DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[stevo238]

First of all, kudos to Matt34 for handing Craigsub his a_s. As with most of Craig's posts, his m.o. is to insult, point to what he said, ("please take the time to read what I said") insult again, ("it might help you") and then back pedal. As if we didn't understand what he said the first time. My reputation may be crap here, but he's just a nasty man.

 

[randyb]

Yes. There was even a post in this thread kind of recently that mentioned the story behind that ban.

Personally, I don't see internet direct companies as being inherently any better or worse than other companies. You can get delays in product development, poor customer service, quality control problems, or dubious marketing tactics from any distribution channel. It's important to evaluate any company that you are going to buy a product from. We all have our personal favorites, and we all have some that we tend to steer away from. Often you can find companies that show up on either list, depending on who you ask.

I don't disagree, however, I think many consider the Internet as still somewhat risky to buy from-my wife, her family, others I know, etc. Some (not me) feel that if you don't buy personally from someone you lose control. I think part of Mark's success is that you feel like you know him "personally" and therefore you are safer. IMO, that is part of his initial brilliant success. Buyer beware. To be honest, I think it is fairly normal to develop more confidence in purchasing once the "personal touch" is added. Let's face it, Outlaw=Peter (widely known, even if he doesn't post directly,and Scott is sort of a surrogate), Audioholics= Gene, Salk=Salk, Ascend=David, Seaton=Seaton, etc. I know for sure that Jim Salk feels that Internet direct sellers are somewhat "in this together" because he told me that he didn't feel he was competing as much against other internet direct sellers as he was against a different model of selling=B&M. Somehow, I feel that if I was a newbie and told to go to AVS and people said internet direct and I happen to read about Mark, the raffles, etc., I would tend to be leery especially if I also read the various posts by people who think internet direct is a poor way of purchasing AV. That is why I think Mark has hurt internet direct and why if I was an owner of an internet direct company, I would be making every effort to distance myself from him. The industry is close and I think generally tends to protect their own. My feeling is that if they "protect their own" then they will be painted the same as their own. It is interesting to me because on the one hand the free exchange of opinions is necessary for a small internet company to gain tractions, but on the other hand if you don't have it, you have killed your golden goose.

Then again, Chu is the marketing guy so I defer to his opinion.

 

[majorloser]

There have been some posts over there to suggest that the reason there has been so much nagativity towards AV123 over at Audioholics is because they are a competitor of AV123!

Interesting...

And what does the Audioholics Store manufacture? NOTHING. It seems to me that they are an on-line retail store representing many different manufacturers with a far more diverse line of products. I don't see any competition there. Even if AV123 sells a set of speakers to a customer, there is still a vast amount of other equipment that they do not sell that is sold by the Audioholics Store.

Note I said retailer, not an internet direct manufacturer like AV123. As an on-line retailer, if a manufacturer's product doesn't sell they can easily remove the line from inverntory or liquidate. And there is no advanced sale of a future item that doesn't exist. No funny business with a retailer. It's either in stock or it is not. And it's brand name mechandise, not ID companies.

The arguement of being competitors is just lame. There is no reason they can't coexist since they are two totally different niches of a very large consumer electronics industry.

The only real similarity between the two is the operation of an on-line forum. But in the case of Audioholics it's in support of an on-line magazine, not a manufacturer's product line. I'm quite sure Audioholics makes the lion's share of the profits from the on-line advertisers. The Store has only been around for less than two years. The website since 2002 (?).

But it doesn't really matter. As usual CC is just acting like a spoiled child.

 

[randyb]

Interesting...

And what does the Audioholics Store manufacture? NOTHING. It seems to me that they are an on-line retail store representing many different manufacturers with a far more diverse line of products. I don't see any competition there. Even if AV123 sells a set of speakers to a customer, there is still a vast amount of other equipment that they do not sell that is sold by the Audioholics Store.

Note I said retailer, not manufacturer like AV123. As a retailer, if a manufacturer's product doesn't sell they can easily remove the line from inverntory or liquidate. And there is no advanced sale of a future item that doesn't exist. No funny business with a retailer. It's either in stock or it is not. And it's brand name mechandise, not ID companies.

The arguement of being competitors is just lame. There is no reason they can't coexist since they are two totally different niches of a very large consumer electronics industry.

The only real similarity between the two is the operation of an on-line forum. But in the case of Audioholics it's in support of an on-line magazine, not a manufacturer's product line. I'm quite sure Audioholics makes the lion's share of the profits from the on-line advertisers. The Store has only been around for less than two years. The website since 2002 (?).

