DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[GirgleMirt]

Johnsteph10:

More of the same.

m-fine416:

Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
Sorry MLS, but until the actions match the words IE: the raffles are paid, not just more promises to pay what should have already been sent, speakers are delivered (thinking of at least two people with LS9's that have had very long waits and lots of broken promises from you), and refunds are made, I just don't buy it.

Also, on a personal note, I find it reprehensible that you still call stealing form a charity "underfunding." Thats poor taste and shows a lack of remorse regardless of whatever else you scaffold the comment with.

You've had plenty of time, and plenty of chances, your words are meaningless now. Apparently they have been for quite awhile now.

I would have sent this to you via PM on your forum, but your box would probably still be full and your computer and phone would probably die as they have so many times in the past.

+2

One thing that really bothers me is that there is supposedly $400k to buy new amps, plus money to deliver speakers, remodel show rooms and do other things for the business, yet the charities that are owed money donated BY OTHER PEOPLE still have to wait. They should have been first, and the fact that they have been relegated to last is most disturbing. The fact that they continue to wait, to me at least, says you have not learned from your mistakes and are not truly sorry yet.

HiFiFun:

Several years ago this guy used to post to AVS forum. He acted very friendly and posted many self-indulgent, pompous posts about how the food was so great at Mexican restaurants and I'd like tio have a beer with you! I posted to cut out this crap act, as it was easy to see that he was only here to build up a following.

So he starts his own forum, rips customers off, claims serious heart problems, shuts down his forum, apologies for his sins (hoping that no one will contact the county prosecutor) and is now using AVS forum once again to build up his business.

I can't figure out why my fellow human beings are so malleable - Count me as clueless.

Tarpon:

I hope my sarcasm meter is broken as that "open and honest" post from MLS is textbook from him until he disappeared for months once he was caught with his hand in the charity raffle. Since when does stealing=underfunding? I guess Madoff and Stanford just had underfunding issues and not Ponzi schemes.

MLS needs to send a letter of apology to each and every raffle ticket buyer as he was stealing their money just as much as he was the alleged charity recipients funds.

Hififun:

I’ve only recently been made of the horror stories in what should be just a simple speaker purchase. I too was burned by Ebay/PayPal and will never use them again. Since we do not have all the facts, AVS cannot the place to judge. (Leave any issues like that to the authorities.)

What we can do is debate and advise:
1) Is it wise to purchase a speaker from **********? (the topic of this thread)
2) What prudent steps should one take to ensure they receive the product and not get burned?
3) What are the chances of a long –term warranty being honored?

Cash Flow Issues
----------------
A huge red flag is asking new customers for payment up-front then having to wait 6-8 weeks (or forever) to receive the merchandise. Essentially your money is actually going to the customer who placed his order 6 weeks ago. If new orders do not come in (like during a severe recession) then the money has to come from somewhere. One hiccup and scheme comes crashing down.

Warranty
---------
Extended warranties mean nothing if the company does into bankruptcy or goes out of business.

Purchasing Cautions
-------------------
Prudent common sense dictates to purchase from another company. This avoids any potential messy situation. If you do decide to purchase then charge it with a credit card from a bank with excellent customer service. This will make the long drawn out arbitration process go easier.
Assume the worse situation: there is no long-term warranty. Under these circumstances, no amplifier replacement is possible. From my experience, PWM/BASH plate amplifiers are notoriously unreliable and impossible to repair. The shock and vibration these boards and components undergo is tremendous.

Cheap Subwoofer Amplifier Reliability
-----------------------------------
I’ve had several plate amplifiers become defective, including those from Acoustic Research and Infinity. In each case, authorized repair centers were unable to repair the amplifiers. Infinity used to have a central repair facility, but that was dropped. Their service manager refused to call me back as promised to repair the PWM amplifier.
This explains why av123 is replacing the amplifiers rather than fixing them. From my experience, I would not expect any cheap plate amplifier to have a long lifetime or to be serviceable. Maybe you could send it to Bob Carver! Otherwise its time to buy another sub/speaker.
Of course, there are exceptions to every rule: my Dynaudio BM5a has built-in MOSFET amplifiers. Same goes for my JL Audio 113 subwoofer. The difference is these companies have a rock solid reputation for quality and service and are not tied to any one individual’s well-being.

