DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[Chu Gai]

Are you a attorney..or a sitting judge in the state of Colorado? I think not..It is not up to you to interpret what is legal and what isn't then past judgment on the man..Wither it plays out in a court of law is not up to you or anyone else here..so..will it play a role..Your only answer is a guess..

For profit companies are prohibited from running raffles in the State of Colorado. As to whether it will play out in a court, don't you think that Attorney General, IRS and FBI have already been contacted?

From my understanding on this..this was a joint venture with Mark and others..Why is that not mentioned by you..? While Mark was the face of it and the funds went to him for Act3..it wasn't entirely his project now was it..

Arnie Nudell no longer is a party. I've already mentioned that Wally Liederman has cashed out. It's Mark's tar baby now.

Ok...since you have no clue what their cost are..how can this be factored in in any worthwhile way..?

I've been remarkably generous with respect to costs. If they're worse, the situation is even more grim. Make some inquiries on your own as to what markups for things like speakers can range.

How can we forget this little tibit you continue to share here..How nice of you in your zeal to prove you point you take it to this level again.BTW...what happened to your other post when you drug this into the discussion?

This tidbit is a matter of public knowledge. Over at TCA it was felt this was over the top. So do you. I disagree. IMO, it speaks to the financial health and the ability to repay other oustanding obligations.

Right to question...sure you do..but..where do you have the right to invade someones privacy and post crap like this..? It's not the first time you have done this..and had a post removed..is it..

Matters of public record are not matters of privacy. They may wish no one sees it and I understand that. But invasion of privacy? Nope.

I really don't care where you have worked...that isn't relevant to Mark..? Your quantifying your experiences to be the norm for everyone...Damn Chu..you sure do think highly of yourself..buisness 101 according to Chu...wow..BTW...how many start up companies have you developed and brought on line in a 3rd world country ? You really don't think that there are not going to be issues some small some large along the way? Bum amps in some..yes..that is going to happen especially when counterfeit parts are substituted..or design specs are changed..This is why they are trying to do these here in the states..not there..Same for some of the cabinets as well..It's all been chronicled over there..

Some issues, Mac? I'd fire your *** if you went away for months and this is what I was faced with.

Really...ok...I'll ask you again...How many start up companies have you built anywhere..let alone in a 3rd world country to base anything you have said about it on?

None. You don't think I've worked or work for companies that do source from other countries? Plenty of other outfits do have dealings with 3rd world countries, although I'm not sure China fits into that designation. Any horror stories like the one that is AV123? The Cali story is factual. You were a moderator, didn't you read about this at all?

Do you know what happens when you assume anything with out having all the facts...? I think you already know the answer to this..so I'll save you that embarrassment..I asked you before..You state this as facts Chu...do you have the paper to back this up..or is this just another way of putting out numbers some some will take it as facts? In other words..unless you are in a position to have had eyes on any contracts..you are blowing sunshine up peoples butt here with you comments about this..Fact is..you don't know what terms they were given..

Fact is, I do. You think Mark was given net 180's?

The fact is..you are deliberately trying to mislead people with your facts & figures..You say you are quoting reasonable estimates..How can you...how the hell can you do this without having all of the figures..Fact is..you can't..because you don't know..You haven't the foggiest idea of how much volume they have done unless you are looking at their books..period.You say sales are in the shitter...Again...have you seen their books? Mark himself told me otherwise...Now..as much as it will pain you and others..I tend to believe the CEO of the company over wild speculation of people who really dislike a company..Guess I'm kind of funny that way..This isn't saying I am a blind fool..and can't see past that..but...as a whole for me..it is the way I am..As to lay offs or firing staff...employees come and go in any business..are you privy to every aspect with every employee there..?What transpired with one..doesn't mean it is the same with the others..Wow...he has cut back on advertising.. So what..that he has cut his advertisement expenditures....big deal..Mark has been the first to say they are cutting back..Hell..I can name you over 100 companies that is cutting advertising expenditures..Again...how many companies do you run that isn't doing this in today's economy ?

Mark essentially has no advertising. You want to trust this President after all you know? Mac, really! As far as disliking the company, can you think of compelling reasons to really champion it?