But it doesn't really matter. As usual CC is just acting like a spoiled child.

I absolutely agree, but they do take orders and sell direct over the internet so there is the "trust" issue which in my opinion is justification for Gene and the owners to post their opinions of Mark's misdeeds.

However, I think that if the AV123 raffle issue was put to rest with a full and non-partisan third party audit of the raffles, and there were truly only two "underfunded" raffles, and a plan was made for full restitution, then that would go a long way toward at least establishing a moral compass of the owner of AV123.

 

[majorloser]

I absolutely agree, but they do take orders and sell direct over the internet so there is the "trust" issue which in my opinion is justification for Gene and the owners to post their opinions of Mark's misdeeds.

However, I think that if the raffle issue was put to rest with a full and non-partisan third party audit of the raffles, and there were truly only two "underfunded" raffles, and a plan was made for full restitution, then that would go along way toward at least establishing a moral compass of the owner of AV123.

There will still be the issue of taking money for merchandise in advance and then making people wait LONG periods of time before any restitution. But I'm sure that was just vicious rumors. Not based on any facts.

 

[randyb]

There will still be the issue of taking money for merchandise in advance and then making people wait LONG periods of time before any restitution. But I'm sure that was just vicious rumors. Not based on any facts.

You are right, but IMO, the raffles are at best immoral, and perhaps criminal, and it needs to be addressed first. Make no mistake my posts are in DEFENSE of Gene and the other owners posting on this sorry saga. Craig has posted it is wrong because Audioholics is competitive. I am calling him out because I think Gene has every right (and indeed an obligation) to say Mark's actions have hurt internet direct sales.

In summary, I think Mark's actions whether related to the raffles, prepayments, coupons, etc etc. are bad for the industry and hurt indirectly Audioholics, AVS, and any other direct AV internet seller.

That being said, the first order of business IMO, is making good on raffles held for charities. Then making good with customers orders.

I believe a full accounting of the raffles will tell us just how honest/dishonest this man really is. Perhaps Gene could post his thoughts on whether actions by Mark hurt the direct industry as a whole?

 

[majorloser]

This one gave me a chuckle when finally reading that thread tonight.

Originally posted by django1:
This is a typical "Craigism". Truth is not the object. Winning the argument at any cost is.

 

[cschang]

majorloser, I agree with everything agree as well, but Audioholics also reviews some items that it sells, correct?

 

[cschang]

You are right, but IMO, the raffles is at best immoral, and perhaps criminal, it needs to be addressed first.

I am not disagreeing but the first order of business IMO, is making good on raffles held for charities. Then making good with customers orders.

Perhaps we should have a poll, make good with customers first or raffles.

It was posted somewhere by I think m-fine that MLS was able to raise $400K for new amps, showroom remodel, and some other things. IMO as well, those funds should have went to raffles before the showroom. ID companies don't have a pressing need for a showroom.

 

[majorloser]

You are right, but IMO, the raffles is at best immoral, and perhaps criminal, it needs to be addressed first.

I am not disagreeing but the first order of business IMO, is making good on raffles held for charities. Then making good with customers orders.
I believe a full accounting of the raffles will tell us just how honest/dishonest this man really is.

If somebody has a record of dishonesty in everyday business practices, why would you expect something different in in any other aspect?

Tigers don't change their stripes.

(Hey, if I'm gonna get accused of hammering AV123, I might as well start now)

 

[Jed M]

and there were truly only two "underfunded" raffles

That is the problem. There are at least three "underfunded" raffles and a bunch more that could look suspicious given his history. If he would have came out after admitting to the first one and said, "OK, I f'ed up and I took from these 3 raffles but this is what I'm going to do about it..." I could forgive him if he followed through on what he said. It doesn't feel comforting that he was confronted on one raffle and admitted to it, then out came another raffle and he admitted to that one, then came out a third and he has been silent/vague on that one. It just makes me believe that it is more than three. He hasn't been honest this entire time and the fact that he keeps saying "two raffles" when its guaranteed three just confirms that he is probably hiding even more. I think an audit is definitely needed.

 

[cschang]

First of all, kudos to Matt34 for handing Craigsub his a_s. As with most of Craig's posts, his m.o. is to insult, point to what he said, ("please take the time to read what I said") insult again, ("it might help you") and then back pedal. As if we didn't understand what he said the first time. My reputation may be crap here, but he's just a nasty man.

Originally posted by django1:
This is a typical "Craigism". Truth is not the object. Winning the argument at any cost is.

