Do vaccine refusers have an ethical duty to pay for their own Covid care?

jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
There is a social trend now about gatherings/functions and only vaccinated people are to attend. This makes sense for several reasons including while vaccination is great
it's not a 100% guarantee that the co-mingling unvaccinated still can't be infected. That means the other wise manageable risks aren't adhered to and valuable hospital resources taken for an otherwise preventable illness. Resources that should be used for people in medical need through no fault of their own.

I'd be interested in hearing what a medical ethicist would have to say on the matter.

If you are refusing the vaccine, that the efficacy of is now beyond reproach, I don't want it coming out of the societal pocket book. I want you to bare 100% of your own costs on this choice you are making.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I'm certainly not a medical ethicist, and I wonder if we have any such people at Audioholics. But I do have some opinions about your idea.

At first glance, I like your idea. It could result in more people being vaccinated. But, I doubt if medical ethicists would line up behind any effort to refuse treating people, vaccinated or not, for diseases where the treatments are known to help.

I also think the public health vaccination experts would cringe at your idea. They've found that coercion doesn't work as well as persuading trusted local civic or religious leaders to get on board with vaccination.

However, if health insurance companies decide to pay for vaccination in the future, they might also refuse to pay for hospitalization due to Covid-19. But that's a very big IF. Health insurance laws vary widely among different states, and there is no national policy that could cover this. So I doubt if anything like your idea will be implemented. It will come down to politics in each state or at the local level.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I also think the public health vaccination experts would cringe at your idea. They've found that coercion doesn't work as well as persuading trusted local civic or religious leaders to get on board with vaccination.
I agree with all your points and states 'shotatamillion' lottery had this pop up into my mind. If you carrot the incentive what would the stick look like?

You should get top shelf care even if you refused to get vaccinated, I just don't want it coming out of my pocket book. But that's not the bigger premise even:

If I've one ICU bed do I use it for someone that just got in a car accident or for someone that 100% could have prevented their illness?
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Samurai
Really? So, no concern for the societal pocket book when ERs are full of the chronically ill all of the time? I keep promising myself to stay clear of these threads and then s#%t like this pops up. The US population is the sickest amongst developed nations for several reasons. Mostly, it's because Americans can't put down the bottle, the pills or the f#%kin' fork and some d#%k makes a fortune supplying them with the crap. You wanna' talk about hospital resources being wasted on preventable illness? A nation's healthcare system should not be for profit if you care anything about productivity. How productive is a nation full of chronically ill, obese addicts? It's of little concern to those invested in the outfits feeding people the poison and the supposed cure. This whole mess is a money grab and political ping pong ball. If Trump had advocated for it, the Left would be losing their mind. Most on the Left AND Right in Washington are making a killing on this thing, but what else is new? Making money for themselves after signing paperwork written by lobbyists is what they ALL do best. You'd think the vaccine would have been mandatory from the get go for our reps and armed forces personnel. But, guess what, it wasn't. Oh, and still no FDA approval for it and sickness rates greater for those AFTER receiving it. Sure, there's a national health crisis, but there is an even bigger control issue going on. Oh, and be very careful about throwing out numbers in regard to preventing 100% of anything. Is it ok if a 600lb glutton takes up a bed after bypass surgery? What about the alcoholic with the new liver? Chainsmoker with new lung? Should the health nut T-boned by the drunk driver not get a bed over any of those who made shitty decisions concerning their own health? Those are just some of my own thoughts and opinions and are in no way affiliated with or are a representation of the thoughts and opinions of Audioholics.com and may very well change after another cup of coffee.;)
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Some of this also stems from an NPR interview of a MASH surgeon posed with the question of a US Soldier and a combatant both with grave injury and only one OR or enough blood transfusion for 1. It was an interesting conversation.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Samurai
Really? So, no concern for the societal pocket book when ERs are full of the chronically ill all of the time? I keep promising myself to stay clear of these threads and then s#%t like this pops up. The US population is the sickest amongst developed nations for several reasons. Mostly, it's because Americans can't put down the bottle, the pills or the f#%kin' fork and some d#%k makes a fortune supplying them with the crap. You wanna' talk about hospital resources being wasted on preventable illness? A nation's healthcare system should not be for profit if you care anything about productivity. How productive is a nation full of chronically ill, obese addicts? It's of little concern to those invested in the outfits feeding people the poison and the supposed cure. This whole mess is a money grab and political ping pong ball. If Trump had advocated for it, the Left would be losing their mind. Most on the Left AND Right in Washington are making a killing on this thing, but what else is new? Making money for themselves after signing paperwork written by lobbyists is what they ALL do best. You'd think the vaccine would have been mandatory from the get go for our reps and armed forces personnel. But, guess what, it wasn't. Oh, and still no FDA approval for it and sickness rates greater for those AFTER receiving it. Sure, there's a national health crisis, but there is an even bigger control issue going on. Oh, and be very careful about throwing out numbers in regard to preventing 100% of anything. Is it ok if a 600lb glutton takes up a bed after bypass surgery? What about the alcoholic with the new liver? Chainsmoker with new lung? Should the health nut T-boned by the drunk driver not get a bed over any of those who made shitty decisions concerning their own health? Those are just some of my own thoughts and opinions and are in no way affiliated with or are a representation of the thoughts and opinions of Audioholics.com and may very well change after another cup of coffee.;)
How'd that second cup of coffee work out ? ....... :eek:
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Samurai
Surely you exclude people that for medical reasons can't take the Covid vaccine?
 