Kudos to AVS Forum for reopening this thread

BWG707:

I can't believe using terminolgy like "underfunded". That would be on the verge of being comical if such damaging acts had not transpired.
After reading quite abit on this MLS subject in different forums I heard several posts about the "cultish" atmosphere at AV123, it didn't sink in until I was reading a post from MLS on the AV123 forum, it was in the Rocket raffle #9 thread. He was addressing the sorrow he had for David F. pertaining to his father's illness and then he goes on the say "Please respect his (David's) privacy... Do this for me." It was as if he was giving orders to his minions. It truely smacked of a cult leader. The more MLS posts I read the more that this is evident. It really is a very sad situation. Although I have not be directly effected this whole fiasco did help me eliminate The MFW-15 from my list of prospective subs. P.S. I ended up getting a SVS PB-10NSD and absolutely love it. So in my (I dare not use the word "humble") opinion it is not so much of a matter of "is it safe to buy a MFW-15" but rather would you feel comfortable putting money into the pockets of this man who runs AV123?

Jed M

Quote:
Originally Posted by jephdood View Post
Jeez, give it a freaking REST. How many times can you guys repeat the same crap over and over again? Get out of the house. Mow the lawn. Go to the park with your kids. Pop in a movie and enjoy your non-AV123 products.

All of this garbage has been WELL-documented. You're all doing a pretty good job of fueling each other here, but I think everyone else has gotten your point by now.

Mark came in here with what seemed to me to be a genuine response and admission of wrong-doing, and a desire to (when fiscally possible) make things right. At least, that's what I got out of it.

Could he have said ANYTHING to satisfy this angry mob? Seemed from your responses, he was damned if he did, and damned if he didn't. You pick apart his wording like vultures on a carcass. If I was in his shoes, I wouldn't respond again in here either. What's the point? What could he possibly say?

I am NOT defending what has been done by Mark or AV123. But the constant regurgitation of opinion here.. just different words.. is SO stale.

Chill for a bit and allow some things to happen. Actions speak louder than words anyway, right? If things start to turn around again for AV123, and they still haven't mended these fences.. THEN light up those torches again and go to town. But allow the dude to fix what he broke.

Incidentally, you can reply to my thoughts here or not. But I'm not in the mood to defend myself, Mark, or AV123. So this is the last I'll say on this.

It would be NICE to be able to have an AV123 product thread and not have it derailed in 5 minutes.

There are a lot of things he can say that would satisfy me like he has paid off one of the charities and send an email to everybody involved apologizing and explaining, but not the standard bs he peddles out pubiclly every 4-5 months. You of all people should know what I am talking about since you have been around a long time. What is different about his "genuine response" this time from all the other lame *** "genuine responses" we have been hearing for the last couple years? Like I said, quit judging this man by what he says. I don't give a hoot if his response SOUNDS genuine. I have heard enough "genuine responses" from this guy. I want action. Nothing more, nothing less. This guy has had way too long of a time to make things right and all we get still are "genuine responses". Please people, quit judging this man by what he says. If you look at his actions they never match his words.

And if you want to not have every AV123 product thread get derailed tell Mark all he needs to do is start working on getting more "genuine results" and less "genuine responses", because we have had a whole, whole, whole, whole lot of that so far.

 

[Soundman]

Interesting...

And what does the Audioholics Store manufacture? NOTHING. It seems to me that they are an on-line retail store representing many different manufacturers with a far more diverse line of products. I don't see any competition there. Even if AV123 sells a set of speakers to a customer, there is still a vast amount of other equipment that they do not sell that is sold by the Audioholics Store.

Note I said retailer, not an internet direct manufacturer like AV123. As an on-line retailer, if a manufacturer's product doesn't sell they can easily remove the line from inverntory or liquidate. And there is no advanced sale of a future item that doesn't exist. No funny business with a retailer. It's either in stock or it is not. And it's brand name mechandise, not ID companies.

The arguement of being competitors is just lame. There is no reason they can't coexist since they are two totally different niches of a very large consumer electronics industry.

