Do all amplifiers sound the same thread

[mtrycrafts]

"the crosstalk turned out to be much higher than I would have liked, lying just below –40dB across the band".

No thanks! Most AVRs have lower crosstalk than that!

The ATI have crosstalk of -100dB from 20Hz-20kHz.

I'll stick to Krell & the higher-end Mark Levinson if I were a billionaire.

Yep, that is not a special amp at all just expensive, I think

 

[mtrycrafts]

... If I were a billionaire I for sure would be buying something besides silly audio equipment.

..."

At least not expensive silly audio equipment. I think I would still watch movies at home and listen to good music if time permitted.

 

[KEW]

At least not expensive silly audio equipment. I think I would still watch movies at home and listen to good music if time permitted.

If I were a billionaire, time would definitely permit...but that might be part of the reason I'm not a billionaire.

 

[Steve81]

No one is saying "all amps sound the same."

They certainly aren't any more. Now we're restricting things to well designed, good quality solid state amplifiers in addition to the restrictions of low SPLs and easy to drive loudspeakers. I mean, at this point do we really need a blind test? I'd expect the results should be pretty well known in advance.

Tests are restricted to be fair.

Not exactly. Tests are restricted to control extraneous variables that can impact the result. In this case, speaker impedance and the output levels chosen have a direct effect on whether differences will be heard or not, so they're hardly extraneous for the purposes of this test. Is it fair to lesser amplifiers to hook them up to hard to drive 4 ohm speakers? Of course not, but that's the real world.

 

[PENG]

All I know is I can tell a difference, I bought my XPA3 used for $500 and bought my HK new for $1000 at the time....So I am not trying to justify a purchase by any means...just stating my experience.

Understood, and I was stating my own. I also know another member, ADTG, is using a Denon 3312 to drive his 4ohm (sort of) Phil 3 and apparently the system sounds crystal clear and rivals his other high end systems powered by Separates including some really high end ones such as the Denon AVP+ATI power amp.

I have 3 amps powering my HT system so I am not telling people not to go the separate route either. You are very lucky to be able to enjoy what you called "huge" improvement simply by adding an XPA-3, what else can I say? Nothing really.. Other than it seems incredible that you are getting such "huge" (I love that word as you can tell) improvements at "at nearly all listening volumes.....". You would think that 50 lb weight 805 shouldn't be holding anything back when it is only outputing a few watts, 4 ohms or 2 regardless.

One other thing to point out I did use my Onkyo 805 between the two and the 805 did not even come close to the HK

Wow, that's even more incredible!!

Like it has been mentioned....not a simple answer of yes or no....just a lot of it depends.

We are definitely on the same wavelength on this one.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Not exactly. Tests are restricted to control extraneous variables that can impact the result. In this case, speaker impedance and the output levels chosen have a direct effect on whether differences will be heard or not, so they're hardly extraneous for the purposes of this test. Is it fair to lesser amplifiers to hook them up to hard to drive 4 ohm speakers? Of course not, but that's the real world.

You mean driving amps beyond their design limit is not an extraneous event? What benefits you get? It is meaningless if all amps are routinely driven beyond their design limits, no? What does it tell you beyond differences in design limits?

 

[PENG]

They certainly aren't any more. Now we're restricting things to well designed, good quality solid state amplifiers in addition to the restrictions of low SPLs and easy to drive loudspeakers.

Steve, I guess I must have missed a few posts. I have not come across anything about "low SPLs and easy to drive....". I know what I posted, and I did report my findings in my quick experiment to demo I was able to listen to 85 dB average SPL driving a pair of R900 in a not so small room. 85 dB avg SPL, with peaks to >90 dB is not exactly low SPLs by most people's standard, not high but not low either right? I also don't think the R900 is particularly easy or difficult to drive either. And my amp was only cruising at around 1W or below (average) with very occasional peaks to may be 10W, so we can all do the math and figure out why my very old 120W (130W may be, just don't remember) has no trouble matching my separates doing such a job. My separates in that same room probably have twice as much clean power on tap but the excess would just be sitting there, not used. As far as being "well designed", I agree with 3 dB that it shouldn't need to be stated, this is Home Theater, HDTV, Receivers, Loudspeakers &mdash; Reviews and News from Audioholics afterall. I really thought it should be a given that amps in some HTIAB with >2% THD is not going to sound the same as amps such as EMO's with <0.1% THD, so we should not be surprised about this particular restriction. Or are you still in pedantic mode.

 

[Steve81]

You mean driving amps beyond their design limit is not an extraneous event?

Not if you're trying to find how amplifiers can sound different.

What benefits you get?

What benefits do you get from confirming yet again that all "well designed, good quality solid state amplifiers" sound the exact same when driving easy loads at low SPLs? If an amplifier does sound different, it doesn't meet the qualifications in the first place.

