do i need a amp? when my reciever has almost as many watts?

[Adam]

If alcohol is the makings of a peace maker,
I'm afraid you're gonna have to kick it up a notch and start hitting the hard stuff.
Beer just ain't cuttin' it.

Oh, man. Now I'm going to have to start singing Kum Ba Yah. Well, typing it anyway...

 

[thedude65]

receiver or separate amp?

Hello everyone. My first time on this site and lucky enough to come across the exact thread i was hoping for. I have an 11 yr old a/v receiver(Yam995;100w x 5) and ready to upgrade. I have the B&W 602s3 fronts, lcr600s3 center, 601s3 rears, and a Klipsch ksw200 12" 200w sub. (i may go to 603 or 604s3's for fronts and move 602's to rears in the future). I was about set to buy the Onkyo tx-nr905( 140w x 7, toroidal transformer, silicon optix reon chip, build quality-54 lbs!! , any many other features i like). But then i hesitated when i started reading how the 905,875, and 805's run super hot and worried about the longevity of the 905. A few members at Audioreview suggested i try the Emotiva lpa-1( now UPA-7) and a mid-level receiver( like the Yam 663 or 863, to name a few)to act as a pre-pro. This combo would actually save me money over the 905. i was told the Emotiva 125w x 7, also toroidal transformer, 63 lbs!! would give me better quality, smoother,tighter, more dynamic controlled sound than ANY receiver in the $1000-$2000 range.I have a 20x15 room. If i could get better quality sound for the same or less money, then why not go the separate route? I would like the sound to be loud when it has to be without feeling strained. i'm not looking to blow the windows out. BUT AM I REALLY,REALLY,REALLY GOING TO HEAR A DIFFERENCE? SHOULD I GIVE IT A TRY OR AM I JUST WASTING MY TIME? IF SOMEBODY OUT THERE CAN HELP, PLEASE DO!! THANKS!!!

 

[Adam]

dude,

Hello, and welcome! Glad that you decided to join us.

The 905 is a nice unit, but I've also read about the issues with it and the others. Every year, technology that was cutting edge the year before finds its way into less expensive gear. So, receivers from this year that are cheaper than the 905 will have some of the tech from it. The important thing is to shop for the equipment that has the features that you want and that is in your price range. If I recall correctly, one of the selling points for the 905 was it's video processing. Useless to me, but perhaps of value to you.

I have a Pioneer receiver from three years ago that I use as a pre-pro for two Emotiva amps. I'm not a fan of Emotiva, but you can search for my posts if your interested - others are bored with my tales. Others here are quite happy with them, though, so keep that in mind.

Here's my suggestion - get a receiver that has the features that you want (surround sound processing, inputs, outputs, etc.) and give it a try with your speakers. If you are pleased, then you're done and don't need to spend any more. If you think that something is missing, then you can try an external amp. Depending on your speakers and how loud you like to listen, you may hear a difference. I can only tell a difference in the sound with the external amps when I play material much louder than I do on a daily basis.

Adam

 

[chadnliz]

It is interesting how so many just add negative thoughts and opinions of no value to somethin that is suppused to be a hobby, I offered my opinion which I qualified as not being an absolute truth and the attacks begin as always. I had a red flag because of another attacker and the way I talked to him, not for my views but either way thats a cheap shot to bring up and once again offers nothing useful.
I suppose the cool group here has most of the same views as those that like to mock and attack me but you guys go ahead and follow, I dont get in line.
I dont know why so many use so much energy just to be negative about how others view and go about this hobby but what a sad little life these folks must have, I am sorry life made you so bitter and that you find happiness stepping on everyone who you disagree with's toes.
I dont tell anyone to buy anything, I tell it like I see it offering my opinions and experience and time after time somebody has to dump all over it like its a personal threat to them personally, I like Vinyl poof enter Joe Schmoe every single time slaming it, I like Class A amps, poof enter Seth with his insults and dismissal, I have heard cables that I liked for what they did to the sound, poof here comes 4 maybe 5 folks with nothing but negative and at times personal attacks, I like tube gear, heres another guy dumping on it so it just makes you wonder where is the enjoyment in all this? Are you all here to talk about gear in all its forms or just a narrow list of items you find acceptable?
Some like tubes, prefer Vinyl, appreciate some cables for what they do for them, some would rather own seperates over a reciever, others are certain power conditioners help...........some are frugal or of limited funds and others enjoy spending larger amounts to get gear that makes them happy and yet all of these piss somebody off, doesnt that strike anyone as a bit patheitc? I never said you must own seperates, must own vinyl, exotic cables, tube gear, projectors, be in a dedictated room or spend a fortune to enjoy this hobby so get a life and try be add something of value. When sharing experiences in sound and video we share our thoughts and offer help and ideas when we have some, atleast thats what I attempt to do.
So there you have it, bring on the rants, insults, objections and snide remarks from the usual suspects because you have become so predictable I expect nothing less.

