Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[PENG]

Thanks PENG, I forgot to mention on that A1050 he can switch to 4 Ohm setting. Now it seems maybe, to me anyway that Yamaha may have changed up something in there amp section. But I have a better understanding now. Even Onkyo AVR'S at least their upper and a can handle 4 Ohm on all channels. Why Yamaha doing that? To cut cost?

Why not use the calculator to figure out how much power he really needs first? Using the 4 ohm setting may result in reduced dynamic impacts, I would never do that myself.

 

[Phase 2]

Why not use the calculator to figure out how much power he really needs first? Using the 4 ohm setting may result in reduced dynamic impacts, I would never do that myself.

Oh yeah forgot about that!

 

[Verdinut]

I was a bit curious as well, and this appears to be the case according to User Manual RX-A1080 page 23:

Under its default settings, the unit is configured for 8-ohm speakers. When using a 6-ohm speaker for any channel, set the speaker impedance to “6 Ω MIN”. In this case, you can also use 4-ohm speakers as the front speakers.​

That said, it does not explicitly warn about using more 4-ohm speakers.

Edit: The user manual for A2080/A3080 has the same wording.

Also, the front speakers would include the center speaker. Most of the needed amp power is for the 3 front speakers. The center channel requires as much and even more power than either the left or the right one at times when playing action films or wide dynamic content with classical music.

Unless one plays at unusually high volumes, IMO there should be no worry about 4 ohms speakers also being driven for the surround channels. These require significantly less power than the front channels.

However, one should not then set the AVR to the all channel stereo mode.

 

[highfigh]

You think the engineers at one of the biggest companies in the world designed the A1080 (which is probably among their best selling AVR) to be able to power only a pair of 4 ohm speakers?

What is your rationale?

The quick answer- it costs more and they wanted to hit a price point. And it's 'one pair', which could imply that others would also be connected since it's an AVR, not just stereo. 'A pair' might imply that ONLY one pair of 4 Ohm speakers could be connected.

 

[Verdinut]

The quick answer- it costs more and they wanted to hit a price point. And it's 'one pair', which could imply that others would also be connected since it's an AVR, not just stereo. 'A pair' might imply that ONLY one pair of 4 Ohm speakers could be connected.

As quoted by Trell above, on Page 23 of the manual for the RX-A1080, it refers to connecting 4 ohms speakers to the front channels. IMO, this would include the center channel which often necessitates more power than the left or right channel.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The quick answer- it costs more and they wanted to hit a price point. And it's 'one pair', which could imply that others would also be connected since it's an AVR, not just stereo. 'A pair' might imply that ONLY one pair of 4 Ohm speakers could be connected.

I don’t blame Yamaha or anyone else trying to cover themselves with extremely conservative wordings. Probably good for business against lawsuits.

But I’m sure you’ve seen people with the RX-A1080/1070 with multiple 4 ohm speakers in their 5.1/7.1 systems, right?

Ever actually seen the AVR incapable of powering them?

 

[Landmonster]

One thing many of us have seen is that many people exaggerate.

If we were born yesterday, we would think all the Yamaha AVR out there (series 1000 and below) would blow up because so many speakers (even cheap ones) dip down to 4 ohms and below 4 ohms.

Also keep in mind many things measured in the lab don’t represent the real world. The All-Channels-Driven test is one example.

When Gene torture-tested the Yamaha MX-A5000 amp for 7Ch Driven, it went into protection mode. Many inexperienced people would interpret the result as “Don’t connect more than five speakers to the Yamaha MX-A5000 amps”.

But Gene, thousands of people, and I have connected more than 5 speakers (many people connect 11 speakers, I connect 9 speakers) to this amp in a large room playing loud sound.

Many people have connected 7 speakers (that dip down 4 ohms) to the Yamaha A1080 without any kind of issues.

That’s why people come here to learn the real stuff. We set them straight.