L

lp85253

Audioholic Chief
Ethics have nothing to do with it.. It's cheaper to treat them and bill whoever is their payers ...
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Ethics have nothing to do with it.. It's cheaper to treat them and bill whoever is their payers ...
It's cheaper to get the vaccine and not potentially tie up a hospital bed that someone else could use.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Samurai
It's cheaper to get the vaccine and not potentially tie up a hospital bed that someone else could use.
One thing is the financial aspect of this, the other is that tying up hospital beds could very well cause the death of other people that will not get needed treatment.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Can we extend such to those who refused to wear masks or politicians who advocated not wearing masks or social distancing during the times most needed to avoid the need for intense covid care as much as possible? Taking away the level of healthcare our elected legislators deem is suitable for themselves only sounds delicious to me in any case....

We do have a bunch of fat lazy stupid addicted people around, tho.....see 'em all the time at drumph rallies :)

We're just better off spending on weapons and killing overall?
 
L

lp85253

Audioholic Chief
It's cheaper to get the vaccine and not potentially tie up a hospital bed that someone else could use.
..Edit : here in az they found that caring for the uninsured was far more expensive than giving them state issued healthcare.. So when the uninsured are hospitalized, they are automatically given govt sponsored healthcare.. It doesn't go over well with the right wing idiots , but even the gop lawmakers don't oppose it due to costs associated with treating the uninsured... You can't force people to take vaccines.. It's basically a pointless political debate...
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Leave the medical ethicists out of the vaccination question.

Years ago when seat belts were not used by many, the auto insurance companies dealt with that by raising insurance premiums and/or refusing injury claims if people who hadn't worn seat belts filed claims.

Similarly, when cell phones were commonly used while people drove, it became common for insurance companies and personal injury lawyers to subpoena phone records if a policy holder made a claim. If phones were used at a similar time to an accident, the insurance claims were refused, and the policy holder's premiums increased.

Health insurance companies already penalize smokers who don't quit. They could adapt those practices for vaccinations. If people refuse vaccination, their policy rates go up. And if they make a claim after refusing vaccination, their claims can be reduced or denied.
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Samurai
You mean kids can attend school without immunization? Military cannot require vaccinating the troops?
You can a) home school and b) not join the military if you absolutely don't want to be vaccinated.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
You can't force people to take vaccines.. It's basically a pointless political debate...
Not for much longer. The main reason why we haven't seen people forced to get a Covid-19 vaccination is because of the way the FDA allow their use by Emergency Use Authorization (EUA). Technically, those vaccines got early but temporary authorization for use under emergency conditions. For example, hospitals routinely require their entire staff to get annual flu vaccines, but not the Covid-19 vaccine.

That's about to change. The Pfizer and Moderna clinical trials began last July and August. As soon as those companies can submit a full year's data on the safety & efficacy, the FDA can convert those EUAs to full authorizations. Once that happens, you'll soon see hospitals require their employees to get vaccinated or find another job. As soon as a full year's data is available for kids, you'll see the same requirement for attending school.
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Samurai
Coffee? I'm curious what you would sound like after meth. :eek:
Oh great, now the "War On Drugs" guys are gonna' show up and you know the "Gun Control" guys won't be far behind and my f#%kin' coffee isn't finished percolating yet!:eek:
Fine, everything wrong with the world is the fault of those refusing the vaccine.:rolleyes: Let insurance companies raise rates. Just raise em' for assholes who eat, drink and smoke too much as well. They charge more for kids who drive too fast. Why not for those who live too fast? People only give a s#%t these days when it comes to money, anyway. Isn't the spending of money the real concern of this thread? Good thing most people in this country cannot afford health insurance on their own. Can't raise the rate on a guy who can't afford the policy.:D Where's my f#%kin' cup?!!:mad: I kid folks. Wear your seat belts. You wanna' gobble down Hot Pockets and do meth or anything else cooked up by some crackpot looking to make a buck, have at it.;) Just don't have any delusions about government officials giving a s#%t about anybody's health. Their sponsors are interested in profit. A farmer is f#%ked if his livestock all get sick and they lose all of the meat. Yeah, and we are the cash cows. MOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!;)
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Chief
There is a social trend now about gatherings/functions and only vaccinated people are to attend. This makes sense for several reasons including while vaccination is great
it's not a 100% guarantee that the co-mingling unvaccinated still can't be infected. That means the other wise manageable risks aren't adhered to and valuable hospital resources taken for an otherwise preventable illness. Resources that should be used for people in medical need through no fault of their own.

I'd be interested in hearing what a medical ethicist would have to say on the matter.

If you are refusing the vaccine, that the efficacy of is now beyond reproach, I don't want it coming out of the societal pocket book. I want you to bare 100% of your own costs on this choice you are making.
One issue is that the vaccines are not 100% effective. It would not be possible to know with certainty that particular person would not have gotten sick if they’d gotten the vaccine. I realize that wouldn’t necessarily rule out the idea but reduces the force of the equitable argument somewhat (at least to my mind)

Also, some people get COVID and recover without requiring medical treatment, thereby developing immunity without the cost of a vaccine. I’d imagine that at least some of them would argue that they shouldn’t be required to cover the cost of vaccines for others.

Anyhoo, it’s interesting food for thought but I don’t see it happening
 

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