I have many pages of examples of this stuff with arguments he and I have had publicly and privately.

 

[majorloser]

majorloser, I agree with everything agree as well, but Audioholics also reviews some items that it sells, correct?

Considering that they sell most of the largest AV consumer electronics manufacturer's gear that's kind of meaningless. Their primary business is an on-line magazine that reviews gear and provides industry news. It's been around many more years than the retail store. Certainly the two businesses will cross paths somewhere down the line.

Oh, and they also sell items that have bombed in their reviews.

 

[randyb]

I somebody has a record of dishonesty in everyday business practices, why would you expect something different in in any other aspect?

Tigers don't change their stripes.

(Hey, if I'm gonna get accused of hammering AV123, I might as well start now)

[[/I]I don't but we CAN keep the heat on at least indirectly. By the way, are you disagreeing with me or agreeing with me? My opinion is to keep the heat on, make it an industry issue so we can get some traction in the hopes that he will either run and hide or come clean. That and those that are in his corner can't wiggle out of it (CC). I would like to see this "come to a head". I am very unhappy with AVS for caving. They can delete posts without closing the thread. IMO, the owners have shown that they are "in the industry and protect their own" if they know that things aren't what they are as they seem. They have afterall, given him a voice to help his business. That much is obvious to me.

 

[GirgleMirt]

First of all, kudos to Matt34 for handing Craigsub his a_s. As with most of Craig's posts, his m.o. is to insult, point to what he said, ("please take the time to read what I said") insult again, ("it might help you") and then back pedal. As if we didn't understand what he said the first time. My reputation may be crap here, but he's just a nasty man.

Yeah I don't know what's wrong with that guy...

For the longest of time, craig was associated with his good buddy Mark Schifter, they had GTG parties together, napkin drawing products were being drawn and cooked up, av123.com had specials with craig's products (given away as freebies with their sales I think), craig did av123.com event(s?) at his place, he was sending out his personal sub(s?) to replace borked av123.com defective sub for free...

And for some reason, the honey moon now seems to be over. I guess association with unscrupulous charity thieves is bad for business...

Not surprising he's mad at audioholics for allowing people to comment freely on all the av123.com and Schifter issues.

The one thing he could have said, which would have made some sens, is that by reviewing products they sell (not sure if that was the case) and/or competing products (and I use the term loosely), there could well be some conflict of interest. But hey, Craig's been doing that for a long time.



I somewhat disagree that ID companies are mostly one guy. Axiom has nobody, Emotiva neither, SVS again, no one, Outlaw I knew but never heard of Peter, for Ascend, DaveF is very behind the scenes and has a very limited role in promotion, AH and Gene, sorry to say, but I had never heard of Gene, Salk, well for a long time he was selling his services, but the brand and products now seem to take a more forward role in promotion. But mostly it's simply the brand... When I purchased Ascends a couple years ago, I was clearly purchasing from the company Ascend, DaveF was pretty unknown to me and didn't really factor into the equation...

Surely, no other ID persona I know of comes close to the level of Schifter's. Peddling his wares everywhere he could, always hyping his products, always so ready to 'help' (sell) with his products, the cheesy 'Santa' sales and his whole comical act, he's like the McDonald clown everybody has come to know. He really took it to a whole new level. And it seemed to have worked very well, look at the cult following he lead for a couple of years... It was actually frightening. Yeah sure, seems it turned down many, but look at the fanatical following he was able gather. The Raffles were most probably part of the charade, hey, it looked good, probably helped many decide to buy from them because it made them feel safer and maybe even like they were buying from a charity. And that's what he pushed too, the whole 'family' crap...

I hate to say it, but most people seemed to buy it.


Wow... A brazillion posts before I posted this... I need to learn to type faster... (Reference: Donald Rumsfeld is giving the president(Dubya Bush) his daily briefing. He concludes by saying: "Yesterday, 3 Brazilian soldiers were killed.". "OH NO!" the President exclaims. "That's terrible!". His staff sits stunned at this display of emotion, nervously watching as the President sits, head in hands. Finally, the President looks up and asks, "How many is a brazillion?")

 

[cschang]

Considering that they sell most of the largest AV consumer electronics manufacturer's gear that's kind of meaningless. Their primary business is an on-line magazine that reviews gear and provides industry news. It's been around many more years than the retail store. Certainly the two businesses will cross paths somewhere down the line.

Oh, and they also sell items that have bombed in their reviews.

I guess I am thinking about the EMP speakers. I think there are only two online retailers, Audioholics being one of them.

The model is definitely unique as far as I know.

