DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

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GirgleMirt

GirgleMirt

Audioholic
They've always been overhyped by the legions though. While you're saying that you're not sure if the Refs1 lived up to their expectations at 1200$, quite a few affirmed they actually competed vs products priced much higher.

Measurements have been mentioned, Strata: http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/av123_strata_mini/ Ref1: http://stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/av123_onix_reference_1_mkii_loudspeaker/index4.html 760s, I remember seeing them, and they were quite bad, but can't find them...

Anyhow, there's always been some more rational opinions posted, but they seemed to be few and apart, and really not that usual, plus anyway they've always been burrowed by the hype and raves of the fanboys in most places and let's face it, if you weren't hyping them also, then you were accused of being a basher and an hater... But you basically never read anything which wasn't hype on av123.com, or even a few other big forums like avsforum... Which is quite fishy. But there was some reasonable reviews out there to be found... Ex:

http://forums.soundandvisionmag.com/showthread.php?t=439800

http://forums.soundandvisionmag.com/showthread.php?t=440787 (funny the MTM arrived with a defective tweeter :rolleyes:)

very different than what read on av123.com don't you think?

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/767603/m11228187/#m11228187
this one is interesting because it addresses the hype, imho.

have had approximately $70K of gear pass in and out of my hands during that time. My current speakers retail for $9K and I have owned at least four other pairs of speakers that surpass $4K, including one for $10K. I have owned several $k worth of amplification as well. My current amp is only $800. Yes, it does the $9K speakers justice, amazingly so.

Some years ago, I chanced upon the Onix/AV123 brand and decided to try it out. I went with RS750 sigs, along wth RSS300, RS150, RS200 (the famed 'bigfoot'), UFW sub and later, some ELTs which I never used but sold a year later. This was for my first HT room (separate from the music room, which was then my real passion). I did try out the 750s in my main system for a short time, with what I recall to be around $5K in amplification.

Back in the HT room (projector, 100" screen), I used these speakers with moderate AV receivers for a while. HK7200, Panny XR50, Denon 28something, etc. Although I enjoy experimenting with gear in my audio system, my intention for HT was to buy once and forget about anything else for the loong term.

Below, I will quote some of the people in this thread so far, and offer my comments. I understand there will be many who will find issue with what I have to say. That's ok. I'm not pushing any agenda, and will neither benefit nor lose based on what I (or you) say. My apologies for not citing names with the quotes, but they will be easy to research if you wish.
==========================

Visually the finish on both systems are done really well, though I like the shape of the rocket a little better. After considering the 2-4x price difference between the B&W and Rockets, I went with the Rockets and don't regret it.
I have heard B&W, both high and low end. I did not like them enough to buy them either, but they do have good sound quality. I feel they are somewhat overhyped, but not too much. Buying Rockets, however, left me feeling shortchanged based on sound quality (SQ). Yes, their finish is very nice and if you are buying gear based on looks alone, these offer above-average value for money. However, to me it is all about SQ. Looks are nice but they come a distant second to SQ.

You don't find too many companies that you can ask the owner directly about new products. His passion for quality/affordable audio is unmatched in the industry.
True, to a point. My reading is that MLS is a brilliant marketer and a fairly nice guy to boot. He makes himself available quite a bit, and often rides the forums threads on his site. I would offer the POV that he may be passionate, but not to the extent that he forgets it is a business. As many might point out, not that there's anything wrong with that. However, I would like to correct the scattered opinion that he is Santa in mufti.

Incredible "deal" on speakers that nobody has ever heard of - CHECK etc (ironic post).
I agree with this poster by and large. The OP does smell fishy to me, but it may be legit. Granted he doesn't work there, but maybe he's closely related to someone who does? We'll never know.

You're right to be skeptical, but in the end, this deal is legit. And yes, you can tel the difference between these speakers and the fry's Polk deals, and the Best Buy Klipsch. Whether you care or not will inform how you make you home theater purchases.
Interesting about the Polks. I bought the 300s just last month at about $70 each, for a home that I am selling and need some speakers in, mainly for looks but they should have decent sound. The Polks deliver very well in this regard. Giveaway price (literally in my case, as I will be giving them away), quite good (but not outrageous) looks and ok SQ. Just what I needed for this purpose, but I wouldn't use them for myself. Bass is bloaty and clarity is weaker than average. I can't think of any Onix speakers that would fit my bill as well (would have to spend more to get equivalent SQ, (even to the Polks!), although better looks would come along for the ride - but you know how I feel about that).