Now..with respect to Curtis..Who in the company told him to do this..with regards to the numbers? Mark..Kyle..Lynn..Jess Luis.. Sean..? Was it an employee or is this just more speculation..? You state the figure at 1/3...this wasn't a guess on your part..but what "you see"...tell me and everyone else...What documents are you looking at to arrive at this figure..? The fact is..it is just another guess you are trying to make as the real figure to fit you assumptions to all the rest..

You got a better guess? Think the phone is ringing off the hook? They'll be lucky to do a half million. If I'm wrong and it's 5x that, then that shoud make paying back real easy and quick, right? Mac, you've got no idea how deep that rabbit hole goes.

Your saying your giving very generous assumptions..I say..you really don't know what your talking about..You've made your post using second/third/fourth hand information and did all of your calculations with out having any real data..You've invaded the mans privacy and posted personal information of his with out regard to what your doing or his permission..You've alluded even marriage misconduct by him..in a post that was deleted here..I'm sorry...this doesn't sound like just wanting to inform folks about the pitfalls of buying speakers from the company..but a personal vendetta on your part..

Randy..

If he didn't want his privacy invaded as you say, he shouldn't have put himself in a position where the courts were required by law to make a public announcement. Really now! I don't need his permission. Get it? Takes out 100K in 2000 and here it is 2009 and he still owes a few dollars short of 100K. Do you think his cash flow is better than what I propose? Think it's better enough to knock those raffle debts off and move on to the other ones?

FWIW..no..I'm not mad at everyone here..There are some real legitimate issues being discussed..People do have a right to be pissed off about Mark..hell..I'm still pissed off at him..but..BS is BS..and Chu has been spreading his like a cow rich farmer..and acting and saying the crap he has need to be questioned as well...Facts are facts..and Mark does have a lot of owning up to do with out a doubt....but shouldn't the playing field be level for this to happen..

Sorry for the rant..

Mac

I hold no ill will towards you Mac. BTW, find Uncle Paul and ask him how that repay is coming along. Get off your duff and ask some questions.

 

[Chu Gai]

"...Our factory there has just released the 1st of several (read many!!!) planned containers over the next 3 months with both A and B Stock product in virtually all models, finishes and flavors. Uniaudio (our factory name in Cali, Colombia for those of you that don’t know) produces the product that makes our competitors squirm – much to the delight of our team here and to all of our more than 15,000 customers in North America…"
~From "av123 does the impossible" sales flyer on 4/5/09

"...
No one can deny that the Rocket RS850 as Mains coupled to the RSC200 Bigfoot Center Channel and the lovely RS450’s as Surrounds creates the kind of system synergy that’s hard to beat at anywhere near the price. This system at $1699 rivals the best that our estimable competitors can throw at us (or you for that matter) at even 3 or 4X the price… We’ve been proving that over and over for the last 10 years… Rockets Rock
..."
~From "Can't touch this" sales flyer on 4/28/09

"We have well over 17,000 very satisfied customers that enjoy their relationship with av123 - it's people, products and programs... I have asked before to simply be allowed to deliver on our promises (collectively - and singularly) and let that speak for us (or me)..."
~From MLS' reply to Gonks thread.

Something that sticks out to me is that in the 10 years MLS discussed they had amassed ~15,000 customers, in the last five months MLS states they have gained 2,000 more for a customer base of ~17,000. That is roughly a 13.3% increase in customer base over five months on an established base, in a very tough economy while av123's forum was down and many threads and posts of criticism were created on multiple high profile forums.

They're made up numbers. Hyperbole. Creative. Read for example, The Suckers Moon about the Subaru story from the POV of advertising. Lot's of numbers get made up all the time. Who's gonna fact check them?

This make me wonder:

a) Perhaps av123 has been immune to the criticism and has been flying high, in which case I don't understand why refunds/restitution of raffles, etc would be an issue. This would also mean that those that have stated negative posts and/or threads are harming the company have been incorrect,

They're not flying high. Hardly anyone will give them the terms they once had. Acoustic Elegance gets paid, then they ship. The reputation was never stellar. It's in the shitter now.

b) the margins are very low so the company is having issues creating a healthy bottom line where they are selling in very large volume in order to maintain their operating cost,

They're worse than they used to be, but very low...nahhh.

or

c) the numbers presented are incorrect.

