Do vaccine refusers have an ethical duty to pay for their own Covid care?

[Mr._Clark]

Thanks. I don't think of myself as being exceptionally patient. I do work on that, especially here at AH. When I worked as a scientist, I learned that simply telling others that their ideas were BS wasn't enough. It took an explanation of how better control experiments might actually convince a doubter (like me) that their ideas had merit.

Some people actually did those control experiments, removing my doubts, or convincing themselves that their initial idea had to change. So, I became experienced at wading into someone's scientific or pseudo-scientific explanations, dissecting them, and using their own words to show their errors or gaps in thinking, as well as paths they might take to find a way out. That worked with most scientists. They mostly share in common a concept of what convincing evidence is and what good scientific logic should look like.

But this vaccine controversy we now see in this country is something quite different. It's not really about science – it's really political. It's about individuals living within a larger society and what their responsibility is to that society. Where does one stand on individual rights vs. the common good? Are laws and taxes necessary or evil? Is a government needed to do this? Should there be required military service (a draft) in times of emergency? Or, should we have a professional military class within society, as we seem to now have? Is universal health care, run by a single entity (i.e. a government) the best way to do this? Or, should we have strictly private health care, which tends to vary widely in effectiveness and price to both individuals and society? Same question for retirement savings or pensions. And, in public health emergencies, as we now have with the corona virus pandemic, should public vaccination be required? (Those are only a few examples of unlimited libertarianism vs. common good.)

With the pandemic, I see an alarming trend in our country. I see too many people who believe that their individual liberties should never come second no matter what. They believe they are entitled to endanger all of society by not only avoiding vaccination, but also by fomenting widespread resistance to vaccination. I am forced to wonder if they also want to never pay taxes, never obey laws they disagree with, and never participate in defending their country from an outside attack.

Many on either side of the vaccine controversy don't have a science background. When I see people whose politics fall within the anti-vaccine camp, and who try to make scientific-sounding but false arguments, I take the time & effort to skewer them. I'm glad to know others think I'm patient about this. But, in truth, I'd really prefer to pillory vaccine refusers and publicly inject them – not in the arm, but in the buttocks.

There's nothing wrong with an honest debate about a particular policy. Unfortunately, too many people decide they like or dislike something, then look for facts (or lies) to support their position.

 

[Alex2507]

Swerd also has a PhD in microbiology.

I'm always happy to lecture people . When I do that at home, my wife usually rolls her eyes and puts in her invisible earplugs.

Maybe 'cause she's got her own PhD ...

 

[highfigh]

By the way, your home brew "crime against humanity" legal theory is nothing but a fantasy. I suppose you fancy yourself to be a great legal eagle of sorts who has discovered a legal theory that has been overlooked by every lawyer and legal scholar in the country for the past 70 years?

Does this strike you as being realistic? Do you want to join the rest of us here in the real world? Perhaps you prefer Wonderland?

First, this may come as a surprise to you, but the U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land in the United States:
Article VI

• Clause 2
• This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Article VI Section 2 | Constitution Annotated | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

constitution.congress.gov

For 100 years, courts have consistently held that vaccine mandates are constitutional:

>>>Not Breaking News: Mandatory Vaccination Has Been Constitutional for Over a Century
While there is a lot of sound and fury these days about mandatory vaccination against the COVID-19 virus, it should ultimately signify nothing. Mandatory vaccination is 100 percent constitutional and has been for over a century. In Bruesewitz v. Wyeth LLC, 562 U.S. 223 (2011), Justice Antonin Scalia stated that “the elimination of communicable diseases through vaccination became one of the greatest achievements of public health in the 20th century.” Id. at 226 (2011) (quotation marks and footnote omitted). Justice Breyer, concurring, agreed. “[R]outine vaccination is one of the most spectacularly effective public health initiatives this country has ever undertaken.” Id. at 245. Bruesewitz effectively eliminated product liability litigation involving vaccines.<<<

Not Breaking News: Mandatory Vaccination Has Been Constitutional for Over a Century

The same arguments we see today thus failed over a century ago in Jacobson and vaccine resistance need not be tolerated when it allows disease to spread and imperil others.

www.americanbar.org

So, with that as background, let's take a look at what actually happens here in the real world when someone alleges in court that vaccine mandates are a violation of the Nuremberg Code.