I used to have a pair of REF1. They good okay speakers, but not as good as their hypes. As for price, I heard there is a "1/4 cost rule" in audio products, so at 50% off, they should still have 100% margin.
Well said, and my industry friends can confirm the numbers.
If you love music or home theatre understand these speakers are by all accounts EXTREMELY good sounding and looking.
Quite good looking, depending on your taste. Good sounding- no. Not even for the price. Honest.

Resale is iffy -- Onix/Rockets are a relatively unknown brand compared to Klipsch for example. You might be able to fetch a decent resale value on specialized audio forums such as Audiogon, AVS Forum, or even on AV123's own forum in their classified area.
Resale IS iffy, and that is largely a function of the fact that those in the know, know that AV123 often blows out inventory, either as 'B stock' or 'specials', such as now. Thus, they compare resale to the sale price when new, not list price. Fair enough, but that is why resale is lower compared to list price vs other brands. Know this going in. There is no free lunch.

This seems like the HostPC of speakers. They are always having a 2 for 1 or half off sale. So you feel really stupid if you paid full price.
See above. Yes, never pay full price for these. During the year or so I hung around the AV123 forum, I would say I observed (casually, of course) that perhaps 90% of owners had bought the speakers on sale.

These are beautifully made and sound insane.
Er, no. They are made in China, with reasonable build quality but with some disappointing QC experience on my part. See further below.

Isn't there some sort of rule against self-promoting? The post seems okay but I feel like I just sat through a sleazy sales pitch...
Ditto.
 
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GirgleMirt

GirgleMirt

Audioholic
-----End of quotes/comments. Summary below.---------

IMO this brand is more about extremely clever marketing than real quality or great customer service. Pricing is artifically high so they can put them "on sale" to attract those who must score a bargain. They are REASONABLY responsive to issues but will not go crazy as some have implied. For example, one binding post on one of my 750s just fell out one day, less than a year into ownership, when I was changing speaker cable (and yes, I knew what I was doing and was careful, as I always am). I have never had this happen with any speakers, even some cheap ones from BB that I once tried for grins. The rep had me take the speaker to a local shop (which I had to locate myself) and provide him a receipt, which he then reimbursed me for. Fine, ok. But to qualify as insane CS, I would expect something over and above, like a freebie or goodwill gesture for the trouble of finding the shop, taking the speaker there, etc. Then there was the subwoofer that died in about 3 months. Because I bought B stock, the rep made sure I knew he was doing me a big favor by exchanging it for no charge. Ok, just do it. Then he sends me a mismatched color (I bought all the original speakers matched) but because it was called by the same name, he "couldn't do anything about it" even after I sent him pictures showing a glaringly obvious difference.

In about a year or so, I began to realize the sound was, for lack of a better word, 'off'. Remember HT was not my primary passion, and the only time I actually had the speakers playing was when I was watching a movie on the big screen. No fine-tune type of listening like I did with the main system. But I started to get uncomfortable, and realized the sound was not in line with my expectations. By this time and after several years of audio hobbying, I had a fairly well-trained ear and even if I do say so myself, can tell good sound quite easily when I am paying attention.

I came across a review of the Infinity 360s in Stereophile and scored a deal on a pair and replaced the 750s with it, resulting in, no hype, a night and day improvement. The 360s (new, but on sale) cost me around $400, or about half of the 750 Rockets' B-stock price. Granted, they are a dull black ash and not glossy-shiny like the Rockets, but see my comments about 'SQ first'. I still own the 360s and am pleased to use them in the HT in my new home. I recently watched the Eagles Melbourne on HD-DVD, and played it in 2-channel stereo, sub not activated, and the show was extremely enjoyable and 'live'... I did not miss a thing: clarity, warmth, musicality, bass, ALL present and in balance.

I sold the other speakers within a short time after that, and stopped hanging out at AV123.com. The member base there is nothing short of rabid (and I understand there is crossover into this forum; no skin off my nose). If you have ANYTHING negative to post about the company or its people, they WILL rip you to shreds and leave very little on the bone. All that is ok, I told myself, as long as the SQ is there. But when I got past the looks, the fan base, and the marketing, there was nothing left.

I almost forgot - I also owned the famed SP3 integrated tubed amplifier, this one for my main system. For a while, which in this case means exactly one week. Enough said.

