DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[droht]

ju10503, you certainly make a valid point about the consumer needing to do what they have to do to protect themsevles. Too much trust was placed in av123 by many folks. Almost no one will argue that. The mentality of many folks has now become "leave Schifter alone so he can revive his business and get me my product or refund". I understand where that comes from, but I just don't agree with it. Wondering what your take is? If he had $3000 of yours for 2 years (I know, wouldn't happen, but let's pretend) would you at this point play the wait and hope game or be going after him with both barrels, knowing that bankruptcy virtually guarantees that you'll receive little or nothing that you are owed?

Beyond that, I can understand your "cyber lynch mob" comment if you are totally new and ignorant to all things av123. The fact is that Schifter is/was a phenomenal on line marketer and promoter. He built a strong, to say the least, following that spread the word all over the on line world. The current backlash is in some ways just the other side of that coin. Live by the net, die the net. I have zero issues with threads like this one, unless someone crosses a legal line.

 

[ju10503]

"Feel" they got screwed? Being out thousands of dollars for something that was never received is more than "feeling" one got screwed.

Reading your posts, it's very difficult for me to believe you are anything close to sincere.

so, i really want to wrap this up, because it isn't really accomplishing much of anything, but i personally cannot state that "they got screwed," because i don't have the facts, ergo my use of the word "feel." as to my sincerity, your decision.

 

[ju10503]

... Wondering what your take is? If he had $3000 of yours for 2 years (I know, wouldn't happen, but let's pretend) would you at this point play the wait and hope game or be going after him with both barrels, ...

Based on what has been asserted repeatedly by the posts here, it would appear that in the hypothetical case you sketch out, neither approach would lead to 100% recovery of funds in a desirable time-frame. So, I, personally, would go after someone who screwed me with everything I had access to (having many lawyer friends in my case helps!), because then at least I'd have the satisfaction of having done all that I could within legal and ethical constraints.

No one here knows me, but I'm Catholic and will do the utmost to help people, and, this is a different topic, am shocked that people who are losing their houses are going homeless, because I would allow anyone (friend, co-worker, distant cousin, ...) to stay at my house until they picked themselves up again. But, in business relationships, governed not by interpersonal feelings but by the ability to meet obligations, I am kind, courteous, never yell, but will speak firmly, and carefully outline what I want, and document it. Unfortunately, that is the capitalistic way.

And now, I think it is past time to put this side-thread between everyone else and me to bed. i don't think I could add any more clarity than I have already, and I truly hope that all customers, employees, investors, the company, MLS, are able to come out of this whole and satisfied.

Now, can we go on to talking about music and audio equipment?

 

[ju10503]

...

But yes, a cult audio guru is a reasonable representation and it wasn't just bolstered by what went on at AV123, the audio press because of their lack of diligence, fostered this. He had a great supporting cast that echoed the virtues of Mark Schifter and knowingly or unknowingly spread lies and misinformation. A supporting cast that includes places like AffordableAudio, 6Moons, PositiveFeedback, EnjoyTheMusic, Stereophile and others. Associations with people who lend credibility to the persona like Arnie Nudell (ex of Genesis), Paul McGowan (head of PS Audio), Jason Serinus (reviewer), Wally Liederman (of Underwood Wally), Bascom King (reviewer and electronics dabbler). But this is not unknown in the annals of human history. Madoff and Jim Jones come to mind. Most who've spoken with MLS, and that includes you, find him a very warm and engaging personality. ...
[/CENTER]

Very intelligent and measured response. I enjoy civilized debate.

These points you make re. people's affinity to brands/people is very astute, and probably symptomatic of an excessively materialistic society in which people treat companies as if they were persons, insulting other actual people because they prefer amplifier Y to X, ditto with political parties, personalities, ... Have you ever seen the debates on stock market forums? My brother is into those, and people get very nasty (naturally $$$ is a motive there as well).

The collusion between manufacturers and the audiophile "press" is also disturbing. Seems like an old boys club. I take almost all reviewers with a bushel of salt, especially when they lionize individuals and not products. I read a couple of small circulation mags like "The Audio Critic" and "Sensible Sound" every once in a while. The rest seem to have never found a bad product. I also think there is a huge amount of snake oil out there, and plenty of willing consumers. People dig mysticism and the occult, perhaps lacking a spiritual outlet in their lives, so believing in the magical powers of products shelves in nicely with these needs.

Time to kill our little golden cows and take back the power. Seems like when you cede too much authority to others you are forced to defend them, whether it is rational or not. I have often been amused by this notion of people talking about a brand as if the brand could give a hoot about them.

Maybe we should focus a little more on people we actually know, and less on TV personalities and objects we buy.

The only allegiance I have of this sort is to certain sports teams.

 

[Chu Gai]

Very intelligent and measured response. I enjoy civilized debate.