The only real similarity between the two is the operation of an on-line forum. But in the case of Audioholics it's in support of an on-line magazine, not a manufacturer's product line. I'm quite sure Audioholics makes the lion's share of the profits from the on-line advertisers. The Store has only been around for less than two years. The website since 2002 (?).

But it doesn't really matter. As usual CC is just acting like a spoiled child.

I couldn't have said this better myself. In fact, I think the Audoholics Store has more in common with Amazon.com then any of the ID's!

 

[GirgleMirt]

Jephdood here represents the fanatical fanboys, as illustrated here (as if Jed M prevented Schifter from doing anything ):

Jed M:

Originally Posted by jephdood View Post
Then allow it to happen.

He hasn't even apologized to the people he stole the money from. Unless you call ignoring them and referring to it as underfunding an apology. Geez, where did that money come from that allowed him to underfund. Oh, thats right, he stole it from his friends. I have allowed plenty of time for "it to happen". Does it take over a year for a simple apology? My question is when does he plan on starting to make it happen?

Edit: and the only reason why anything is happening, like just getting him to acknowledge his underfunding, is because of all the pressure we have put on him. Trust me, its not because of all of his subjects turning a blind eye and giving him more time.

Originally Posted by jephdood View Post
Like I said, I'm not going to get into a defensive position here. I have better things to do, and frankly have NEVER been one of those 'kool-aid' guys. (and I know you know what I mean..)

If you're upset, cool. You have every right to be. Hell, I contributed money to raffles as well.

If all you're personally looking for is an apology, then go to it. I hope you get satisfaction.

But, if you're looking for people to get the money that's due them AND see AV123 run aground.. Well, those two things are mutually exclusive.

As I sated a few posts up:

Anyway, that's it. I hope people get what they're after. It's just that (to me) the constant repetitive barrage is getting counterproductive and old.

I guess I just expected Mark to be a decent human being through this. I really feel he has and continues to mistreat people. I am severely disappointed in how he handled all of this.

So I don't know how to solve it either. I don't see any real change in the guy. I guess we give him more time, but I will never believe him about the raffles until we get some serious proof. I am sorry, but it smells pretty rotten. I hate to doubt the guy. Seriously I hate having to doubt him, but I just can't ignore the facts. I was just looking back the other day and I don't know what to think if I find out my $900 Katrina contribution ($500 after product) ended up not going there. I think of the money I gave anonymously in a couple "underfunded" raffles that he stole because it will never be accounted for. All he has to answer for is the amount of tickets sold. So honestly, I don't think he can make it right. He stole from me and I am an idiot for giving anonymously, but that doesn't excuse him. I see zero sincerity in his form letters he releases every 6 months. I wish I could.

HiFi:

Jed, sometimes people state things about others that is true about themselves. You hold some strong feelings and I'm glad you could get them out. As a victim you have my sympathy.
Some of us realize that YouKnowWho came back here to do a repeat performance and build a new following. We had to stop it!
The most productive thing you can do now is to warn others by continuing to tell your story. You may even choose to file a police report. Take care.

Schifter, notice what he chooses to answer :

Originally Posted by Jed M View Post
I guess I just expected Mark to be a decent human being through this. I really feel he has and continues to mistreat people. I am severely disappointed in how he handled all of this.

So I don't know how to solve it either. I don't see any real change in the guy. I guess we give him more time, but I will never believe him about the raffles until we get some serious proof. I am sorry, but it smells pretty rotten. I hate to doubt the guy. Seriously I hate having to doubt him, but I just can't ignore the facts. I was just looking back the other day and I don't know what to think if I find out my $900 Katrina contribution ($500 after product) ended up not going there. I think of the money I gave anonymously in a couple "underfunded" raffles that he stole because it will never be accounted for. All he has to answer for is the amount of tickets sold. So honestly, I don't think he can make it right. He stole from me and I am an idiot for giving anonymously, but that doesn't excuse him. I see zero sincerity in his form letters he releases every 6 months. I wish I could.

I'm not all that sure how to reply - but I'll will do my best in any event...