So... one of my concerns with the RX-A1080 is the power. I assume the sound quality is fine for an AVR, and it has all the latest generation specs, DACs, etc.

It lists 110 WPC @ 8ohms, but only has 450 "watt power consumption". Does this mean the power supply is rated to 450 watts?

If so, what happens when all channels are driven? (450/7 channels is only 64 watts per chanel, but tthat seems little simplistic)
See details: https://www.zkelectronics.com/compare/yamaha-rx-a2080/yamaha-rx-a1080/

Comparatively, the A2080 has 490 watts "power consumption"? Denon X4500 has 710watts

 

[lovinthehd]

Hard to know what it means if they don't specify the standard or under what conditions, eh? Maybe @M Code can fill us in (again?) on the usual spec that is reflected there.

 

[Verdinut]

I may be wrong but I think that a manufacturer's published power consumption for an AVR is just an average figure, and that the unit will draw more current when operating at high volumes close to its limits before clipping, or when driving 4 ohms speakers which draw more current.

 

[Landmonster]

I would kind of like to know the overall wattage draw of each of the electronics, actually.

How many powered-subwoofers, amps, and receivers can one person plug into a standard 15 amp wall outlet?

 

[lovinthehd]

I would kind of like to know the overall wattage draw of each of the electronics, actually.

How many powered-subwoofers, amps, and receivers can one person plug into a standard 15 amp wall outlet?

Right now I've got a plasma tv, one mono sub amp and two 2ch sub amps and an avr and other misc stuff off one 15A wall outlet. I'm not trying to trip breakers, tho.

 

[Verdinut]

I would kind of like to know the overall wattage draw of each of the electronics, actually.

How many powered-subwoofers, amps, and receivers can one person plug into a standard 15 amp wall outlet?

In a home regular size living room, and for listening at normal sound levels, you can plug a lot of equipment on a 15 amp circuit.

See the following post:

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/pairing-amp-to-speaker.114648/#post-1314401

 

[KEW]

You think the engineers at one of the biggest companies in the world designed the A1080 (which is probably among their best selling AVR) to be able to power only a pair of 4 ohm speakers?

What is your rationale?

It isn't that they don't know how to do it, it is that they chose not to!

While I haven't seen anything specifically mentioning the A1060, the A860 in the Aventage series has some serious power issues!

I am surprised you missed it!
Aside from the review, I think I have posted this at least a dozen times here! Based on Gene's testing of the $900 Yamaha RX-A860, there is good reason to believe Yamaha is cutting corners in their power supply! Here are his comments:

While the RX-A860 is fine driving small bass-managed 8 ohm speakers, this is the first time I'd actually caution people against using 4 ohm speakers or even running 8 ohm tower speakers on the “large” setting. I’ve never said this about a Yamaha before. It's sad that a $400 predecessor from the very same company offered a more robust amp and power section than this product, which has AVENTAGE moniker stamped on it. To pour further salt on the power wound, the preamp out section of this receiver is a bit weak, making it critical to match with a high gain amplifier to ensure the preamp itself doesn't clip while driving external amplification. I'd like to see Yamaha beef up the amp section so the current limiting could be a little less restrictive and for God's sake, please give us a clean 2Vrms output from the pre-outs of ALL your AV receivers!

Perhaps more telling is that Gene did not publish CFP-BW test results for the A860 into 4 Ohms despite it being SOP to measure this. The intro to the "Power Measurements" section even says they measured it, but the results were not published:

Power Measurements
Using our Audio Precision APx585 8-channel HDMI analyzer, we conducted a full barrage of multi-channel amplifier tests on Yamaha RX-A860 per our Amplifier Measurement Protocol. We tested power using three methods all of which were taken at < 0.1% THD + N:

• Continuous Full Power Bandwidth (CFP-BW) from 20Hz to 20Khz into 8 and 4-ohm loads (up to two-channels)