All of the above is obviously IMO. And like a certain body part, everyone has an opinion, and I respect and regard those who already love AV123 and its products. But this post is directed at potential owners, those who are looking for sound advice (pardon the pun). As I indicated, I have absolutely no dog in this fight. This forum has helped me quite a bit and hopefully this is a little giving back. I would not (and could not) post these comments on AV123, not because the mods would censor them (they wouldn't, but they WOULD have to close the thread as it would become REALLY nasty in very short order). Feel free to contact me with genuine questions, but if you are looking for a fight I am, regretfully, not available.

Lastly, my apologies for the very long post. I hope my target audience at least was able to make it all the way through.
imho, this company has carburated on hype, or in other words, exaggerations... Every single one of their speaker is hyped to hell... And that's all you ever see... And the funny thing is, for a long time, seemed like only a very small minority saw it that way... Hell, even today, seems sort of this way...

And then you even have the pricing, and the sales... Ref1, sell 1500$, hyped as being as good as 3000$ speakers, then suddenly, a special comes, they're sold 50% off or something... And anyone just quickly looking at their hype gets had and buys them, at the price they probably should have always been sold in the first place... Anyhow, that's a whole different can of worms... And add the raffles, cult like following with the 'family' thing and 'mad' discounts... IMHO, they've always been more about hype than anything else.
 
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GirgleMirt

GirgleMirt

Audioholic
I just wanted to say that hyping a product is neither unethical, immoral or illegal.
That could be argued depending on the definition of hype... "publicize in an exaggerated and often misleading manner", "Promotion or advertisement; especially, exaggerated claims; To promote heavily; to advertise or build up". I wouldn't say that it's particularly moral or ethical. Anyhow, one company seemed to consistently stand out on the over the top marketing and fanboyism, all it took was 10 minutes of browsing their forums and you'd have a very good idea of what I'm talking about. Everybody seemed to be high on something there... It was scary.

I remember an instance where Schifter was trying to lift up one of his speakers and accidentally let out a loud fart... Everybody in the forum nearly had an orgasm, dozens of members were injured after they fought each other for the honor of being the first to preorder some of it. They also commented on how that fart was going to redefine value and they just couldn't believe how he could put out something this magnificent at such a low cost... I know at least 3 members died of heart attacks after reading the price. It was something very special.
 
J

jvgillow

Full Audioholic
I see hype in almost every speaker line that is marketed online. Sometimes from the company itself, sometimes from professional reviewers, and sometimes from the end buyers.

The only way to know what's hype and what's not is to hear them for yourself. Overzealous marketing (a la Bose) can get you lots of sales but typically not from an educated audience. av123 has (had?) lots of "fans" who have been in the audio hobby for a while and have heard other manufacturer's product lines. Not everybody liked the same models though, some people were strictly fans of the Rocket line, some people loved the sound of the X-series or the open-baffle units, and some are only satisfied by the high performance line source models. One thing mls did do, probably too aggressively, was expand the product line horizontally.
 
Soundman

Soundman

Audioholic Field Marshall
What did you compare them to? Did you do any blind testing?

Okay, I'll put it out there that I've never been sold on av123 products' value for the money. This whole debacle has me wondering just how dirty the audio industry is. Are good reviews in exchange for ad dollars and comp equipment for reviewers?

Anyone remember the 740s measuring terribly for Stereophile and av123 claiming the speakers they measured where photo specimens and not "working speakers" then quietly discontinued them a few months later?
Let me just say that this is not what this thread is about really. Sure they had some QC issues recently, mainly with the MFW15 amps, but I believe it's hard to argue that they have not delivered some great products. Let me make it clear, I am not recommending the company right now due to many many issues over there, but let's stop the nonsense about them not having some very nice speakers for the money. Even Audioholics has given their products very nice write-ups (rave reviews, if you will) in the past and I trust their opinion over anyone else on the web personally. Let's face it, we all prefer a different type of sound so some may not prefer their prodcucts for whatever reason and that is fine, but that has nothing to do with the quality of that product. Let me use the Rocket RS850 Sigs. for example. This speaker has faced off against the Studio 100's (they sound very similar to the 100's) which happen to be a very respectable speaker and has faired very well there, among other competition.

Also, how 'bout that Rocket "Bigfoot"? I'm sorry but I haven't found another center channel that can even compare for that price.