 

[cschang]

I somebody has a record of dishonesty in everyday business practices, why would you expect something different in in any other aspect?

Tigers don't change their stripes.

(Hey, if I'm gonna get accused of hammering AV123, I might as well start now)

And if people will research, even back to the newsgroups, MLS's history is not just with AV123.

 

[majorloser]

[[/I]I don't but we CAN keep the heat on at least indirectly. By the way, are you disagreeing with me or agreeing with me? My opinion is to keep the heat on, make it an industry issue so we can get some traction in the hopes that he will either run and hide or come clean. That and those that are in his corner can't wiggle out of it.

I just don't think the raffles is the major issue. It's the entire business operation and an issue of personal ethics. Why would you expect things to change just because he fixes a couple of past dishonest acts? It's like a crook getting caught and having to pay restitution to the victims of the crime. The crook is still a crook and will probably continue to do dishonest acts until their caught again.

Tigers don't change their stripes.

 

[cschang]

I just don't think the raffles is the major issue. It's the entire business operation and an issue of personal ethics. Why would you expect things to change just because he fixes a couple of past dishonest acts? It's like a crook getting caught and having to pay restitution to the victims of the crime. The crook is still a crook and will probably continue to do dishonest acts until their caught again.

Tigers don't change their stripes.

Whoreheartedly agree. The problem is, even though we have evidence of crooked acts, he has not been caught and forced to pay any restitution.

Like you say...so what if he fixes a couple of dishonest acts if he goes on to do it again? That's what he does...business as usual.

 

[GirgleMirt]

I just don't think the raffles is the major issue. It's the entire business operation and an issue of personal ethics. Why would you expect things to change just because he fixes a couple of past dishonest acts? It's like a crook getting caught and having to pay restitution to the victims of the crime. The crook is still a crook and will probably continue to do dishonest acts until their caught again.

Tigers don't change their stripes.

++

However, I think that if the AV123 raffle issue was put to rest with a full and non-partisan third party audit of the raffles, and there were truly only two "underfunded" raffles, and a plan was made for full restitution, then that would go a long way toward at least establishing a moral compass of the owner of AV123.

I'm sorry, but it's way past due. First of all, he didn't admit to anything willingly, he was caught. Plain and simple. Then, when it became known, he apologized. Somewhat. But you know what, as I said, way too late. The second he stole charity money, the moral compass of the owner of AV123 was well established.

And now, even the way he resolved the issue, which he hasn't resolved in the least, after MONTHS, is laughable. He's an hypocrit. His apologies are worthless, he was caught, and now he's trying to save face, without even remedying to the situation. PATHETIC.

His reply to the deleted avsforum thread: Actually, here's the jist of the thread, with some of the noise removed:

Schifter:

I'll happily answer this and then allow those to draw their own conclusions...

We have often asked ourselves if we had it to do all over again would we be as transparent as we have been. I know my answer would be yes - but I'm not sure if others here agree...

I have publicly apologized for underfunding two Charities... I have sent letters of apology to those involved - and I have publicly stated that I will send the balances owed (as some payments were made already)... I have felt horribly about this - and yes - my personal financial condition severely suffered when the poop hit the fan last year... In fact, it's been very hard from a personal as well as business perspective...

Our family and our business have been involved in charitable work for years... There is ample evidence of this in many places... We have not been able to do much for the last 18 months - but the future looks real good again...

I have withstood an onslaught of criticism over the last year or so - and much of it would have to be characterized as the truth... I delivered B Stock late because of the currency issues in Cali (v the dollar) and I was late with goods paid for... By the close of September both av123 and myself (re B Stock which I took care of) will be finally and thankfully all delivered... We are at approximately 75% delivered now...

Surely our issues have been well chronicled and no one is looking for any excuses... I made some real bad mistakes - I've apologized - and for the sake of my own health and the health of the company - I'm moving forward with solutions, answers and deliveries... I feel this is the ONLY thing I can do to show where my heart and the soul of this company rests...

Our problems are really mostly behind us now... I know no one really cares - but to weather the storm we have weathered is a good testimony to who we are as people... The MFW-15 amp (some 2100 of them affected - and the 1500 replacements) will cost our business over 400K once it's all done...

Lastly - will we stay in business... My personal belief is YES WE WILL... Our margins are good - we became a much smaller business, and we changed many things here post my own health issues... I'm glad for that... I've been doing this for 40 years and I'd hate to stop...