I saw a letter you sent recently to someone that won a Raffle and in that letter you were quite sure that the winner did not receive his gift... This was a fairly expensive OMEGA wristwatch... I was really surprised to read that letter - and I was equally surprised to see "M's" reply to you. He showed you the watch he won - and along with it a few rather choice words... I had asked him NOT to post this - it was enough that we both knew he had the promised watch...

Jed - I wake up every day dealing with the things I did wrong... I didn't run - I didn't hide - I am PRESENT for this and everything else that went on during this bad period of time (other than being hospitalized and staying home for a period of recovery that were Doctor's orders)... I am truly and completely sorry... I'm also NOT going to post the letters I have sent to DW and to SK... I sent them - I meant every word of them - and I will follow the plan I am working to make sure that these wonderful places and people are paid back... I have received Grace and Dignity from them at every turn... I am grateful... Sincerely and utterly grateful...

I am in receipt of letters - PM's - and other communication about some of the "contributor's" in this thread... I'm really not at all surprised by what I have read - but I am sad for sure... These include some really interesting comments and in many cases spoofed personalities and the like... I'm not going to say more - I'm simply going to stay away - and DELIVER on my promises...

Many are working overtime to hurt me - my business - and really those associated with me... There are many people *I* have hurt by my actions both here, in China and in Colombia... I have had to face this every day... I'm sincere in my apology - and more than sincere in my making amends that are meaningful... I remember several weeks ago sending you a note to which you did not reply...

In any event - I woke up early today and wrote a note that I had not yet posted... This seems like as good a time as ever... I'm not sure if it will have any meaning to you - or to others... but nevertheless, I'm going to post it...

No matter what - I wish you the best... I wouldn't wish my situation on any of you - each day has it's own painful reminders in all sorts of decisions and places I deal with today... I'm simply working right foot in front of left so that all of the good can be remembered... I had done a good deal of that as well...

Thanks for listening...

Mark

 

[GirgleMirt]

continues:

Good Morning…

Well, the first paragraph is always the hardest on to write when you have to say some of things I’m about to. I’m sure the “wisdom” of this reply will be debated - I felt that a few words are certainly in order, given the replies and the context…

The simple and most overriding factor for me in participating in our forum or this one is to have a “presence”. That presence can surely be a two edged sword when folks report a failure - but what I hope for is to be able to help people through with their issues - and get to a positive outcome. To that end I’m trying to be here a few times daily in support of those tasks…

av123 is a much smaller company than it was a year or so back. We see that as a positive as with the changes we’ve made - we believe we are a better company now in the go forward. All of this was necessary to be a business that survives the economic downturn that the world is in (not JUST America) and to overcome the mistakes and choices that I have made along the way that have hurt the business - and myself personally.

The above preamble was necessary to emphasize the importance of what I will say next. I have made many mistakes - both business wise - and surely “personal wise” over the last few years… Those mistakes have been well chronicled - and to be sure - I deserved a lot of the fallout as a result. Once I was able to come back to work I started charting a course (together with everyone involved in our business) to fix the business mistakes - and to then be able to make the amends I needed to on the personal side of the ledger… These mistakes were unforgivable - but at the same time I knew that I needed to do ALL of this and more.

While there is endless debate about my posting style - how I go about dealing with the daily needs of our customers or those wronged - my singular focus is to DELIVER. I have written some heartfelt words - but ultimately redemption comes packed in DELIVERY and not some well chosen meaningless words. There were many issues to be dealt with - and the continued support of my family, my coworkers still here (and those note) and our customer base has been nothing short of incredible. I surely had to pick and choose what to do first - and I chose what I believed were the most important issues of The Today so that I could ensure a positive tomorrow - and ultimately (again) allowing me to deliver (and av123 in it’s area) on our promises. Of course there was even debate about the way we’ve gone about doing that…

To all of us the most important and key “first item” was to take care of our promises in the area of broken product (like the MFW-15’s) and the delivery of goods. Without these points well handled, there would surely of been ample reason to not support current or future efforts from my company - or from me. With each day we are showing our hearts and our collective soul by delivering product - and our service in an uninterrupted manor - befitting of our customer’s trust in us, and the reputation we have earned. We delivered MFW (continuing to do the same with each day) and we are shipping items like LS’s, etc. on a weekly basis… all the while living and working in a glass house.