One other area where I have seen the Rockets in particular really shine is pure output. let me explain. These speakers can take ally you can give them and just beg for more. I mean, you can feed them massive amounts of power and they sound better the more you give them. Other speakers i've used just can't keep up in this department. Other speakers I've tried start introducing all kinds of distortion at those kinds of levels. They just can't handle it. I've personally compared the Rockets to some well respected speakers in this area and it was no competition. One speaker in particular just lost control and actually blew the tweeter. Oops! :)

Anyway, my point is that these speakers in particular have excellent built quality with a lot of punch and slam and that's why I use them for HT use. So please knock MLS all you want, but as for performance for the money, some of their products like the Rockets are quite excellent! :cool:
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
In your post this morning at 123, Gonk, was the use of the word illicit an intentional misspelling of elicit?

Oh, and Jess, if you're reading this, stick it.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
In your post this morning at 123, Gonk, was the use of the word illicit an intentional misspelling of elicit?

Oh, and Jess, if you're reading this, stick it.
I got a chuckle out of Jess' post. Isn't that why they censor posts over there... because they are unhappy with their interpretation of the post?

It is their own little safe haven they can retreat to when the going gets rough.
 
the grunt

the grunt

Audioholic
GirgleMirt said:
That could be argued depending on the definition of hype... "publicize in an exaggerated and often misleading manner", "Promotion or advertisement; especially, exaggerated claims; To promote heavily; to advertise or build up". I wouldn't say that it's particularly moral or ethical. Anyhow, one company seemed to consistently stand out on the over the top marketing and fanboyism, all it took was 10 minutes of browsing their forums and you'd have a very good idea of what I'm talking about. Everybody seemed to be high on something there... It was scary.

I remember an instance where Schifter was trying to lift up one of his speakers and accidentally let out a loud fart... Everybody in the forum nearly had an orgasm, dozens of members were injured after they fought each other for the honor of being the first to preorder some of it. They also commented on how that fart was going to redefine value and they just couldn't believe how he could put out something this magnificent at such a low cost... I know at least 3 members died of heart attacks after reading the price. It was something very special.
Now that’s funny.

Three years ago I was shopping for new speakers and after one look at their web page (inflated MSRPs with slashes through them) and the forum, that you’ve so aptly described in several posts, I never gave them a second thought.
 
gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
In your post this morning at 123, Gonk, was the use of the word illicit an intentional misspelling of elicit?
Arghh! (Or perhaps "giggle!") That was an unintentional misspelling. Interesting result, though.
 
gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
They've always been overhyped by the legions though. While you're saying that you're not sure if the Refs1 lived up to their expectations at 1200$, quite a few affirmed they actually competed vs products priced much higher.
I've long been a bit cautious about the true price/performance value of AV123's products, specifically because of the zealotry with which they were supported. I've always told people that speaker buying is a very personal matter, because it depends a great deal on individual taste. I've got a co-worker with some very good B&W speakers, and I've also spent some time using an older pair of B&W's that belong to my father-in-law. Both of them like these speakers very much. I've listened to them in good conditions and with good supporting systems. I even set up my co-worker's system and dialed it in for him (Rotel processor and amp, Meridian CD player). I also heard another set of B&W's recently paired with Proceed electronics (although a less-than-optimal room layout didn't do those B&W's any favors). In all of those cases, the B&W's have never appealed to me as much as the Paradigm and Outlaw speakers I've had in my home. They just don't suit my tastes, which is of course why I never bought them for my own use. B&W still makes damn good speakers, though, and I still suggest that folks who are interested in them spend some time listening to them. Not everyone will like a speaker, no matter how good it is. The sometimes rabid zealotry you could encounter from AV123 supporters didn't seem to acknowledge that fact. It didn't help that each time they revamped a product (the Rocket Sigs, or the X Encores), the changes were often described as revolutionary even though the previous product received so much acclaim.

