct multichannel platforms like Dolby Digital and DTS would most likely have been left at "Last Valid," which was like an "Auto," but I can't image NO ONE ELSE would have wanted to use the assign feature for other types of signals.

What's even weirder is that Isolar actually agreed with you about this and thumbed up the comment -- you guys actually BELIEVE no one else ever used the sound mode default menu?

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm one of the few who actually used this sound mode assign menu? You can't be serious, can you?

I'm SURE there were tons of owners who preferred setting certain modes for certain signal types -- so Pro Logic II was used for 2.0 signals and, for example, Mono Movie was used for mono signals. Sure, direct multichannel platforms like Dolby Digital and DTS would most likely have been left at "Last Valid," which was like an "Auto," but I can't image NO ONE ELSE would have wanted to use the assign feature for other types of signals.

What's even weirder is that Isolar actually agreed with you about this and thumbed up the comment -- you guys actually BELIEVE no one else ever used the sound mode default menu?

It likely got deleted for a reason, and I'd suspect that it just wasn't in high demand is all. Sure, some probably found that menu and used it but I'd bet the majority didn't.

 

[John Lohmann]

It likely got deleted for a reason, and I'd suspect that it just wasn't in high demand is all. Sure, some probably found that menu and used it but I'd bet the majority didn't.

If they didn't use it, how did any signals get decoded and assigned by the AVR's processor?

 

[lovinthehd]

If they didn't use it, how did any signals get decoded and assigned by the AVR's processor?

From the automatic settings and remembering your preferences....it's not like it this is being prevented.

 

[John Lohmann]

From the automatic settings and remembering your preferences....it's not like it this is being prevented.

It never remembered "preferences" -- unless you're referring to the aforementioned "Last Valid" selection (I'm not sure if these were all set to "Last Valid" by default).

 

[lovinthehd]

It never remembered "preferences" -- unless you're referring to the aforementioned "Last Valid" selection (I'm not sure if these were all set to "Last Valid" by default).

Which unit are you referring to? My Onkyo remembers preferences based on detected codec, as do my Denons but my Onkyo also has the Listening Mode Preset menu (where last valid equates to remembering your preference).

 

[John Lohmann]

Which unit are you referring to? My Onkyo remembers preferences based on detected codec, as do my Denons but my Onkyo also has the Listening Mode Preset menu (where last valid equates to remembering your preference).

I was referring to OLD Onkyos, like my TX-SR605 -- this is what the Listening Mode Preset menu I keep referencing looked like:

 

[isolar8001]

Can't wait until this thread about basically nothing gets to 100 pages.

 

[lovinthehd]

I was referring to OLD Onkyos, like my TX-SR605 -- this is what the Listening Mode Preset menu I keep referencing looked like:

View attachment 69748

Yeah mine is a bit newer so just different/more choices.