Throughout all of this I have tried to simply allow people to have their say - and I've never tried to peddle influence... That part said, I will share with you that I believe our forums at av are for the enjoyment of our mutually shared experiences with the products... If someone wants to call me or ask me any questions with respect to some of what has been "slung" - I'm here - I'm present - and I'm always at the disposal of our customers or any interested party... 877.543.7500 ext 301 - since returning to work from my hospital stay and forced home rest - I'm here every day answering the phones and to all of you...

My body of work from an audio standpoint or charitable one has been on display for an awfully long time... I am very ashamed of what I did last year - and not a day goes by where I don't feel just awful for doing some of the things I did last year... I am with EVERY DAY taking care of my commitments and those of my company by delivering on our collective promises... None of this is rhetoric - it's simply the fact...

We are all here joined at the hip and working each day... Those NOT WORKING HERE any longer are also still a big part of our lives and THEY TOO join in to help... av123 has been here for almost 11 years now - and we are very proud of our products and our Customer Support... There are always folks out there that can (and do) nip at our heels... they are also entitled to their say... Right or wrong - their opinion counts...

I'm not sure what more to say - so I'll just say this - I'm sorry for what I have done - and every day will serve to prove that while a tremendous mistake was made - I will fight hard to correct that, and do better by those hurt by my actions (including my family and friends)...

With respect to further replies on this subject any of you are welcome to call me or send me an e-mail... mls@**********. There is not sufficient time to answer everything or everyone... I hope this reply will be received in a proper and understanding light...

Wishing you all the very best...

mls

Chu's reply:

Well, Mark, what two charities are we talking about here? There's Fabrikant's for one. Only when he checked at Sloan Kettering months after did he discover that not a cent had been sent. As it became public some amount, but not the total had been conveyed to them.

There's also the matter of Derek Wayland and his daughter Bemi who were experiencing large medical costs as a result of her Type 1 Diabetes.

That's two.

There's also the matter of what happened with the money that was supposed to be sent to Hugh's friend who was dying, and subsequently died from liver cancer?

That's three, no?

Then there were the never ending raffles for the children of a Khaborovsk, Russia orphanage.

Hurrican Katrina.

The Ballet company in Colorado.

In fact, there were lots. I'll post them here later maybe. Charitable tax deductions can be taken. Not by those buying raffles but by the organization. Who was the organization? AV123, you, someone else, or some combination of all the above?

If you were caught on the ones above, and you were, there's every reason in the world to suspect that other raffles for individuals and organizations are equally suspect. After all, it's not like anyone can email Baby House #2 in Khaborovsk and check up.

Somehow, it is incumbent upon you to make a full and verifiable disclosure for any and all raffles that you have undertaken either on your own intitiative or upon AV123's. There must be the appropriate transparency that can only be provided by a reputable outside party that can provide an audit. That means hiring the appropriate firm that can go through the books, make the necessary contacts, cross check tax filings, and all that good stuff.

While you choose to use the term underfunded, the actions or is it inactions that you've taken and admitted to are theft at the very least. You are enormously fortunate in that no one has actively sought to involve various authorities for there are likely other charges - local, state, and federal - that could be brought.

You can no more go silently forward and look to do better than Mark McGuire can as when he told the Congressional invesitgative committee that he was not there to discuss the past. Until such time as he does, despite my onetime fondness for the man, his credibility and standing is tarnished. Until such time as you do a full and complete accounting of any and all raffles and charities that you've had some kind of hand in, so is yours.

Snomanick's:

Sorry MLS, but until the actions match the words IE: the raffles are paid, not just more promises to pay what should have already been sent, speakers are delivered (thinking of at least two people with LS9's that have had very long waits and lots of broken promises from you), and refunds are made, I just don't buy it.

Also, on a personal note, I find it reprehensible that you still call stealing form a charity "underfunding." Thats poor taste and shows a lack of remorse regardless of whatever else you scaffold the comment with.

You've had plenty of time, and plenty of chances, your words are meaningless now. Apparently they have been for quite awhile now.

I would have sent this to you via PM on your forum, but your box would probably still be full and your computer and phone would probably die as they have so many times in the past.

Jed M's:

+1
Well said.

Its hard believing a word you say Mark. I wish I could still find a way to believe you but it reads exactly the same as it always does.

#2

Mark, did you send everybody involved a letter of apology? I mean there were a lot of people on those lists that gave money that you stole from. Do you not count our money as people involved? If you did truly send out a letter to every single person involved, that is definitely a step in the right direction.

Also, I thought now we knew about Hugh's, Derek's and David's that you underfunded? How is that 2? The number keeps moving.