 

[Seth=L]

It is interesting how so many just add negative thoughts and opinions of no value to somethin that is suppused to be a hobby, I offered my opinion which I qualified as not being an absolute truth and the attacks begin as always. I had a red flag because of another attacker and the way I talked to him, not for my views but either way thats a cheap shot to bring up and once again offers nothing useful.
I suppose the cool group here has most of the same views as those that like to mock and attack me but you guys go ahead and follow, I dont get in line.
I dont know why so many use so much energy just to be negative about how others view and go about this hobby but what a sad little life these folks must have, I am sorry life made you so bitter and that you find happiness stepping on everyone who you disagree with's toes.
I dont tell anyone to buy anything, I tell it like I see it offering my opinions and experience and time after time somebody has to dump all over it like its a personal threat to them personally, I like Vinyl poof enter Joe Schmoe every single time slaming it, I like Class A amps, poof enter Seth with his insults and dismissal, I have heard cables that I liked for what they did to the sound, poof here comes 4 maybe 5 folks with nothing but negative and at times personal attacks, I like tube gear, heres another guy dumping on it so it just makes you wonder where is the enjoyment in all this? Are you all here to talk about gear in all its forms or just a narrow list of items you find acceptable?
Some like tubes, prefer Vinyl, appreciate some cables for what they do for them, some would rather own seperates over a reciever, others are certain power conditioners help...........some are frugal or of limited funds and others enjoy spending larger amounts to get gear that makes them happy and yet all of these piss somebody off, doesnt that strike anyone as a bit patheitc? I never said you must own seperates, must own vinyl, exotic cables, tube gear, projectors, be in a dedictated room or spend a fortune to enjoy this hobby so get a life and try be add something of value. When sharing experiences in sound and video we share our thoughts and offer help and ideas when we have some, atleast thats what I attempt to do.
So there you have it, bring on the rants, insults, objections and snide remarks from the usual suspects because you have become so predictable I expect nothing less.

Sorry Chadnliz, but as soon as you said this...

Just becaue thats what you think doesnt make it true, its not my fault you either cant hear or afford to experience better sound.

It just seemed like you where asking for it.

It appears you have covered all your bases, congratulations you trollish figure.

 

[Adam]

Alex, you may be right. This isn't working.

Time for the tequila...

 

[thedude65]

I'll listen to ya

i'm sorry you feel that way, chadnliz, but you're right. if you or anyone is willing to take the time to answer my post and offer an opinion to try to help my situation, i am thankful. if i can return the favor, i will. let's keep what we enjoy just that- enjoyable.. and informative.

 

[Adam]

if you or anyone is willing to take the time to answer my post and offer an opinion to try to help my situation, i am thankful.

Just in case you missed it (it's easy to do), I did answer your post. It's one above Chad's post.

 

[Alex2507]

Back to the topic. One reason for external amplification is to use a Behringer DCX-2496. Toys, we're just kids playing with toys.

Another reason for external amplification is to power DIY subs. More toys.

And finally, cool factor! C'mon, tell me you wouldn't preen just a little upon being asked,
"what's that?".

 

[chadnliz]

Sorry Chadnliz, but as soon as you said this...



It just seemed like you where asking for it.

It appears you have covered all your bases, congratulations you trollish figure.

And the hits keep on coming...now I am a troll, brilliant!


Cheapskate, thanks for noting my truth.