 

[PENG]

What benefits do you get from confirming yet again that all "well designed, good quality solid state amplifiers" sound the exact same when driving easy loads at low SPLs? If an amplifier does sound different, it doesn't meet the qualifications in the first place.

Confirming? I thought one way to confirm that would be to hold a DBT session in a location that most of us (Walter and Jeff R must be there though) can conveniently attend. Until then any time we touch on this topic the same groups of people from all sides will be recycling the same opinions, experiences and arguments... but until then, nothing's confirmed from the opposite sides.

 

[Steve81]

Steve, I guess I must have missed a few posts. I have not come across anything about "low SPLs and easy to drive....".

It's in the OP:

However, what if the load presented to the amp isn't overly demanding, the room isn't overly large and the volume kept at comfortably loud levels. If the receiver or amp are well within their power envelope and not anywhere near their limit, would there be a difference in sound?

As far as being "well designed", I agree with 3 dB that it shouldn't need to be stated, this is Home Theater, HDTV, Receivers, Loudspeakers &mdash; Reviews and News from Audioholics afterall. I really thought it should be a given that amps in some HTIAB with >2% THD is not going to sound the same as amps such as EMO's with <0.1% THD, so we should not be surprised about this particular restriction.

I guess my complaint is that if you limit the amplifiers to "well designed", and the amplifiers aren't being stressed in any way, the result is already a foregone conclusion. I don't know about you, but I'm a lot more concerned about what amps will get me to the bleeding edge of performance rather than what amps sound the same at moderately high levels on an easy to drive set of speakers.

Or are you still in pedantic mode.

Always My wife loves that about me too

 

[Steve81]

Confirming?

Suffice it to say, this wouldn't be the first blind test trial ever performed on the topic.

As far as I'm concerned, the science regarding amplifier performance and how it relates to subjective impressions is pretty well established. And if it isn't clear, I'm a subscriber of Peter Aczel's thoughts on the subject. Either an amplifier is delivering sufficiently good measured performance into a load, or it isn't; if it isn't, the results will be audible. It's not really any different from speaker wire IMO: either it gets the job done properly or it doesn't. But if the point of this thread/test is only to beat the old dead horse, by all means have fun

 

[PENG]

Suffice it to say, this wouldn't be the first blind test trial ever performed on the topic.

I think you are right, it wouldn't be the first, but I am not aware of one being done in recent years, that get published.

 

[ski2xblack]

Another turd dumpling for the dead-horse stew...

This is an article on another, often controversial topic. What is the forum's opinion on this piece?

 

[PENG]

This is an article on another, often controversial topic. What is the forum's opinion on this piece?

It seems to me at least the guy knows what he's talking about. I think I read it before but will read it again more carefully this time.

 

[cpp]

Another thread on blind listening test,

Boston Audio Society - Wishful Thinking article

 

[3db]

Not exactly. Tests are restricted to control extraneous variables that can impact the result. In this case, speaker impedance and the output levels chosen have a direct effect on whether differences will be heard or not, so they're hardly extraneous for the purposes of this test. Is it fair to lesser amplifiers to hook them up to hard to drive 4 ohm speakers? Of course not, but that's the real world.

SO the real world issue revolves around the load which is the speaker and not the amp. SO if the amp is pushed beyond its design limits, it will sound different. Lets throw cables and interconnects into this while your at it, throw away all DBT tests, charts and graphs simply because you do not agree with the premise.

 

[3db]

Not if you're trying to find how amplifiers can sound different.

You really do like arguing about nothing. The premise was not make all amps sound different but the same given a set of conditions which BTW exist in the real world by many MANY speakers. I never said that amps cannot sound differenty nor was that ever implied. Who p?ssed in your bowl of cornflakes?

What benefits do you get from confirming yet again that all "well designed, good quality solid state amplifiers" sound the exact same when driving easy loads at low SPLs? If an amplifier does sound different, it doesn't meet the qualifications in the first place.

Nor is their benefits of driving an amp beyond its limits unless you are into fixing tweeters or crossovers.

 

[Steve81]

It seems to me at least the guy knows what he's talking about. I think I read it before but will read it again more carefully this time.

Presumably Nelson Pass has some idea of what he's doing, and admittedly this is above my pay grade. OTOH, without actually demonstrating in real terms how big of a problem negative feedback is, it seems like a lot of empty talk.

I mean, here's a relatively average mid-level receiver:

His elephant on the dance floor (IM distortion) doesn't exactly appear to be a massive problem, at least with this particular model.

It's also worth noting number five on the list from someone whose pay grade it isn't above:
http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would just say that if the sound quality of your speakers is awesome to you at all the volumes your heart desires, then don't worry so much about the "measurements and specs" of the amps.

 

[3db]

It seems to me at least the guy knows what he's talking about. I think I read it before but will read it again more carefully this time.

I like his methodical approach. What he says makes sense based on background. However, I would like to see more of a correlation between the subjective experience and measured levels of distortions