Of course, other options that I have not foreseen could exist, but with a large growth in "very satisfied customers" such as MLS has stated I don't see how these remaining issues have been so undo-able for so long for av123

. They're inflated.

Also, per one of my Business law professor's at CU the statute that Chu presented regarding raffles is correct. The individual I verified this with is in fact an attorney in Colorado as well as a professor of law, so I take his opinion rather highly. One additional note, while posting public information about an unfortunate issue in someones life may be distasteful to some, it is not an invasion of privacy as the information was already part of the public record. Perhaps before legal claims such as defamation, violation of privacy laws, etc are bandied about verification should be pursued by all parties.

One didn't have to ask a lawyer. The law and the link I posted are pretty damned clear. I don't make this shite up. As to the other matter...I posted it. It's a lot more accurate than the fluff some online review sites have posted.

 

[Chu Gai]

I'll even add my 2 cents.

I'm verklempt.

 

[SnowmaNick]

Chu, I agree with your assessment of the customers figures, I was merely playing devils advocate on their sales.

I'm verklempt.

LOL.

STREISAND: "Now, I'm getting verklempt! [To audience:] Talk amongst yourselves. I'll give you a topic. The Prince of Tides was about neither a prince nor tides. Discuss."

 

[gonk]

I love what Gonk is doing there, but I am sure you realize that it is also not a level field as well. That is MLS's home turf, and Gonk has had to be very careful on the wording, and as the title states "Open for Interpretation"....and who's interpretation matters most there?

On top of that, MLS has not posted in the thread for two days.

I'm glad you like it, but so far I see a lot of "more of the same" - one post from Mark that tries to elicit our pity and talk about vague changes that we've been hearing about for at least a year now. I'm going to keep the thread going as best I can (and I've subscribed with instant email notifications so I will get copies of all new posts in my inbox, in case things start disappearing). I doubt that it will achieve a lot, though. Until and unless Mark gets serious about righting some wrongs - something that I still think he has little or no intention of doing - much of this is just an intellectual exercise.

a) Perhaps av123 has been immune to the criticism and has been flying high, in which case I don't understand why refunds/restitution of raffles, etc would be an issue. This would also mean that those that have stated negative posts and/or threads are harming the company have been incorrect,

Even with the huge price cuts they've offered, I doubt they've sold that kind of volume. They've had no advertising, very few reviews (one for a speaker they don't even sell now - the Ref 1), and their referral/word of mouth sales have to have taken a significant hit in the last year or so.

b) the margins are very low so the company is having issues creating a healthy bottom line where they are selling in very large volume in order to maintain their operating cost,

I might believe that if there were signs the profits they did have (and selling at least 2,000 sets of speakers in five months would have to bring in some decent profits) were being sunk into fixing things. And yet, still no raffle money distributed and no refunds handed out.

c) the numbers presented are incorrect.

At this point, I think that's the most plausible answer. And once again, a company that desperately needs to establish some credibility finds itself providing opportunities for people to doubt them.

 

[jvgillow]

So don't knock on my door, don't try to call
I'm holed up in this room talking to the wall
'Cause when you're high as this you think you know it all
When you're this deep in there's no place else to fall

Elton John - And The House Fell Down

 

[stevo238]

Mac. An example of your relationship with MLS.

"Don't believe your friends when they ask you to be honest with them. All they really want is to be maintained in the good opinion they have of themselves."

-Albert Camus

 

[fredk]

Jeez, Louise, Fred. Did you read what I wrote on who or what is able to run a raffle legally in the state of Colorado?

As a matter of fact, I didn't. I have managed to read almost all of the 100+ pages of this thread but I did not see that one.

I was amazed that things did not completely collapse months ago and at one point wondered if he had secured more financing in some way. Judging by the foreclosure stuff on his house, I gather not.

You know, MLS reminds me a lot of a fellow by the name of Delorian who got himself in trouble doing large drug deals to finance his ailing business.

 

[cschang]

I wasn't going to bring this up but I was soundly attacked a couple of years ago on the av123 forum for having the impertinence to publicly point out that I had been given three dates, which had passed, for delivery of my x-sub. MLS sycophants accused me of being immature, irresponsible and possibly a pinko nazi child molester ( slight exaggeration here).