On topic, if you use a reciever for a pre-amp there is no promise of better sound at any power level, it all depends on the particular model...I have used an Onkyo TXNR900 with Parasound amps and heard an improvement, I have also used Carver and Proton amps with Pioneers and Onkyo recievers and heard nothing of value. More headroom in an external amp of atleast twice the power can never be a bad thing but its more complex, takes more space, cables and muscle to gain little if any benefit in the wrong situation. What would be nice is trying an amp from a friend or demo if possible to let your own ears answer the question.

 

[croseiv]

So true. I, however, am a slightly more rare breed - an internet omega male. Heck, I'm exposing my belly right now...

[Sorry in advance for the mental image. ]

LOL!!!!

 

[fmw]

So there you have it, bring on the rants, insults, objections and snide remarks from the usual suspects because you have become so predictable I expect nothing less.

Personally, I wouldn't have written a thing until you started insulting someone. I thought you deserved some grief for that. Apparently you feel you got some grief so that worked out pretty well.

 

[PENG]

Hello everyone. My first time on this site and lucky enough to come across the exact thread i was hoping for. I have an 11 yr old a/v receiver(Yam995;100w x 5) and ready to upgrade. I have the B&W 602s3 fronts, lcr600s3 center, 601s3 rears, and a Klipsch ksw200 12" 200w sub. (i may go to 603 or 604s3's for fronts and move 602's to rears in the future). I was about set to buy the Onkyo tx-nr905( 140w x 7, toroidal transformer, silicon optix reon chip, build quality-54 lbs!! , any many other features i like). But then i hesitated when i started reading how the 905,875, and 805's run super hot and worried about the longevity of the 905. A few members at Audioreview suggested i try the Emotiva lpa-1( now UPA-7) and a mid-level receiver( like the Yam 663 or 863, to name a few)to act as a pre-pro. This combo would actually save me money over the 905. i was told the Emotiva 125w x 7, also toroidal transformer, 63 lbs!! would give me better quality, smoother,tighter, more dynamic controlled sound than ANY receiver in the $1000-$2000 range.I have a 20x15 room. If i could get better quality sound for the same or less money, then why not go the separate route? I would like the sound to be loud when it has to be without feeling strained. i'm not looking to blow the windows out. BUT AM I REALLY,REALLY,REALLY GOING TO HEAR A DIFFERENCE? SHOULD I GIVE IT A TRY OR AM I JUST WASTING MY TIME? IF SOMEBODY OUT THERE CAN HELP, PLEASE DO!! THANKS!!!

You can get the 905 for around $1,500. I don't know how you can get a separate system for less and that it would sound better. So I bet you will not hear a difference if the two systems are compared properly, not better anyway.

As minimum, comparing them properly would mean using the source (example’s/DVD & player), same room/placement, same volume in pure direct mode for music, same surround format for movies, same interconnects; basically same everything including the speakers and then have someone else do the switching between the two systems for you so you can concentrate on listening for the difference. It is also important that you do not over stress either system to the point they would clip intermittently. I am not too concerned about that though since your room is not that big. If you can do this, even in a sighted test you may have tough time hearing a difference. Now, if you spend double the amount, that is $3,000 on that separate system, you may have a better chance hearing a difference if you listen to the kind of classical music that has very high dynamic range. That is mainly due to the generally better power reserve offered by power amplifiers. Even the 53.8 lb 905 is no match to the 63 lbs Emotiva in terms of power reserve and ability to handle difficult to drive speakers. That said, I noted that the B&W 600 series speakers do not seem to be hard to drive based on its 90 dB sensitivity, 8 ohms nominal, 4.3 ohms minimum and recommended amplifier power of 25 to 150W.

Put it another way, you will have a much better chance of hearing a difference (better) with the 905 paired with the B&W 700 series speakers than a $3,000 separate system paired with the B&W 600 series speakers. I am not stating this as facts, but only educated guess based on a combination of my own listening experience and interpreting published specifications. I could well be wrong. In the end you will have to find out for yourself.

 

[WmAx]

You can get the 905 for around $1,500. I don't know how you can get a separate system for less and that it would sound better. So I bet you will not hear a difference if the two systems are compared properly, not better anyway.