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-a860/measurements

At this point, I may be beating a dead horse into the ground (I have a penchant for mixed metaphors),but here is the review of the $1000 Denon AVR-X3300H. If you scroll down to the Power Measurement section, you can see that Gene presents the A860 measurements in the first table followed by the X3300 measurements in the second:
https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

Note that Gene only publishes 10 Power tests for the A860, while he publishes 17 tests for the 3300!
Also note that the 3300 puts 165Watts into two channels for 1kHz powersweep while the Yamaha only puts 163Watts into one channel! Similarly, for the 1kHz powersweep into 5 channels into 8 ohms, the A860 puts out 37 WPC, while the Denon does 88.6WPC!

The damning thing is we do not know which Yamaha AVR's have similar design philosophy. I am sure their higher end products are just as rigorous as ever, but the fact that they are producing a $900 7 channel amp that couldn't muster printable results powering CFP-BW into two channels at 4 ohms is pretty damning... and the fact they gave it a weak preamp output which makes it a poor candidate for external amplification just rubs salt into the wound!

Understand that I take no joy in trashing Yamaha! I have a couple of their amps, an older AVR, and 4 of their saxophones that I love! Also when I rode a motorcycle they were my brand of choice!
However, their decision to produce a AVR this poor at this price level is shameful! There have been a coupe of people show up on our board who were looking for advice trying to troubleshoot their system and replacing these AVR solved all of their problems.
I just cannot understand why a company with Yamaha's hard-earned reputation for quality would produce a product like this that raises the "buyer beware" flag!?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It isn't that they don't know how to do it, it is that they chose not to!

While I haven't seen anything specifically mentioning the A1060, the A860 in the Aventage series has some serious power issues!

I am surprised you missed it!
Aside from the review, I think I have posted this at least a dozen times here! Based on Gene's testing of the $900 Yamaha RX-A860, there is good reason to believe Yamaha is cutting corners in their power supply! Here are his comments:


Perhaps more telling is that Gene did not publish CFP-BW test results for the A860 into 4 Ohms despite it being SOP to measure this. The intro to the "Power Measurements" section even says they measured it, but the results were not published:


https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-a860/measurements

At this point, I may be beating a dead horse into the ground (I have a penchant for mixed metaphors),but here is the review of the $1000 Denon AVR-X3300H. If you scroll down to the Power Measurement section, you can see that Gene presents the A860 measurements in the first table followed by the X3300 measurements in the second:
https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

Note that Gene only publishes 10 Power tests for the A860, while he publishes 17 tests for the 3300!
Also note that the 3300 puts 165Watts into two channels for 1kHz powersweep while the Yamaha only puts 163Watts into one channel! Similarly, for the 1kHz powersweep into 5 channels into 8 ohms, the A860 puts out 37 WPC, while the Denon does 88.6WPC!

The damning thing is we do not know which Yamaha AVR's have similar design philosophy. I am sure their higher end products are just as rigorous as ever, but the fact that they are producing a $900 7 channel amp that couldn't muster printable results powering CFP-BW into two channels at 4 ohms is pretty damning... and the fact they gave it a weak preamp output which makes it a poor candidate for external amplification just rubs salt into the wound!

Understand that I take no joy in trashing Yamaha! I have a couple of their amps, an older AVR, and 4 of their saxophones that I love! Also when I rode a motorcycle they were my brand of choice!
However, their decision to produce a AVR this poor at this price level is shameful! There have been a coupe of people show up on our board who were looking for advice trying to troubleshoot their system and replacing these AVR solved all of their problems.
I just cannot understand why a company with Yamaha's hard-earned reputation for quality would produce a product like this that raises the "buyer beware" flag!?

Oh, the debate is on!

1. We’re not even talking about models under the RX-A1080 series. This is just about the A1080.

2. Have you ACTUALLY SEEN a Yamaha A800 series AVR go into protection mode in REAL LIFE with real world contents powering speakers that go down to 4 ohms (which I would say include most speakers)?

