DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[Mac11700]

Considering your over wrought rants directed at naysayers over at AV123, I'd say you've had a change of heart Mac. Your comments above suggest to me that you borrowed MLS' dancing shoes this afternoon so at best your words sound disingenuous like his. No need to hand you a shovel. I think you've buried yourself quite well.

What part of this are you not capable of understanding..

I also choose to show respect to individuals publicly until they have given a full accounting of their reasons or something they have posted.

At the time of my posting this..I had no idea of the thread being locked at av123..

I'll give him time enough to set things right..but it will be up to me how long it is..not any one here...and what I do have to say to him won't be posted on an open forum but in person.

Gonk..I am sorry the thread over there got locked..IMHO..it should not have been..It was the only place where some of your answers were being given.I cannot see how your questions or replies moved away from your original post..Hopefully it will get reopened so more answers will be given..

Stevo...I've not dug any hole for myself as far as I am concerned..I stand by my comments,and my feelings...By my speaking out at what SOME have said here and the way it has been presented..seems to have struck a chord with you..I can't help that..just as you can't help how you feel..

Mac

 

[gonk]

Gonk..I am sorry the thread over there got locked..IMHO..it should not have been..It was the only place where some of your answers were being given.I cannot see how your questions or replies moved away from your original post..Hopefully it will get reopened so more answers will be given..

I'd like to see it re-opened and used to provide answers. I'm not going to hold my breath, though. The admission of "underfunding" (a term that makes me twitch a bit every time I type it) is many months old now, and the crime itself is older still, but there's been no visible effort to right those wrongs. Hell, this thread is now over six months old, and the original poster's pursuit of a refund (for a transaction that occurred just over a year ago and never yielded the purchased hardware even though it was supposedly sitting in someone's house ready to ship out) is still absent along with many other refunds. All we have is broken promises - dates that came and went, at least one check from an account that lacked the funds to cover it, and some forum posts about how badly he feels about all of these matters. I don't have any delusions that my thread will return to life and be a pathway for real resolutions - not when four pages of posts over the course of four days yielded one post from Mark (which offered no meaningful content), one answer from Jess (who doesn't even work there anymore), and one warning from Kyle before being locked.

Here's my best effort at summarizing what we learned from that thread:

• The censorship of the forum has been relaxed, but you're going to have to walk on eggshells if you want to say anything that might offend them. Pushing any farther than I was will run into problems.
• Mark still refuses to answer direct questions on these matters. At best, he will attempt to generate some pity for the burden that the questions place on him and his workload. He will briefly suggest that a post will require him to spend all of his day with that thread. Then he won't post in the thread ever again.
• The company will take the first opportunity to halt discussions, assuming you are careful enough to avoid simply being deleted outright.

I could extrapolate from those lessons, but it would be speculation. We've got plenty of that, and none that I could add would paint any less grim a picture than already exists. I will say that I think there is value to continuing to lean on Mark and AV123 about the raffles, and if I were owed a refund I'd be leaning hard on him for at least some sort of re-payment schedule (although I doubt it would make much difference). There's no reason at this point to expect him to try to resolve the raffle debts or any other debts without pressure. There's also no reason to expect such pressure to work, but the odds at least seem better than zero...

 

[Chu Gai]

Mac, I'll tell you what I think and it doesn't just apply to you. It applies to anyone whose got a friend, a good friend, and they see that friend accused of certain things. There's disbelief. Maybe it was a misunderstanding. An oversight. Some kind of a snafu. You think it must've been just that one thing. And then people start coming forward. And you see these people were good friends of Mark too. There's this disconnect after all you know the man enough to consider him your friend. You've seen him step forward when a customer had a problem and make it right even when there was no compelling legal obligation to make it so. It doesn't make sense. But you hear more stories. Stories of one organization not getting their money. A man with an ill child. A good friend whose best friend in the world...his best friend...was dying of cancer and it wasn't years left on his clock.

And you think, something terrible must've also happened in Mark's life or the business. He made a mistake. He'll make good. He's Mark. The guy who bought all those meals, hosted dinners, brought you into his life, showed you pictures, always was friendly. There was always an excuse. He was sick, the factory screwed up, the containers were late, the orders got mixed up. There was always a story that one could hang a hat on and say, well, once that's taken care of so will the rest.

But then other people step forward and you hear how no one got their money back for RSL-II's. How people have worthless coupons. Products they paid for and have waited for over two years. You hear stories from people who got refund checks that bounced drawn on the same bank as theirs. You hear about a guy who he signed a 40K contract with him and Mark stiffed him.

And you maybe think to yourself, this is real personal stuff. It really ought to be handled in private. What's a jerk like me brining this stuff up for? But then you hear they've been trying to do it privately. They've emailed, written, texted, called, and even met face to face. They've tried for weeks, months, years.