Every item on a Things To Do List has a number. Not all of them can be labeled Number One (as much as I might wish otherwise)… We have to work that list on a daily basis - and do everything in our power to DELIVER item by item - promise by promise. We are doing just that… I know there is further endless debate with even how I manage this - but to be perfectly candid… just as I have been called out for my style and delivery here in threads and posts - we all felt that this presence was important enough for me to spend part of my day here - and also in our forums. Why - because we want you to know that we ARE HERE and PRESENT for your needs, concerns and questions… and that I’m here as well at my extension in the office. I have invited many phone calls, etc. - and it’s been my pleasure to meet many of you and discuss audio or whatever suits your fancy.

None of us has the ability to be in multiple places at one time. What must take total precedence is the delivery on my promises and those of the business. We have shown our ability to deliver on these promises (MFW-15) and there are still more deliveries (like our LS’s) that are due, some as early as tomorrow - while pressing forward with our plan that‘s in place for complete deliveries of these currently communicated promises (again, LS’s) before the end of September. While each issue is important - we have to get closure on these one at a time - and keep moving forward. Staying locked into the debate does not serve this - our customers - or in the end… the complete delivery of all promises and the redemption that I personally seek. My further plan with respect to that issue will be moved forward in a very big way in September. I just had a meeting a few nights ago with some key advisers and plans are being put into effect right now that will deal effectively with these issues.

I’m going to be hopeful that this reply will put into focus what “early steps” have been made - and will continue to be made. Moving forward, there are more plans and promises to be made - and kept, as noted. We have a long history of delivering on our promises, and while there has been hurt o’ plenty - we have worked hard to execute the early plan with the help of many friends and coworkers. Those with their hurtful messages (or worse) will surely have their continued say - but as we have moved forward we have done so by communicating and delivering at the quickest pace we can muster - while not compromising our plans to build more and more here in America now - and deliver a product that we can all be very proud of. New products are also being readied for the market --- as that’s what a business like ours should be doing. We have made some sizable commitments to these new products - and when it’s time for them to make their appearance - they will.

Surely the name calling and innuendo is hard to wake to every day - but I have been reminded this morning by many that delivery on our promises is what it’s all about - and to stay focused on that mission… I’m going to continue to do just that - all the while knowing that there are those that seek otherwise… Their plans have been made very clear in this thread - and in others. I’ll let my actions and those of my business speak for us over the long haul…

I do sincerely care - and I hope this message serves to say that…

Many thanks…

mls

Jed M:

Mark, I don't even know how to respond to you. My heart is pounding so fast right now because I am so mad. You are a liar. That is not what my "letter" aka Private Message said and you are a complete and utter liar. My letter said THIS:

"I just thought you may want to know that Mark never sent any of your money to the raffle recipient. It is a FACT. Ask him. He used it for his own needs."

THAT IS THE TRUTH! I never said one word about him not receiving his watch. Quit making yourself out to be the victim Mark. The fact that you would post that proves to me EVERYTHING I need to know about you and hopefully everybody reading this. Even if it was true, to start out your apology with divulging private information between me and another person? What the hell is wrong with you? The fact that you are lying through your teeth is even sadder. Good luck with your "business".

------------------------------------

For those questioning my credentials. Yeah, I've owned a few of their products.

Swans Diva 2.1
Rocket Tykes –set
Rocket 250's
Rocket ELT's (original) -set
Rocket ELT DPA's.
Ref 1 x3 pairs BEM
Ref 100 x4 BEM
Ref 2 BEM
Ref 3 BEM
Mini Strata PR upgrade
X-LS x5 pairs (3 classic, 2 encore) 2 finish upgrades
X-MTM
X-CS
X-Voce
LS-6
ELT 525 (new ones)
UFW-12 x2
ULW-10
X-Sub - PR upgrade
MFW-15 x2
Onix CD-88 (2 units)
Onix CD 5
Onix H34
Over 100 ft SP-200
50 ft SP100
3 Onix Blue Interconnects
GC for LS-9 (spent)
GC for BMF
GC for Ref 200 (spent)
GC for UFW HR
EDIT: I forgot, 2 pairs of their outdoor speakers.