None of that meant the speakers were bad, though - they could still be really good speakers. I think that what really got me was Mark's habit of making gushing pronouncements about products that were still napkin sketches or otherwise very early in development. I never trusted that - I've done enough design to know that it's terribly difficult to predict exactly where you will end up when you are just starting. You have to have some goals in place, but that doesn't mean you've had a chance to prove that the goals can be achieved for the budget you have in mind. I could rattle off any number of projects I've worked on where the end product had to be revised to fit the budget so the owner could afford to build it, or where the project simply never happened.
I see hype in almost every speaker line that is marketed online. Sometimes from the company itself, sometimes from professional reviewers, and sometimes from the end buyers.
Any manufacturer (online or otherwise) is going to do their best to compliment their own products, of course, and any time you read a manufacturer's product information you have to keep that in mind. The same is frequently true for owners of a speaker. After all, if someone doesn't like a speaker, they aren't likely to spend a lot of time with that speaker. There are also some reviewers who tend to get a bit more carried away in their words than others - that's why many of us have certain reviewers that we pay more attention to as well as some that we skip over entirely. In AV123's case, though, I do think that the company has tended to wax a bit more eloquent about their products than many of their competitors - particularly in that "too soon for anybody to know" stage of development.
 
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cschang

Audioholic Chief
There can be no doubt about this. MLS is the proverbial "sell fridges to Eskimos" type of salesman. Not only that but he would then sell an upgraded fridge, which is all that and more, to the very same Eskimo. A year later, he would sell the best ever super fridge with the new freon and the rosewood panels to the same Eskimo. It's all in the waf... Then the napkin drawing of the uber cubeguide ice cube making fridge on pre-pay to that poor Eskimo.

Up until the pre-pay I don't have any problem with it.
OK...that was funny.....and I agree with it.

His skills in doing this shows how he is able to string many people along.
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
Why has this thread gone from what Mark has done to bashing people who buy AV123 speakers? I don't like being called a fanboy or a zealot and I don't think for a second that I am. Maybe some of you should think about what you are trying to accomplish here because some of you guys sound like a bunch of jealous teenagers who are mad that somebody didn't buy your speaker of choice. I understand you are mad at Mark, but now taking it out on anybody who posted on the AV123 forum? This has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I feel I have a lot to add to the original topic but I don't I want to participate in this juvenile pissing contest about who is a better speaker shopper. I am out of here.
 
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cschang

Audioholic Chief
Jed...you are right. This should not be specifically about the products, but since it is part of the business that MLS is in, they will come up.
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
No, sorry, this has gone from a lot of people divulging important and serious information to the same old group shooting arrows at all things AV123. Nothing new to see here anymore, just an old fashioned AV123 bash which has ZERO to do with MLS stealing from charities or taking money for prepays. Now the last dozen pages are just a group of serious haters ripping how stupid the people there are, how crappy the products are, etc. Enjoy guys, but notice there is almost nobody left here that actually owns AV123 products or has first hand experience with the problems at hand. I wonder why that is? Its too bad this thread was hijacked by bitter AV123 haters, but that is now what it is. Good luck getting to the bottom of this. I will work with people privately but I have no intention of joining this pow wow.
 
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cschang

Audioholic Chief
I understand where you are coming from, Jed, and sorry it is causing you not to want to participate in the thread, but I also think there were some fair opinions posted about the products.

That said, I hope you, and whoever you are working with, are able to get some issues resolved, and if you make headway, I also hope you post about it.
 
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NicolasKL

Full Audioholic
Why has this thread gone from what Mark has done to bashing people who buy AV123 speakers? I don't like being called a fanboy or a zealot and I don't think for a second that I am. Maybe some of you should think about what you are trying to accomplish here because some of you guys sound like a bunch of jealous teenagers who are mad that somebody didn't buy your speaker of choice. I understand you are mad at Mark, but now taking it out on anybody who posted on the AV123 forum? This has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I feel I have a lot to add to the original topic but I don't I want to participate in this juvenile pissing contest about who is a better speaker shopper. I am out of here.
I think you're taking things a little too personally.
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
I think you're taking things a little too personally.
Thats because it is personal to me and a lot of other people who quit posting in this thread. I keep in touch with a lot of the victims and the way they are being called idiots and fanboys who wouldn't know a decent speaker if it hit them in the face is way off topic, way harsh, and extremely insulting considering they were trying to donate money to charity and now they are getting maligned by a bunch of people who have no skin in this game. Its mean spirited and it is directed towards the victims and only the victims. Sorry if me not appreciating being called a brainless fanboy and taking this really seriously offends anyone. I have a great sense of humor, but not about this. So you are wrong, I don't take this a little too personal because to me it is extremely personal.
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
I will just apologize for my tantrum up front. I am having a bad day. I stand by what I said, but I shouldn't have voiced it like I did. I will do my best to stay out of this thread from now on. Sorry for the thread crapping.
 