Do you have any guesses? Come on there legal eagle, let's hear your prediction.

Let's cut to the chase. The judge tells them they're idiots:

View attachment 52359

ORDER ON DISMISSAL for Bridges, et al v. Houston Methodist Hospital et al. :: Justia Dockets & Filings

docs.justia.com

I'm a bit surprised the comments about the concentration camps didn't include 'intentionally' before "cause pain, mutilation, permanent disability and in many cases, death". They clearly didn't care about those, they just wanted specimens to use for their experiments.

Covid vaccination isn't an intentional path toward any of those results.

 

[highfigh]

And in more recent news,

WHO says Covid booster programs limit vaccine supply for poor countries, could prolong pandemic

World Health Organization officials warned vaccine inequality could lead to the emergence of more mutant Covid variants.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Mikado463]

And in more recent news,

WHO says Covid booster programs limit vaccine supply for poor countries, could prolong pandemic

World Health Organization officials warned vaccine inequality could lead to the emergence of more mutant Covid variants.

www.cnbc.com

WHO said what.........

On a serious note as much as we all want to cast a certain amount of blame politically for all the mess / confusion, I for one think the media just loves playing both sides against the middle on this mess, something they've been good at for decades.

 

[panteragstk]

WHO said what.........

On a serious note as much as we all want to cast a certain amount of blame politically for all the mess / confusion, I for one think the media just loves playing both sides against the middle on this mess, something they've been good at for decades.

Yes, the media is partially to blame, but the fact that people can literally bombard themselves with a CONSTANT stream of misinformation is what keeps this at the forefront of so many folks minds.

Not that COVID is still an issue, but that COVID is somehow STILL a political debate when it ISN'T and never should have been.

 

[Trell]

WHO said what.........

On a serious note as much as we all want to cast a certain amount of blame politically for all the mess / confusion, I for one think the media just loves playing both sides against the middle on this mess, something they've been good at for decades.

Yet again you are apologizing for GOP and Trump and acolytes.

 

[Trell]

Yes, the media is partially to blame, but the fact that people can literally bombard themselves with a CONSTANT stream of misinformation is what keeps this at the forefront of so many folks minds.

Not that COVID is still an issue, but that COVID is somehow STILL a political debate when it ISN'T and never should have been.

And this disinformation is regularly posted even in our Covid thread by some members, but at least it is refuted.

 

[Nodd]

What about people who eat junk food, or drink alcohol, or smoke, or don't work out/don't move enough(office workers, gamers, forum dwellers etc etc) or drive cars and contribute to pollution and have a big chance for accidents happening. or do ANYTHING that will cause possible hospitalisation at some point in their lives?

They have the choice to not drink alcohol, smoke, do sport, leave that pc/phone off, not drive cars etc. etc.

Let them pay for it all themselves? There have been much needed hospital beds here in the Netherlands since yeaaaars. What did they do? SCALE DOWN over the years. Even during covid. There was always pressure on the hospitals.

Everyone deserves to be treated, and if you pay for health insurance you deserve any reduction you can get for whatever treatment. Everyone has health insurance in the Netherlands.

 

[Trell]

What about people who eat junk food, or drink alcohol, or smoke, or don't work out/don't move enough(office workers, gamers, forum dwellers etc etc) or drive cars and contribute to pollution and have a big chance for accidents happening. or do ANYTHING that will cause possible hospitalisation at some point in their lives?

They have the choice to not drink alcohol, smoke, do sport, leave that pc/phone off, not drive cars etc. etc.

Let them pay for it all themselves? There have been much needed hospital beds here in the Netherlands since yeaaaars. What did they do? SCALE DOWN over the years. Even during covid. There was always pressure on the hospitals.

Everyone deserves to be treated, and if you pay for health insurance you deserve any reduction you can get for whatever treatment. Everyone has health insurance in the Netherlands.