Hope that qualifies me as somebody who can comment. Mark can back me up on that.

 

[GirgleMirt]

Snowmanick:

A) How much time and how many chances are given before a lack of action gets identified as such? 6 months? 12 Months? 24 months? 2 chances and broken promises, 3, 4, 5, two dozen?

B) MLS, stop stating how bad it makes you feel that you stole and how hard it is for you that you did it. It's insulting to those you stole from and to those you say this drivel to.

C) MLS, your posts are another example of words and how meaningless they can be.

D) While you are not required to post evidence of progress, if you want anything to come across as something more than more marketing and spin BS back something up. You state that 75% of LS preorders are filled yet very few have posted anything. other than stating they have had promises made and not kept. You have a mystery super EE that you can say is wonderful but you can't say who he (she?) is. The list goes on, it's all the same, and in fact it keeps getting longer. Heck, a certain other marketing contract just came to light that was apparently broken by you. I see very little actual progress, but I see lots and lots of "promises" and "plans" and unsubstantiated claims by you and yours that things are better. A certain quote comes to mind, "In God we trust. All others must have data." ~George Lindberg.

E) The farce of doing things in a glass house in rather annoying. You forum of old allowed criticism and questioning to exist. Some forum members would take one point of view and argue with those on the opposite but the argument and discussion was allowed. Now you have your site deleting and banning those who dare to ask if things have been resolved or what is going to be done (not just that a plan is in the works, what the heck the actual plan is).

F) You state you didn't run or hide but how many posts can we find that state people that have/are owed something can't get in touch with you?

G) This is a repeat but it is worth it, YOU ARE NOT THE VICTIM HERE! Stop talking about your hurt feelings, a great many of us could care less that your ego is bruised after what you have done.

Now put on your big girl panties and follow through on your "promises."

Good Day Sir.

Tarpon:

Originally Posted by jephdood View Post

Mark came in here with what seemed to me to be a genuine response and admission of wrong-doing, and a desire to (when fiscally possible) make things right. At least, that's what I got out of it.

How many times have there been posts just like that from him for every issue that has happened promising to get to the bottom of it, fix it, and it will happen no more? Again and again. Why do people keep believing it again and again?

The guy has already trotted on his standard- look at who the posters are on this thread, they have it in for me, line in his 2nd post on this thread. He runs that line out anytime anyone is critical of him or his company's products. With it being an attempt to win sympathy and at the same time implying a vague I know who you are threat and am watching.

I for one am not ready to believe he has changed when he is already going to his standard playbook for these situations.

Then soonly after the admin locked the thread, re-opened like 24h later with a post: "Greetings, respectfully request that all further posts be limited to technical comments", then there was a few irrelevant posts about product technicalities... Then the thread mysteriously vanished...

Anyhow, sorry for the long post... I hope it helps to illustrate why nobody should have an ounce of pity for Schifter. His actions, even today, are just plain disgusting. And as mentioned, he claimed he apologized, but I strongly doubt he sent an email to everyone who has donated money. Hell, he's been caught, he's apologized, but obviously he wants to bury the issue. And just wait a god damn second, he hasn't even given back the money he has stolen. So what does that say? Is he really sorry? Does he really care? I'd bet that it's just more lies from this charlatan. Come on, as mentioned, instead of building his show room and I don't know what else, he couldn't have given back the charity money he stole?

An honest person would have never stolen charity money in the first place. The only reason he apologized, was because he got caught. You can bet your pants this would have never seen the light of day if it was just up to him. And again, how many more raffles has he stolen from? Chu Gai asked, not surprisingly, the crook didn't answer that.

So even today, his actions are despicable. And there's a lot of questions yet to answer.

And what to say about his forum lock down? Obviously to censor his/their disgruntled customers... Really, if they manage a come back, and get that sect going again, it will be a travesty. That's really what makes me wonder if those who are still supporting him/them, are really just clueless or are actually shills. What's also troubling, some don't seem to care about all these issues if they believe they can save a buck by buying from him. What people will disregard to save a few bucks...