But of course two wrongs don't make a right and I will gladly listen to anyone who wants to defend MLS. I won't even attack their character...

I have been attacked everywhere by AV123 supporters, Craig, conspiracy theorists, etc....it never really matters if you have facts or not.

 

[Tex-amp]

b) the margins are very low so the company is having issues creating a healthy bottom line where they are selling in very large volume in order to maintain their operating cost,

or

c) the numbers presented are incorrect.

All the huge % off sales tells you margins were no where near as low as MLS would like people to believe.

Look at how fast the Ref 1 went from $1500 to including a Onix SP3 MKII integrated amp at $1K once the Ascend Sierra 1 came out. Then to "on sale" for $700 on its' own for months?

 

[fredk]

All the huge % off sales tells you margins were no where near as low as MLS would like people to believe.

Or it tells you he was trying to push volumes to maintain cashflow and reduce per unit overheads on fixed capital costs.

 

[Tex-amp]

I have been attacked everywhere by AV123 supporters, Craig, conspiracy theorists, etc....it never really matters if you have facts or not.

I quit posting on some forums and changed my screen name at others from the harassment I used to get from questioning MLS.

 

[Chu Gai]

As a matter of fact, I didn't. I have managed to read almost all of the 100+ pages of this thread but I did not see that one.

I was amazed that things did not completely collapse months ago and at one point wondered if he had secured more financing in some way. Judging by the foreclosure stuff on his house, I gather not.

You know, MLS reminds me a lot of a fellow by the name of Delorian who got himself in trouble doing large drug deals to finance his ailing business.

And that was a turd of a car to boot. Way over budget, underperforming, beset with problems, but it did take you back to the future.

 

[cschang]

Or it tells you he was trying to push volumes to maintain cashflow and reduce per unit overheads on fixed capital costs.

At less than 50% of the original price?

 

[fredk]

At less than 50% of the original price?

OK, that one was a stretch. Thing is, it could be a whole bunch of things including a combination of the above.

The wonky sales was one of the big reasons I never seriously considered buying from AV123.

 

[Soundman]

OK, that one was a stretch. Thing is, it could be a whole bunch of things including a combination of the above.

The wonky sales was one of the big reasons I never seriously considered buying from AV123.

But they were appealing. I was one of those people who got in on the Rocket package for around $1,700.00. Fortunately, I received them in a timely manner. This was over 2 years ago, though. So, maybe that made a difference. I just don't know anymore what to think.

 

[Mac11700]

But they were appealing. I was one of those people who got in on the Rocket package for around $1,700.00. Fortunately, I received them in a timely manner. This was over 2 years ago, though. So, maybe that made a difference. I just don't know anymore what to think.

I payed a-lot more for mine when I bought them and recently spent even more on them recently doing the Ninja upgrades..If they didn't sound and look as good as they do..I would be really pissed..but..for the money I have in them..I still can't find anything that sounds better..I've auditioned so many different speakers here my poor wife has just about had it with me..opps..sorry for going off topic..

Mac

 

[Soundman]

I payed a-lot more for mine when I bought them and recently spent even more on them recently doing the Ninja upgrades..If they didn't sound and look as good as they do..I would be really pissed..but..for the money I have in them..I still can't find anything that sounds better..I've auditioned so many different speakers here my poor wife has just about had it with me..opps..sorry for going off topic..

Mac

Yes, I know. I've heard alot about your story on a couple different forums. Your story is interesting anyway. I don't know if you remember, but I've actually asked you a number of questions about the Ninja upgrade options on the AV123 forums.

 

[stevo238]

I have been attacked everywhere by AV123 supporters, Craig, conspiracy theorists, etc....it never really matters if you have facts or not.

Along with you and Django, I would call myself the poster boy for bad behaviour (that's the Craigsub, MLS spelling) and attacks over at AV123 for a long time. I'll never quite understand how many of you fell for the P.T. Barnum shtick over there.

 

[Mac11700]

Yes, I know. I've heard alot about your story on a couple different forums. Your story is interesting anyway. I don't know if you remember, but I've actually asked you a number of questions about the Ninja upgrade options on the AV123 forums.

Yup..I remember..

Mac