And then you hear stories about employees, business partners, business investors, even the mothers of friends who invested, and no one has seen any total fulfillment of what they're owed. Oh, some have been paid a little. Some that he needs because at this point there's a lot of people who won't do business with him and if they do, it's cash up front.

You hear what you think is pure, unfounded speculation about where the money could've gone. And what good friend wouldn't think people are piling on making stories up? That they had secret agendas. They worked for competitors. They won't name names. Produce records. Shooting wildly in the dark.

Mac, I'm not saying you're wrong for being his friend even at this point no more than I can tell a mother not to love her son if he committed a murder. The stuff that's come out, and the stuff that hasn't come out yet, the sheer scale of it may make you see things differently. It may cause you to question yourself and your ability to evaluate people. It may not with respect to you considering him a friend.

Mark is not my friend. We've been friendly but largely in a peripheral kind of way. I look at this and I see a man who has manipulated people. A man who may well believe his lies and promises. I see a con man like none other that I can think of with respect to the audio business. I say to myself, why did 12 poor individuals cough up 72K and folks like Wally Liederman, Bascom King, Arnie Nudell not suffer any financial hardship? I see a man whose vision is not best carried out by him but must be under new management. I see other ID companies worrying somewhat if the stain that exists in Colorado has discolored their doorsteps.

By no stretch do I begrudge your friendship. If what I see is the measure of your friendship, I'd consider any person who is your friend to be lucky. Regardless though, Mac, as I'm safely able to, I'll release more information. If you don't know by now, and you should, I cross check a lot of stuff on the backend.

My best to you, Mac.

 

[gonk]

Well, Kyle's post was certainly on topic. I mean the thread was about censorship and he goes ahead and locks it. I'm surprised and think it was a bad move. The more it lasted the more we looked whiny and vindictive. I was running out of steam myself before the lock down, thinking "what now?" They could have just waited us out for a week or so. You can only repeat the same accusations so many times. To me, it just makes it seem to everybody who read that thread that even the wildest speculation about MLS is true. Could there be a more transparently false excuse to close the thread than that it is off topic?

It was getting frustrating. You ask questions, people ask why you ask, you explain why you ask, and through it all no answers arise. People even question why answers are needed. We had been sustaining a bit of debate over the last day or so, but that was already running out of steam. It would have stalled out eventually, and then what? I don't know. I had a hunch that something was coming, though. By the way, I've printed the thread to a PDF, just in case. If it ever disappears, I'll at least have that handy.

 

[JazzySmooth]

Chu, your writing is becoming "Gonk like"... nice post

 

[Chu Gai]

Chu, your writing is becoming "Gonk like"... nice post

I love the way Gonk writes. I'm still a prick though.

 

[Chu Gai]

That was "gonky". I won't comment on the other part of your statement.

No need to. Maybe you can make a post there saying you're setting up an MLS defense fund or buy some of the junk he's selling with his virtual garage sale.

 

[droht]

What's crazy is that I think mls could start to turn things around easily. Start by being honest about delivery dates. Then pick one raffle. Derek probably makes the most sense. Start paying the guy, even it is $100 a week. Do something positive. I think he could really kill some of the negative mo just by doing little positive things. Fact is, so far, he has done nothing positive. I know, someone will say he has delivered on mfw amps and some LS speakers, but not on time, or even close.

Now I'm not saying he can fix everything and turn the business completely around, but I really think he can get out from under some of the negative barrage by just taking baby steps in the right direction. I've never been in the boat he is in personally, but I have been in similar ones in my business life, where customers were ready with torches and pitchforks. The reaction is amazing when you start to do the right thing.

Unfortunately mls is still deep in a river in Egypt. He still wants to come at this with his personality turned on high and thinks he can charm and dance his way through it. This is too big, and too many folks are all over the details.

 

[Chu Gai]

No, I don't. I suggest people do what they believe they ought to do. As to other stuff, this hole that we're exploring has even more chambers and we haven't even hit the mother lode yet. Besides, any more needling and he'll start looking like this guy.

 

[stevo238]

Other than that..since I have no concrete answers about Mark for you or anyone else,I will bow out of any further posting on the subject..Have a nice day..

Mac

Ya know. I was speculating whether or not we would hear from you again today.
My speculating paid off.

 

[Jed M]

Sorry if this isn't acceptable with you or others..it's just the way I am. I don't participate in internet lynch mobs..and feel doing so isn't the best solution..even when I am effected by the individual or company.I'll use other means of seeking redress of an individual or business,ones I know will effect the solution to any personal grievances I may harbor.