 

[randyb]

I somewhat disagree that ID companies are mostly one guy. Axiom has nobody, Emotiva neither, SVS again, no one, Outlaw I knew but never heard of Peter, for Ascend, DaveF is very behind the scenes and has a very limited role in promotion, AH and Gene, sorry to say, but I had never heard of Gene, Salk, well for a long time he was selling his services, but the brand and products now seem to take a more forward role in promotion. But mostly it's simply the brand... When I purchased Ascends a couple years ago, I was clearly purchasing from the company Ascend, DaveF was pretty unknown to me and didn't really factor into the equation...

Surely, no other ID persona I know of comes close to the level of Schifter's. Peddling his wares everywhere he could, always hyping his products, always so ready to 'help' (sell) with his products, the cheesy 'Santa' sales and his whole comical act, he's like the McDonald clown everybody has come to know. He really took it to a whole new level. And it seemed to have worked very well, look at the cult following he lead for a couple of years... It was actually frightening. Yeah sure, seems it turned down many, but look at the fanatical following he was able gather. The Raffles were most probably part of the charade, hey, it looked good, probably helped many decide to buy from them because it made them feel safer and maybe even like they were buying from a charity. And that's what he pushed too, the whole 'family' crap...

I hate to say it, but most people seemed to buy it.


Wow... A brazillion posts before I posted this... I need to learn to type faster... (Reference: Donald Rumsfeld is giving the president(Dubya Bush) his daily briefing. He concludes by saying: "Yesterday, 3 Brazilian soldiers were killed.". "OH NO!" the President exclaims. "That's terrible!". His staff sits stunned at this display of emotion, nervously watching as the President sits, head in hands. Finally, the President looks up and asks, "How many is a brazillion?")

Actually, SVS was two guys but one has left. (If you don't know the history and controveersy of their involement at AVS, you haven't been involved very long). Emotiva is pretty much a husband and wife as I understand it. Outlaw had a controversial start with the Home Theater Forum and one of the moderators as a beta tester (Gonk can fill you in). But I agree, that none of them even comes close to the "cult of personality" that Mark has. I am not even coming close to suggesting that the others are Mark. I am suggesting only that it helps to have a very pesonal involvement in advertising via forums on the internet and to the extent, you can "talk" to the owner, it helps sales. Nothing immoral about that, but I think it is what it is. . I think the other companies have the moral compass to stop when it crosses the line. I also see Audioholics as more of an AVS as far as sales of AV products go (they have a forum and they sell) although I agree with Curtis that it can have the appearance of impropriety since they also review. I am not in anyway suggesting impropriety however. Frankly, anyone that controls content and sells could be accused of same. In that regard, I don't envy the owners of AVS. Where do you draw the line?

 

[GirgleMirt]

Ah ok I see what you mean, the '=' threw me off. But yeah, ID can be rather impersonal, it's really up to the ID shops advantage to have a personal touch, and at least give the impression that they really care about their customers (as opposed to say, their money)...

As for ID companies participating (and advertising) in forums is really a grey area imo... A forum for audio enthusiasts shouldn't be used as a sales platform from manufacturers, and again, to point out to the infamous Schifter, it can be an example of way excessive everything. I know personally I was always annoyed by it...

And for christ sakes... Schifter:

I didn't run - I didn't hide

Can't read 2 sentences of his without rolling my eyes.

 

[Tex-amp]

Whoreheartedly agree.

Curtis- I just spewed beer at that! Paging Dr. Freud.

 

[Matt34]

Not surprising he's mad at audioholics for allowing people to comment freely on all the av123.com and Schifter issues.

Nope, he's mad because Gene and Clint made a total of eight posts in this thread "trashing" AV123....just ask him.

 

[Tex-amp]

Yeah I don't know what's wrong with that guy...

For the longest of time, craig was associated with his good buddy Mark Schifter, they had GTG parties together, napkin drawing products were being drawn and cooked up, av123.com had specials with craig's products (given away as freebies with their sales I think), craig did av123.com event(s?) at his place, he was sending out his personal sub(s?) to replace borked av123.com defective sub for free...

And for some reason, the honey moon now seems to be over. I guess association with unscrupulous charity thieves is bad for business...

Not surprising he's mad at audioholics for allowing people to comment freely on all the av123.com and Schifter issues.