I look at it more as a discussion than debate.

These points you make re. people's affinity to brands/people is very astute, and probably symptomatic of an excessively materialistic society in which people treat companies as if they were persons, insulting other actual people because they prefer amplifier Y to X, ditto with political parties, personalities, ... Have you ever seen the debates on stock market forums? My brother is into those, and people get very nasty (naturally $$$ is a motive there as well).

Well technically, a company is a person but I understand your point. It's not so much a materialistic society as people can get wrapped up in their own religious affiliations and just about anything. People liked to be able to have this intimate contact with MLS, the president and probably now the chief bottle washer. Often they'd say, where else can you speak to the president? Where else does the president actively engage users? Me, I saw it completely differently. I said to myself, why was the President of a company wasting his time making partial sentence responses to everyone when he ought to be running the company? Why isn't his finger not on really improving quality? Why wasn't it spent overseeing how monies were spent? Why was he so fiscally irresponsible? Why did he go ahead with the Cali Uniaudio thing which has been plagued by poor management, fiscal problems, and abysmal quality? Why a lot of things.

The collusion between manufacturers and the audiophile "press" is also disturbing. Seems like an old boys club. I take almost all reviewers with a bushel of salt, especially when they lionize individuals and not products. I read a couple of small circulation mags like "The Audio Critic" and "Sensible Sound" every once in a while. The rest seem to have never found a bad product. I also think there is a huge amount of snake oil out there, and plenty of willing consumers. People dig mysticism and the occult, perhaps lacking a spiritual outlet in their lives, so believing in the magical powers of products shelves in nicely with these needs.

For sure. There's a lot of cover your arse going on and they're not looking out for the consumer. I've seen products like amps reviewed in Stereophile where no matter how it's hooked up they'll still get a level of audible hum. Why isn't it called junk and put on the Stereophile "If you love to buy shite" list?

Time to kill our little golden cows and take back the power. Seems like when you cede too much authority to others you are forced to defend them, whether it is rational or not. I have often been amused by this notion of people talking about a brand as if the brand could give a hoot about them.

Well with respect to AV123, I agree. With respect to the raffles, if you can tell the whole world how much you love a person, what a good friend they are, how you ache for their pain and to assuage it you'll run a raffle and keep all the money, what kind of a man are you? When you run a couple of raffles for the ballet company your granddaughter dances for and only give 25% what kind of a grandfather are you? There has been no cause, no tragedy even those of epic proportions, no illness, no person, friend or blood, that has not been exploited. He lies like a rug.

Maybe we should focus a little more on people we actually know, and less on TV personalities and objects we buy.

The only allegiance I have of this sort is to certain sports teams.

I was so looking forward to Dodgers/Yankees but I can live with Phillies/Yankees.

 

[andy_c]

so, i really want to wrap this up, because it isn't really accomplishing much of anything, but i personally cannot state that "they got screwed," because i don't have the facts, ergo my use of the word "feel." as to my sincerity, your decision.

If you don't have the facts, the prudent thing to do is simply reserve judgment. Saying that someone "feels they got screwed" is not reserving judgment. It's an explicit claim that what went on is in a gray area. Making such a claim in a way that's not unfounded requires knowing the facts. The facts are all in this thread. You're simply too lazy to look them up. And yet you're all too eager to pass judgment on the victims (that they should have contacted their credit card companies, should have sued, etc.). Matt even gave you a list of links. Have you even read a single one of them? Some people have actually read this thread in its entirety, including all the links as well, before saying a single word. If you do, and you have the empathy you claim to have (a big "if" in my view), you'll be singing a different tune.

 

[Chu Gai]

In hindsight you are correct but to me at the time, the fact that the president of the company responded to my complaint on the forum and took action($), introduced a personal touch sorely lacking in today's world of impersonal transactions. I was buying a very nice product at a very good price from a man who cared. He cared about me and all of his clients. Even better, he cared about his employees in Colombia and he cared about little sick children in the hospital. All of this made my purely materialistic act of buying a thing seem almost like I was doing something to help all of those people myself. But in the end, it was all too good to be true and MLS just wanted to buy a red Ferrari for himself. And, I didn't get taken for a cent but still feel angry for having been deceived...

Sure, I can see that POV, django1. And maybe it's through hindsight that we can see that he was always on the forums no matter where he was. However, there ought to have been a person sufficiently empowered to respond and act upon complaints with only the extraordinary ones requiring the guest appearance. There were a number of times problems had to be resolved because emails were missed, lost, misplaced, and all that. Part of that you can blame on the employee(s) but a large part may be because MLS never had a good CRM software program in place. There's only so much you can do with QuickBooks. Part you can blame on the clusterphuck when it came to who gave orders and vague or non-existent delineation of responsibilities. I've spoken to former employees who have told me stories about how MLS would give a certain set of instructions. Those would be countermanded by Suzanne. Later in the day his wife would come in and change those to something else. Now granted, anyone can make the point about former employees having an ax to grind but I've heard it from more than one source and they weren't all manning the phones.