Soundman

Soundman

Audioholic Field Marshall
Why has this thread gone from what Mark has done to bashing people who buy AV123 speakers? I don't like being called a fanboy or a zealot and I don't think for a second that I am. Maybe some of you should think about what you are trying to accomplish here because some of you guys sound like a bunch of jealous teenagers who are mad that somebody didn't buy your speaker of choice. I understand you are mad at Mark, but now taking it out on anybody who posted on the AV123 forum? This has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I feel I have a lot to add to the original topic but I don't I want to participate in this juvenile pissing contest about who is a better speaker shopper. I am out of here.
JED M is right. The quality of their speakers is not in question. There is no refuting this. It's purely a matter of taste. Their products compare very well with many other speaker brands. Let me just quote myself and leave it at that:

Let me just say that this is not what this thread is about really. Sure they had some QC issues recently, mainly with the MFW15 amps, but I believe it's hard to argue that they have not delivered some great products. Let me make it clear, I am not recommending the company right now due to many many issues over there, but let's stop the nonsense about them not having some very nice speakers for the money. Even Audioholics has given their products very nice write-ups (rave reviews, if you will) in the past and I trust their opinion over anyone else on the web personally. Let's face it, we all prefer a different type of sound so some may not prefer their prodcucts for whatever reason and that is fine, but that has nothing to do with the quality of that product. Let me use the Rocket RS850 Sigs. for example. This speaker has faced off against the Studio 100's (they sound very similar to the 100's) which happen to be a very respectable speaker and has faired very well there, among other competition.

Also, how 'bout that Rocket "Bigfoot"? I'm sorry but I haven't found another center channel that can even compare for that price.

One other area where I have seen the Rockets in particular really shine is pure output. let me explain. These speakers can take ally you can give them and just beg for more. I mean, you can feed them massive amounts of power and they sound better the more you give them. Other speakers i've used just can't keep up in this department. Other speakers I've tried start introducing all kinds of distortion at those kinds of levels. They just can't handle it. I've personally compared the Rockets to some well respected speakers in this area and it was no competition. One speaker in particular just lost control and actually blew the tweeter. Oops! edit: (and this was a very popular, well regarded speaker too.)

Anyway, my point is that these speakers in particular have excellent built quality with a lot of punch and slam and that's why I use them for HT use. So please knock MLS all you want, but as for performance for the money, some of their products like the Rockets are quite excellent!:cool:
 
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Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Jed, I can appreciate your POV. However, I don't see all the segues as attempts to bash users or AV123/MLS. In some respects, let's say the RSL-II, they speak to the effectiveness of dropping well known industry names (Bascom King, Wally Liederman, Arnie Nudell, etc.), some proposed parts, pricing structures, and some CAD drawings on getting people to pony up $6,000 to be beta testers/early adopters/get the final speaker for <$13,000. These are good men and women, some who undoubtably were already pleased AV123 owners who simply got duped. To some extent, you see this in the car industry at major auto shows where you see prototypes although you don't see the manufacturer hitting up individual people for funds to buy the prototypes. I look at these folks in much the same way as I look at Bernie Madoff's investors. They were conned and made bad financial decisions. Hell, Steven Spielberg was one of those investors. So were well known and respected banks and institutions. They were taken in by his name, clientele portfolio, and the perceived liklihood they'd be getting something more than they could elsewhere.

So, as to whether addressing such things takes away from the issues of refunds and charities, IMO it doesn't. I think it direcly impacts matters because it speaks to the man himself. If you sat back and found that people

  • liked the fireside chats
  • thought you were the salt of the earth for donating product for raffles whose proceeds were supposed to go to charities and folks who were down on their luck
  • had no problem in rationalizing problems and product delays
  • defended you and your company vociferously

it's easy to see how MLS knew he could bring all that to bear on other ways to generate funds.

As to calling people pejorative names for buying their products, well that's not nice. Perhaps the only company where this is somewhat sanctioned is Bose. I do intend to speak at some later time as to whether their products as a whole represented the quality people believed they were getting and will present examples in support of such. That doesn't mean I'm calling people names. Also, shortly I intend to address the RSL-II matter more fully which will speak to the sundry statements that MLS has made in that regard over the years.

Jed, I welcome your continued active participation in this thread. We're all the richer for it.
 
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