It’s one thing to theorize based on lab results. It’s another thing to actually see it happen in the real world playing real world contents.

Have you seen actual reports from people saying their A860 are going into protection mode?

I am sure you are aware that the ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN test does not apply to real world contents. Otherwise there would be millions of complaints.

As I’ve posted many times on the forum. For a few years I had a cheap $400 5.1 AVR rated at only 50WPC that powered five DefTech speakers that all dipped into the 2.7 ohms and 3.5 ohms (BP7000, BP7001, CLR3000). The room was 15 x 18 x 15’ ceiling. Volume was always quite loud. And not once did this cheap a$$ AVR go into protection mode.

I find it extremely hilarious when I see people say that all these 100WPC AVRs cannot even power more than two 4-ohms speakers.

Before we start calling them “shameful”, let’s get some ACTUAL REAL WORLD proof other than theories based on lab measurements.

 

[Andrein]

Oh, the debate is on!

1. We’re not even talking about models under the RX-A1080 series. This is just about the A1080.

2. Have you ACTUALLY SEEN a Yamaha A800 series AVR go into protection mode in REAL LIFE with real world contents powering speakers that go down to 4 ohms (which I would say include most speakers)?

It’s one thing to theorize based on lab results. It’s another thing to actually see it happen in the real world playing real world contents.

Have you seen actual reports from people saying their A860 are going into protection mode?

I am sure you are aware that the ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN test does not apply to real world contents. Otherwise there would be millions of complaints.

As I’ve posted many times on the forum. For a few years I had a cheap $400 5.1 AVR rated at only 50WPC that powered five DefTech speakers that all dipped into the 2.7 ohms and 3.5 ohms (BP7000, BP7001, CLR3000). The room was 15 x 18 x 15’ ceiling. Volume was always quite loud. And not once did this cheap a$$ AVR go into protection mode.

I find it extremely hilarious when I see people say that all these 100WPC AVRs cannot even power more than two 4-ohms speakers.

Before we start calling them “shameful”, let’s get some ACTUAL REAL WORLD proof other than theories based on lab measurements.

Used to own A860. And though it never went into protection mode despite me using all channel stereo all the time, I think it started distorting. This is why I bought power amp which fixed the problem. Though after Gene's article on A860, i replaced it with A1070 just in case.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Used to own A860. And though it never went into protection mode despite me using all channel stereo all the time, I think it started distorting. This is why I bought power amp which fixed the problem. Though after Gene's article on A860, i replaced it with A1070 just in case.

1. Definitely nice to get the A1000, A2000, and A3000 series for the main HT.

2. Since we were really debating the A1000 series, not the A800 series, I am glad the A1000 worked out great for you.

3. What kind of distortion did you think you hear? Did you hear this distortion BEFORE the A860’s review?

4. I think All Channel Stereo Mode represents ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN more than anything. And the fact that the A860 never even went protection mode speaks volumes.

 

[Phase 2]

My quick take:

1. Emotiva
Pros- Sometimes lower cost (when compared apples to apples on features),Dirac (some think it's better than Audyssey or ARC, some don't).
Cons - Infamous for bug issues, when members complain on EMO forum they get banned, perceived as value-brand, not high-end, HDMI compatibility

2. NAD
Pros - Name brand, perceived as high-end
Cons - Reliability issues, cost, lack features, HDMI compatibility

3. Anthem
Pros - Name brand, perceived as high-end, ARC (some think it's better than Audyssey or Dirac, some don't).
Cons - Cost, HDMI compatibility, ARC difficult for some to set up.

4. Denon/Marantz (DM)
Pros - Name brand, Audyssey (some think it's good, some don't),frequent big sales
Cons - Reliability, HDMI compatibility, bad remote app for iOs and Android.