With that much money, one could get an Emotiva multi-channel amp(more amplification driving ability as compared to virtually all but the highest end receivers), a Yamaha (663 model?) surround receiver with pre-outs and 2 x Behringer DCX2496 units(for up to six main channels of processing power and multiple sub output controls). The DCX units will allow for far more adjustment/fine tuning/response shaping of the sound for ideal sound quality as compared to a receiver's crude built in EQ and crossover system will provide, assuming the owner of the gear will take the time to manually measure/set-up/adjust the system. Now, if the owner is lazy and wants to rely on the auto-EQ that a unit such as the 905 can do pretty well(but no way it can compare to the response optimization possible with the DCX devices), then perhaps the separate gear I suggested is not going to be of benefit.

-Chris

 

[PENG]

With that much money, one could get an Emotiva multi-channel amp(more amplification driving ability as compared to virtually all but the highest end receivers), a Yamaha (663 model?) surround receiver with pre-outs and 2 x Behringer DCX2496 units(for up to six main channels of processing power and multiple sub output controls).

You are right, he did refer to the 663/Emotiva multi channel amp first but later he mentioned separates. The 663/Emotiva could in fact cost him less but then he would still be using a receiver, not a truly separate system.

When people asked whether they would hear a difference I usually assume they meant listening to music in pure direct mode. If they meant processed sound then I think most likely they will hear a difference between different systems.

 

[gus6464]

Back to the topic. One reason for external amplification is to use a Behringer DCX-2496. Toys, we're just kids playing with toys.

Natalya Simonova said it best in Goldeneye, "Stop it, both of you. You are like boys with toys!". Although in this case it's all instead of both.

 

[Emusica]

Depending on your speakers and how loud you like to listen, you may hear a difference. I can only tell a difference in the sound with the external amps when I play material much louder than I do on a daily basis.

Adam

I'm lookng into possibly getting some Axiom M80's. I have a Sony STR DA7ES receiver.. I know the 80's are 4ohm but could I use my receiver without an external amp to power them or would my amp blow-up? I don't listen to extremely loud levels of movies/music. Just wondering.

 

[PENG]

I'm lookng into possibly getting some Axiom M80's. I have a Sony STR DA7ES receiver.. I know the 80's are 4ohm but could I use my receiver without an external amp to power them or would my amp blow-up? I don't listen to extremely loud levels of movies/music. Just wondering.

I am sure you can use that 21 Kg (46 lbs) Sony to power a pair of M80 as long as you don't play them too loud and your room is not too big (say less than 20X15X10). If you want it to sound decent you should leave the impedance selector switch at the 8 ohm position (I assume there is one). However, if you want to get the best out of the M80s you should consider adding a two channel amp (say 2X300W), assuming you are only getting two M80s for the L & R channels.

 

[thedude65]

Emotiva UPA-7/ Yam 863

You are right, he did refer to the 663/Emotiva multi channel amp first but later he mentioned separates. The 663/Emotiva could in fact cost him less but then he would still be using a receiver, not a truly separate system.

When people asked whether they would hear a difference I usually assume they meant listening to music in pure direct mode. If they meant processed sound then I think most likely they will hear a difference between different systems.

Wouldn't using a receiver such as the yamaha 863 in pure-direct mode as a pre-pro act like a pre-pro? i mention the yam863 because it is so up to date(hdmi 1.3, latest codecs,hd radio,xm,siruis, dual sub-outs, 7.1 pre-outs, and so on). I figured the Emotiva UPA-7(better quality power supply, cooler running) at $649 plus the yam863 at $640 for a total of $1290 might be a better idea than the Onkyo 905 for $1500 with its suspect heat issues. Is my thinking that far off?

 

[mazersteven]

I'm lookng into possibly getting some Axiom M80's. I have a Sony STR DA7ES receiver.. I know the 80's are 4ohm but could I use my receiver without an external amp to power them or would my amp blow-up? I don't listen to extremely loud levels of movies/music. Just wondering.

I have not read the specs on your receiver. But if it's not 4 ohm stable then yes you can do damage to your receiver. Most times a receiver will over heat and go into protection mode before something happens.