You just laid out why so many think that Craig had a business relationship of some kind with MLS regarding AV123 beyond the abandoned Canadian distributorship of AV123 when so many questioned Craig's reviews of AV123 products in light of that partnership announcement.

Is that dude still around that used to point to the classic signs of narcissistic personality disorder regarding those two?

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

* Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
* Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
* Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
* Requires excessive admiration
* Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
* Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
* Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
* Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
* Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx36.htm

 

[cschang]

Curtis- I just spewed beer at that! Paging Dr. Freud.

That's funny!! I didn't even see that, and nobodyelse pointed it out! I will leave it.

 

[spl_nut]

avs123 site, speakers, LS-4 a BIG part of our future...

Something may not be as it seems.

Master Cabinet Man (Ruben, supplier of LS cabs) ends sentences with an ellipsis, an MLS trait. And writing styles, verbiage. Strange similarities.

"PERFECT!!!

I suppose a slight outward radius/bow would help with the sound dispersion limitations of a horizontal line source?"

This is coming from the new cabinet guy?

 

[spl_nut]

And the suggestion that AH doesn't compete, at some level, with av123 is nonsense. AH doesn't sell speakers?

 

[mike c]

And the suggestion that AH doesn't compete, at some level, with av123 is nonsense. AH doesn't sell speakers?

and so, WE, the audioholics forum should no longer talk about:

speakers
receivers
acoustic stuff
integrated amps
(basically most electronics)
subwoofers
cables

STFU

oh, here's some for you:

"go back and read what was posted"

"you don't have the intelligence to talk to us"

and

"stop with your inane postings"

 

[the grunt]

Please clarify. When you say "conned" are you referring to the raffles?

I was speaking to the business side:

I guess it depends on your definition of conned, but I would say everybody holding a GC or coupon for a product that no longer will be made has a legitimate claim they were conned. There are a lot of BMF coupons floating around.

But perhaps the raffles you refer to make a starker example. I usually skip reading about the raffles and focus on the posts dealing with the business stuff.

I think it is buyer beware when it comes to those gimmicks that were offered.

This is the issue that I think matters to new potential buyers. AV123 oldtimers have seen or experienced all they need to make an informed decision. Newcomers, however, may hear nothing of this or even the QC issues and could be lured into an “awesome” deal that goes south on them should prepay issues continue.

 

[majorloser]

And the suggestion that AH doesn't compete, at some level, with av123 is nonsense. AH doesn't sell speakers?

Gee, and how many speakers does the Audioholics Store manufacture?

The biggest part of the Audioholics Store's buisiness is the electronics and accessories, not the speakers.

 

[droht]

AH does sell speakers. They do compete with av123. They compete with virtually any and all companies that are mentioned on this web site. Given that, I think we need to get over it. If you think they are not fair in their approach you have options, but clearly they cannot operate their store and this forum with any credibility if they tiptoe around that. They sure seem to not pull punches. I don't recall any ridiculously glowing multi-part reviews about a new product they were selling, unlike what occurred on something like ELTs not too long ago over at av123.

 

[Chu Gai]

There have been some posts over there to suggest that the reason there has been so much nagativity towards AV123 over at Audioholics is because they are a competitor of AV123!

You see, I don't interpret Craig's statements as that. Based on other things he's writen, I see him as saying that if you've got two outfits, whether they're two car companies or ID direct companies, the principals ought not be directly involved in tearing arseholes into each other. The discussions we're having here are pretty tough ones.

 

[randyb]

You see, I don't interpret Craig's statements as that. Based on other things he's writen, I see him as saying that if you've got two outfits, whether they're two car companies or ID direct companies, the principals ought not be directly involved in tearing arseholes into each other. The discussions we're having here are pretty tough ones.

Isn't his posts then exactly what he says principals shouldn't do?

 

[Chu Gai]

Isn't his posts then exactly what he says principals shouldn't do?

I'm not sure Randy and I'm not trying to speak for Craig. I'm just giving you my take. Frankly though, over at TCA, there's still pressure being exerted by posters on matters like the LS-9 and the HR updates. Me, I'd rather leave issues like Craig this and Craig that out of it because it serves to dilute and deflect matters.