This was a guy who could've had it all. He really could've been a player of a major sort. Now where is he? Answering phones, helping to load up a customer's truck, posing for pictures, screwing in drivers and judging by the quality of products coming out of 123, screwing customers. Not all but even with the paltry trickle of products and the lack of posting activity on 123 you still hear stories about problems. At least a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[stevo238]

so, i really want to wrap this up, because it isn't really accomplishing much of anything, but i personally cannot state that "they got screwed," because i don't have the facts, ergo my use of the word "feel." as to my sincerity, your decision.

Most or all of your remarks indicate that it's all the customers fault. Do you really believe that Schifter did anything wrong? He's indicated just that on many occasions or is it just because you've had a good relationship with him, he's a great guy. Your bone of contention seems to be the stupidity of others. Many of those "others" were once great AV123 customers. I would compare you to another part time poster here named Mac. Like him, he made no judgements ala your "because I don't have the facts" comment above.

For a guy who says he'll take on any business for screwing him, you sure don't have any empathy for the screwed customers of AV123. Your comments come across as disingenuous.

 

[heavyharmonies]

Well, just imagine that one day you have a problem with an av123 product and the nice man that let you keep that a stock thing says " this situation breaks my heart and we are diligently working on a solution. Our Chinese supplier says we should have the replacement parts in x time". Do you call your credit card company or do you give the nice man a little time?

If you're smart you call your credit card company. You can always reorder/repay once vendor has product in hand.

People are too trusting. Either that or I'm entirely too cynical and jaded. I always assume that people are out to rip me off and I protect myself accordingly. I hope for the best but plan for the worst.

For example:

I've been buying and selling on eBay for 11 years now, both purchases and sales up to the mid-4 figures. I've got over 4000 transactions under my belt. I've heard every story in the book, but I've only been taken a handful of times, and of those only once did I ever lose money out of pocket.

I have only ever purchased with PayPal, and if it's over $50 a credit-card-funded PayPal payment (two layers of protection). If I hit 40 days from payment and I have either not received merchandise or there are problems, I file a claim, REGARDLESS of the situation with the seller. Even if I fully believe the seller is being honest, I file a claim.

Why? To keep my options open and protect my interests. I have filed claims against some of the nicest people in the world, who ultimately have made the situation right (or the merchandise turned up/was resent and I cancelled the claim). I always tell them that I mean no disrespect and am not implying anything negative towards them, but in order to protect myself I must proceed in order to maintain recourse. The majority of reputable sellers understand this. If one complains at this point, that is when you can start suspecting shady/unethical behavior.

I use eBay and PayPal for illustrative purposes, but the same holds true for credit card purchases.

Know the rules, regulations, and restrictions of your payment method. Once you are within days of the claim/chargeback expiration, file the claim and sort it out later. Protect yourself at all costs and ignore the snake oil and sob stories.

If you are unsure how long you can make a chargeback, call your credit card company. Spend the time to learn how long you have to try and resolve issues on your own, after which you hand it off to the credit card company.

People want to believe that others are "good" and will give the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately the unscrupulous prey upon the tendency and exploit it to their advantage.

Shoot from the hip, chargeback first and ask questions later...

P.S. Preorders of any kind are a BAD idea.

P.P.S. Please do not assume that I am either supporting AV123 or chastising the people who were harmed by MLS. I have no dog in that fight. To be honest, I have made a single purchase from AV123, and I was happy with both the merchandise and the interaction with AV123 staff. But buying in-stock merchandise is a far cry from a preorder. I wouldn't do it.

 

[stevo238]

I think ju10503 and heavyharmonies are one in the same.

 

[MinusTheBear]

A new quality control issue that seems to popping up frequently from new AV123 owners- loose screws securing the amp/driver. .

I can see someone posting this type of thing on a very rare occasion but when multiple people start posting these complaints of their new sub not operating properly because of this it starts to boogle my mind. How these sorts of things get past quality control inspection is beyond me ....it never ends

 

[gonk]

I think the advise of paying via credit card and filing claims as needed - no matter what promises are being made - is good. For all we know, there were individuals who did exactly this, although they didn't mention it on the forums. Would this advise have benefited others as well? Very likely, although it would not have been a cure-all. It would not have helped any of the pre-pays, though, or the products that suffered failures, or particularly the raffles. There's more here than the issue of buying in-stock vs. ordering/pre-paying for goods not yet in inventory. Some people were never interested in the pre-pay deals or in shaping their entire systems around products that were still on the drawing board. Some people were never comfortable with the concept of the raffles and thus never contributed to them. I suspect that both ju10503 and heavyharmonies fall into one or both categories, and if they do then they would find me there to keep them company. For other people, AV123 very effectively used internet forums to draw them in to the business and hold on to them as repeat customers. Some of that was through products that people liked, but some of it was a direct result of very effective marketing (see the buzz that surrounded products like the RSC-500 and Reference 200). Both groups were susceptible to getting burned by failed sub amps that left subs useless or raffle donations that may or may not have reached the intended charity.