Of course everyone should be treated, but me eating a hamburger is not going to infect you with a deadly disease. Part of what makes COVID so dangerous is that it also overwhelms health care so previously treatable conditions now becomes deadly.

 

[Nodd]

Of course everyone should be treated, but me eating a hamburger is not going to infect you with a deadly disease. Part of what makes COVID so dangerous is that it also overwhelms health care so previously treatable conditions now becomes deadly.

You driving a car can give me a disease, you buying groceries could give me a disease(more plastic more factories at work etc.). You participating in traffic can potentially injure me or end my life in an accident, which happens a lot generally speaking. It's one of the major causes of death and injury in the world. Anyone smoking can cause me harm, people drinking cause A WHOLE LOT of harm to others directly and indirectly. And it's all preventable. Eating a hamburger isn't without harm to others either. There is a big ongoing proces worldwide to make that hamburger possible that has killed A LOT of people and made A LOT people sick. You buying electronics is unhealthy for many people too. Planes, cars, motorbikes, factories etc. cause a lot of pollution which on itself causes many cancer and other illnesses worldwide. It's the biggest problem we have right now for the planet causing a huge amount of cancer and other illnesses and damage to the planet itself which is a far greater threat than covid ever will be.

If health care is overwhelmed, then people should start living healthier, and stop causing accidents that can be prevented. The reason healthcare is overwhelmed is because people aren't healthy enough and accidents. It's not covid causing the most pressure on health care. Alcohol, junkfood and smoking has a bigger role in this, yet it's freely available at every corner. Smoking causes harm to others as well by inhaling second hand smoke. I shouldn't pay for not taking a vaccin, while the rest is contributing even harder for that pressure and gets away with it.

In my country, the health system was heavily under pressure even with the normal flu cases.
The health care system here has been scaled DOWN, not UP. There should be huge and many campaigns going on trying to attract people to work in healthcare. This isn't the case. There was no drastic increase in salaries either. They even fired many people in these difficult times. They reduced the number of hospital beds, NOT increased.


It makes no sense. You're simply pointing your finger at a specific group of people while literally almost everyone contributes to pressure on healthcare pressure in one way or another in our fast paced unhealthy western lives.

I grow my own food, 100% organic, work out, don't drink, don't smoke, and do regular meditation to stay sane and healthy. A healthy mind contributes to a healthy body.

And now I have to pay because i don't want a vaccin? Now I'M the one responsible of healthcare pressure?

I'm in my 30's and healthy as can be, have pretty much 0 chance of dying of covid or getting hospitalised. Both vaccinated and unvaccinated people can transmit covid.

Where is the logic here? Statistically speaking you with your junk food have more chance to a hospital visit at some point, than i have because of covid.

 

[Nodd]

Of course everyone should be treated, but me eating a hamburger is not going to infect you with a deadly disease. Part of what makes COVID so dangerous is that it also overwhelms health care so previously treatable conditions now becomes deadly.

2/2 WHY is there so much pressure on healthcare? Solely because of Covid? No. There are reasons that cause more pressure than covid. But that doesn't fit a certain "narrative". It's a psychological thing. Humans always looking for something or someone to blame.

Leave that hamburger alone. Don't pick it up, don't buy it. Don't get in that car or plane. Truly do something for the planet IF you really do care that much about the human race. But do you really? Or only when it fits for you?

 

[NINaudio]

That's a whole lot of conjecture. You do not have 0 chance of being hospitalized or dying from covid if you aren't vaccinated no matter how healthy you think you are.

What I really don't understand is that the vaccine is another weapon to use to keep yourself healthy. If you're so conscious about your health why would you NOT want to take this extra precaution?

As for vaccine refusers paying more, there is already precedent for insurance companies charging smokers more on their premiums, giving people who go to the gym a discount, etc, etc.