Mac

Mac, I don't like confrontation all that much but what you posted here is just an outright fabrication. How fast you have forgotten 2008 when you were a bully and attack dog for ANYBODY who said something negative about MLS. You can defend Mark all you want and I am fine with that, but when you start saying stuff about how you don't participate in internet lynch mobs or speculate or whatever the hell non judging standards you claim, its just not true. You speculated all last year that the worst was behind Mark and that Mark was going to fix everything and Mark was completely honest so many times I lost count. And you accuse others of peddling irresponsible speculation? Let me just post a few of your "non internet lynch mobs" posts taken from a two day period regarding people being owed products or money last December to remind you.

12-22-08

Guys...

Don't fall for it.That is all he wants to do is to disrupt this thread. That's what they enjoy doing.There is no reason to take this persona seriously.The name may be different,but his objective is still the same.Just ignore him and don't feed him anything..he will fade into obscurity soon enough.It's Christmas time..or getting close to it..Let's all try to get along and not get our panties in a bunch over someone like this. Please

Mac


12-22-08
1st

Oh I see .It's ok for you then to take what I said out of context to fit your continuing to beat this dead horse then. I see

2nd

Mark's record for keeping his word is pretty good as far as I know in regards to what this thread is about. He stated he was going to communicate more,and he has. Didn't you get his letter ?

3rd

Why does everything the man does have to be put under your microscope or your seal of approval ? Have you even taken the time to talk to the man, to know what he has done or not ? I ask you before " why does he have to do anything to your time table." You still haven't answered that. I will for you, He doesn't. He doesn't work for you. You either buy his products or you don't.You and all the rest of us, are here on his invitation. His soon means just that Soon..to him , not you or me or any one else. When he has time to add to it he will not when you demand it, but when he is ready .He has a lot more to add,but you know, it doesn't matter what is going on to him or at the company to some insensitive people here like you fore instance . You know...what's a little car wreck with head trauma and internal bleeding stopping him for...
4th

Gee a whole year of mickey mouse bull crap by a handful of disgruntled customers doesn't spell out all of the doom & gloom you are prescribing to. This forum doesn't account for near the amount of business that you think, but then unless you never took the time to discuss this personally with Mark or anyone else at AV123 you wouldn't know that.
Know this,least you think or say that I am being insensitive to quite a few people here who do have real complaints about getting their subs fixed or some of the LS-9's delivered, I'm not. What I am talking about is the fact that many here have chosen to start in on Mark again knowing full well that some of the issue's surrounding some mind you, not all , are completely outside of Marks control. Mark has chosen to do things for the benefit of the company, and rightly so , since they are in business to make money, not just cater to the whims of some folks. Since some of the items received weren't good enough to pass inspection and be shipped on to us ( Quality control ). Again, this wasin his letter to the customers who have certain orders in que. So, (communications ) are happening where customers are concerned.He also addressed the ( shipping issue ) as well. The packaging wasn't up to their standards If the product isn't right at the manufacture, then it will be delayed until it is . It's that simple. He is taking the needed steps you say he hasn't..Maybe this is the rub, you want every thing he does to be posted here for everyone of the forum to nit pick over. He chose to do it his way, not your way. Yet you and others feel some right to tell the man how to run his business. That is what amazes me, knowing the man has probably forgotten more about running an ID company than you will ever know.Maybe I am wrong about you, If so , I apologize and suggest you call Mark at your earliest convince and tell him to implement your suggestions right away, so everything can be just peachy in your eyes.

Sooner or later I hope you'll come to the realization of what I am saying,which is simply, Give the man time to make things right. It's not a lot to ask , but easier said than done for some here.

Mac

PS...How was that Jethro ? Easier to read this time ?


12-23-08
Where has he failed to do what he said he was going to do in his letters,he isn't done yet ?Are you setting some type of time table for him now? Like I said..he isn't making all of these changes all at once..and to expect it all at once is wrong. I suggest you go back and read my post again,and this time read to whom I was speaking to,before quoting me out of context and as if I was speaking to you.While your at it,I'll take Marks word over any one else on this forum,any day of the week,and I know for a 100% fact many other would too. He may not be the fastest CEO in the world to begin implementing changes,but he is starting to.He has started with his communicating to those who are waiting on products first,I am sure we will see the other changes in time.Again,I'll say this,Rome wasn't but in a day,the same holds true for here.Give the man time and space and let him get it done with out cutting him down because things aren't up to your standards.BTW,from what I've been told,sales are up,even with everything that has gone on here and with the company over the last year. That kinda negates most of what you've said,now doesn't it.

Mac

And Mac, you know that is just the tip of the iceberg. Before you were banned you were going off the handle on people daily for wanting refunds, wanting products, wanting answers, etc. I don't have the time or energy to read any more threads dating further back but we all know what you were like on that forum. Why else did you get banned? If you don't want to confront or attack Mark publicly, thats fine, but don't say its because its not in your nature. Please.

 

[stevo238]

12-22-08

Guys...