 

[Chu Gai]

A new quality control issue that seems to popping up frequently from new AV123 owners- loose screws securing the amp/driver. .

Also stripped threads but that's what you get when you screw into bare MDF. They could've used t-nuts but seeing as Cali can't seem to glue veneer, would you trust them putting those in? Also, there've been some reports of gasketing issues. All combined those subs are flapping like a nude, severely camel-toed hooker standing with her legs apart in a strong breeze.

I can see someone posting this type of thing on a very rare occasion but when multiple people start posting these complaints of their new sub not operating properly because of this it starts to boogle my mind. How these sorts of things get past quality control inspection is beyond me ....it never ends

Shifty wrote that he'd have the people putting those in check the torque settings.

 

[heavyharmonies]

I think ju10503 and heavyharmonies are one in the same.

So anyone who doesn't outright slam AV123 at every single opportunity is automatically a troll? Please. I have absolutely no tolerance for such immature idiocy.

To address your contention, I'd like one of the mods to run an IP address lookup against my userID and ju10503 to confirm that we are NOT the same person.

 

[Chu Gai]

So anyone who doesn't outright slam AV123 at every single opportunity is automatically a troll? Please. I have absolutely no tolerance for such immature idiocy.

Of course not. You're entitled to your opinion and the criteria you use to evaluate or buy from a company. I have no desire to shout you down.

To address your contention, I'd like one of the mods to run an IP address lookup against my userID and ju10503 to confirm that we are NOT the same person.

Myself, I didn't take the comment to mean that the two names were posting from the same computer and were in fact the same person. I took it as he felt you were both cut from the same cloth. But hey, it's all OK

 

[stevo238]

So anyone who doesn't outright slam AV123 at every single opportunity is automatically a troll? Please. I have absolutely no tolerance for such immature idiocy.

To address your contention, I'd like one of the mods to run an IP address lookup against my userID and ju10503 to confirm that we are NOT the same person.

I know you don't have many posts but you have to start somewhere. That doesn't make you a troll, just a little petulant. Intolerance is evidence of impotence. Chu was right.

 

[heavyharmonies]

Myself, I didn't take the comment to mean that the two names were posting from the same computer and were in fact the same person. I took it as he felt you were both cut from the same cloth. But hey, it's all OK

I read it differently, the implication being one person using alternate userIDs to give the appearance of supporting opinions, etc.

Whatever. *shrug*

 

[Chu Gai]

I know you don't have many posts but you have to start somewhere. That doesn't make you a troll, just a little petulant. Intolerance is evidence of impotence. Chu was right.

Wait a second. I just looked at the commercial for Cialis Don't be sayin' there's no grease in my gun.

 

[stevo238]

Not to worry. You ARE the man!

 

[cmryan821]

Ok, I've had nothing but good experiences with av123 and Mark, him speaking to me on the phone re technical advice, emailing me promptly, etc. re two purchases I made.

So, I have to ask a rather obvious question - how were the items paid for and when they were 1 week late why didn't your friend contact his credit card company?

If this is on the rest of the posts, forgive me, but I refuse to read 165+ pages of this.

Yeah this is on the rest of the thread but I don't mind posting again b/c some of your posts have gotten under my skin.

I paid with paypal on 9/12/08. I didn't contact my bank or paypal a week after they were late b/c it never even occurred to me that he had screwed me over. While I never posted or read very often at the av123 forums I did notice how highly everyone thought of mls. It did reinforce the idea that it was safe to buy from the company/mls. He also gave me this sob story about how his friend(who the speakers actually belonged to) was going through a messy divorce and that he appreciated my patience. I had never been shafted after buying stuff online for years so I just expected that I would receive what I paid for.

Since January, I've contacted mls MANY times and gotten nothing but excuses and bs every time. I contacted my bank and paypal but I was too late to do anything about it. You are 100% correct that I should have contacted my bank or paypal sooner. I've also contacted the Colorado Attorney General's Office but they don't seem to be able to do anything since it was technically a transaction with an individual and not a business. I've asked a friend who is an attorney about any possible recourse and he says that the relatively low amount makes it difficult to do anything that would be financially worthwhile. I've pretty much accepted the fact that I got screwed and I won;t be receiving anything back.

Call me naive if you want(I deserve it), but don't post this garbage about how I'm taking the non-adult road by posting here. If anything the only recourse I have is letting others know that this is not an honest man and they should be wary of buying anything from him.