 

[Trell]

You driving a car can give me a disease, you buying groceries could give me a disease(more plastic more factories at work etc.). You participating in traffic can potentially injure me or end my life in an accident, which happens a lot generally speaking. It's one of the major causes of death and injury in the world. Anyone smoking can cause me harm, people drinking cause A WHOLE LOT of harm to others directly and indirectly. And it's all preventable. Eating a hamburger isn't without harm to others either. There is a big ongoing proces worldwide to make that hamburger possible that has killed A LOT of people and made A LOT people sick. You buying electronics is unhealthy for many people too. Planes, cars, motorbikes, factories etc. cause a lot of pollution which on itself causes many cancer and other illnesses worldwide. It's the biggest problem we have right now for the planet.

If health care is overwhelmed, then people should start living healthier, and stop causing accidents that can be prevented. The reason healthcare is overwhelmed is because people aren't healthy enough and accidents. It's not covid causing the most pressure on health care. Alcohol, junkfood and smoking has a bigger role in this, yet it's freely available at every corner. Smoking causes harm to others as well by inhaling second hand smoke. I shouldn't pay for not taking a vaccin, while the rest is contributing even harder for that pressure and gets away with it.

In my country, the health system was heavily under pressure even with the normal flu cases.
The health care system here has been scaled DOWN, not UP. There should be huge and many campaigns going on trying to attract people to work in healthcare. This isn't the case. There was no drastic increase in salaries either. They even fired many people in these difficult times. They reduced the number of hospital beds, NOT increased.


It makes no sense. You're simply pointing your finger at a specific group of people while literally almost everyone contributes to pressure on healthcare pressure in one way or another in our fast paced unhealthy western lives.

I grow my own food, 100% organic, work out, don't drink, don't smoke, and do regular meditation to stay sane and healthy. A healthy mind contributes to a healthy body.

And now I have to pay because i don't want a vaccin? Now I'M the one responsible of healthcare pressure?

I'm in my 30's and healthy as can be, have pretty much 0 chance of dying of covid or getting hospitalised. Both vaccinated and unvaccinated people can transmit covid.

Where is the logic here? Statistically speaking you with your junk food have more chance to a hospital visit at some point, than i have because of covid.

Just take the vaccine dude.

 

[Danzilla31]

Yet again you are apologizing for GOP and Trump and acolytes.

Where on there did he say anything about the GOP? Or Trump? What he said about thr media is accurate. The only one that dragged politics into this right now is you

 

[Danzilla31]

Just take the vaccine dude.

Let him do what he wants he knows the risks quit trying to tell people what to do

 

[highfigh]

WHO said what.........

On a serious note as much as we all want to cast a certain amount of blame politically for all the mess / confusion, I for one think the media just loves playing both sides against the middle on this mess, something they've been good at for decades.

No, Who's on first?

 

[Danzilla31]

Yes, the media is partially to blame, but the fact that people can literally bombard themselves with a CONSTANT stream of misinformation is what keeps this at the forefront of so many folks minds.

Not that COVID is still an issue, but that COVID is somehow STILL a political debate when it ISN'T and never should have been.

What's starting to get on my nerves is WHAT the media is choosing to cover. The WHO is right. If you don't vaccinate the poor in poor countries your never getting rid of this. They the scientists said it themselves. Mandates and boosters won't work if you don't do that in fact it hoards vaccines for the rich countries while denying it to the poor ones. And then Covid will just mutate and come back here you can't mandate or boost your way out of this. The science and Who just said it. You hear the media talking about this? No. Because it doesn't sell. Even though it's common sense. @Nodd is right you want to militate for the poor? Help world climate change? Then actually do something that makes common sense to help them

 

[Trell]

Let him do what he wants he knows the risks quit trying to tell people what to do

We should stop telling people to take a vaccine that’s effective and safe? The only ones refusing now are the morons, the superstitious and those for medical reasons.

 

[Trell]

Where on there did he say anything about the GOP? Or Trump? What he said about thr media is accurate. The only one that dragged politics into this right now is you

Covid is not political? What rock have you’ve been living under? The post was nothing more than an attempt to deflect the GOP handling under Trump and currently. Even Trump got booed when he told that he got a booster shot.

But here are you and your “bros” blathering on.