Don't fall for it.That is all he wants to do is to disrupt this thread. That's what they enjoy doing.There is no reason to take this persona seriously.The name may be different,but his objective is still the same.Just ignore him and don't feed him anything..he will fade into obscurity soon enough.It's Christmas time..or getting close to it..Let's all try to get along and not get our panties in a bunch over someone like this. Please

Mac


You were talking about me there Mac, and the name was different, yes.

hypocrisy n. , pl. -sies . The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness

 

[gonk]

Playing a bit of catch-up on this thread this morning. Thanks for the compliments, guys.

What's crazy is that I think mls could start to turn things around easily. Start by being honest about delivery dates. Then pick one raffle. Derek probably makes the most sense. Start paying the guy, even it is $100 a week. Do something positive. I think he could really kill some of the negative mo just by doing little positive things. Fact is, so far, he has done nothing positive. I know, someone will say he has delivered on mfw amps and some LS speakers, but not on time, or even close.

I've had a similar thought. I think it's probably the smartest strategy from the perspective of rebuilding his relationship with his existing customer base and repairing his company's reputation online. I'm not sure his personality will allow it, though. He's already made his life a lot more difficult by not adopting some sort of solution like this a long time ago, and I don't think he can turn off the hyperbole enough to make this sort of plan seem sincere. As for the deadlines, there are two possibilities. First, he simply can't develop accurate delivery dates with consistency, and his years of missed deadlines were because he simply couldn't do any better. (I have my doubts about this explanation, at least for many of the deadlines for things like refunds and product launches like the UFW-12 HR.) The second possibility is that he can develop accurate ones but has consistently refused to share them because they aren't "optimistic" enough.

Now I'm not saying he can fix everything and turn the business completely around, but I really think he can get out from under some of the negative barrage by just taking baby steps in the right direction. I've never been in the boat he is in personally, but I have been in similar ones in my business life, where customers were ready with torches and pitchforks. The reaction is amazing when you start to do the right thing.

Unfortunately mls is still deep in a river in Egypt. He still wants to come at this with his personality turned on high and thinks he can charm and dance his way through it. This is too big, and too many folks are all over the details.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head. How much of AV123's current agenda for recovery is built on a foundation of denial? How much are they counting on using Mark's charm to get them back on an even keel? If they are betting on his charm and some quick-talking song and dance to get them out of this mess, it's likely to blow up in their faces sooner rather than later (and by "blow up in their faces" I mean moreso than it already has).

 

[wesley63]

I'd like to see it re-opened and used to provide answers.

You got your wish (at least the re-open part.)

Jim

 

[gonk]

Hmmm... This is interesting - the thread at AV123 is re-opened, with the following message:

Ok, I just talked with MLS and he has asked me to reopen this thread. I will ask this from anyone that posts. Since this thread is about censorship I would ask that this stay on subject and any personal attacks on anyone will cause this thread to be shut down permanently.

The bit about personal attacks would seem to suggest that there had actually been a problem with attacks in the thread. Curious notion...

 

[zane9]

I have not read all of the 140 pages in this thread, but certain things stand out for me. There seems to be a cultivation of a Cult of Personality early on, and the CoP was constantly being fed by the most extreme supporters. Should a person be a sociopath and narcissist, the chances of any meaningful changes in behaviour are zero. Do not expect much alteration from this type of person, if nothing has come to date. Examine deeds, not words.

As well, allowing for a 15% "exaggeration discount" there are serious allegations of criminal fraud, misrepresentation, malfeasance, and the like. In the ordinary course, there would be an investigation by appropriate authorities. However, it seems that this entire matter has been confined to this forum, and a few other sites.

The mainstream media and the audio press is seemingly missing in action.

There are investigative journalists out there, in both traditional and digital media who might look into this entire affair...if they knew about it.

One should ask if the media has been contacted, and if not..why not?

 

[Bugbitten]

.... it seems that this entire matter has been confined to this forum, and a few other sites.

Good point zane9.

6 months worth of talk. Kind of like a flea on a dogs back.

No disrespect to anyone intended.

 

[randyb]

Soundman's doing all the work though. I just sit on my fat *** and make suggestions.

That is my favorite kind of work.

 

[randyb]

You know all the words, emotions, etc. and I think MLS can be summed up in just a few words. The guy is motivated mainly by money. It is as old as humans exchanging goods for funds or services. Sure, image may play a part, but as Randy Newman said "It's money I love" Great song by the way.

 

[MinusTheBear]

All the contrasting traits that are portryaed of this man are typical of the personality of a confidence trickster. He is noted as friendly, likeable, charming but yet is accused of such immoral and illegal activities. Conmen are also calculting, persuasive and exploit such human traits as greed (pre-order for such a great deal), honesty (stealing money from raffles for the less fortunate/sick people), compassion (playing the victim) and faith (stringing customers along for years).