5. Yamaha
Pros - Name brand, most reliable brand, only major brand that extensively tests for HDMI compatibility, best remote app for iOS and Android, quick easy adjustment for Subwoofer and Center Dialogue trim levels.
Cons - Too many DSP modes, YPAO sucks, Good4it could not get his WiFi, Virtual speakers, Wireless speakers and sub, and Music Streamers to work 100% on his RX-A3080, usually not on sale like Denon.

6. Onkyo
Pros - Cheap prices
Cons- Reliability, HDMI compatibility- just sucks, don't even think about it.

7. Sony
Pros- Best 5 YR warranty on their ES AVR (Bryston is only other brand that offers a 5 YR warranty on their AVP),works great with other Sony products (TV).
Cons - Lack features, don't make any Pre-pros (only make AVR),not highly regarded in the AVR world.

8. Pioneer
Pros - Prices
Cons - Reliability, lack features, HDMI compatibility, associated with Onkyo

ADTG, nice post very subjective take on all the units. Honest and to the point. I just reread Gene's on Yamaha's A860, he does say he doesn't recommend, the pre-amp output is weak. Andrew, as much as I love my lil TSR- 7790 and it has perform flawlessly, I have to wonder why Yamaha drop the ball on their A860? Maybe Onkyo not looking to bad uhu?

 

[Phase 2]

I had a potential client who told me he was concerned about this so I read the A1080 manual and it was the first time in a long while I had seen that ohms warning. So, I called Yamaha tech support and talked to a really knowledgeable rep. He told me that AVR was not designed to handle more than two 4 ohm loads period. He was adamant about it.

Having worked with so many brands including Denon, Marantz, ATI, Emotiva, Outlaw etc. that are mostly ohms agnostic, this was a first for me.

Gene did test the A860, I went back and read his findings, Yes it didn't come out to good especially with the pre-amp output voltage. One has wonder what Yamaha was thinking, even Gene wasn't happy with the test results. You made a valid point.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ADTG, nice post very subjective take on all the units. Honest and to the point. I just reread Gene's on Yamaha's A860, he does say he doesn't recommend, the pre-amp output is weak. Andrew, as much as I love my lil TSR- 7790 and it has perform flawlessly, I have to wonder why Yamaha drop the ball on their A860? Maybe Onkyo not looking to bad uhu?

I think most AH would recommend Yamaha 1000, 2000, and 3000 series for serious HT anyway.

For Denon, most AH would recommend the comparable X3000, X4000, and up for serious HT.

For second or third systems, I wouldn't hesitate on getting the lower Yamaha, Denon, Marantz models.

Although I've seen plenty of regular non-AH people in the real world use these same lower-end Yamaha and Denon models with 5-7 speakers just fine.

But we Audioholics do have to maintain a higher standard and image.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Although we have been debating the Yamaha RX-A1080, not the A860 or other Yamaha, I also want to inject the lab results vs real world performance of another Yamaha model just as an example of lab vs real world.

Read the AH's review and lab measurements of the Yamaha MX-A5000 amp. On paper/lab, it might look "shameful" as Kurt would rightly put it.

I mean we are talking about an 11-Channel amp that costs $3,000. But the PROTECTION CIRCUIT is so strict that if you performed a 7-CH All-Channel-Driven lab test, it would FAIL. It would go into protection mode!

Yet, many people have hooked up 11 speakers to this amp.

I hooked up 9 RBH speakers to this amp. The RBH SX-T1/R (Kurt has 2 of these babies ) go down to 4 ohms. Five of these babies are hooked up to this amp plus 4 other RBH Atmos speakers. Playing loud volumes from a distance of 18 FT away in a 26' x 22' x 14' ceiling room. The amp seems to be powering all 9 speakers with absolute ease, like a walk in the park. Stays cool and calm. Absolute pure music to my ears.

Yet, if you read the AH's review of the MX-A5000 and saw that it went into protection mode when powering more than FIVE speakers, you'd be rightly concerned.

This emphasizes the ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN fallacy.