Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
Well undoubtedly in a forum you're going to get both advice and opinions which may agree or disagree. Seriously, about using the speakers "wattage" ratings to determine amps needed....gotta work on that. If you have room for some real subs, that would be another idea/opinion :)
Agreed in the deftech but I think he said one of them is a PB16 Ultra.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
LOL my brain farted at the cubes....didn't notice the real sub. :) What purpose does the 'cube have?
Imo none lol especially when paired with the ultra. Was thinking op might elaborate.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
You all are making me smile.
Your are worse (just slightly though) than me on putting some much value on numbers.:D I would just use the Denon's amp for the other 8 channels until there is a real need for more "power" for whatever reasons down the road. I am using an 8 channel power amp too, the MM8003 but I bought it when I switched to prepros and now that I am back to AVR I no longer need it but I like that amp too much to let it go, unless someone offer me at least $2,000.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
Your are worse (just slightly though) than me on putting some much value on numbers.:D I would just use the Denon's amp for the other 8 channels until there is a real need for more "power" for whatever reasons down the road. I am using an 8 channel power amp too, the MM8003 but I bought it when I switched to prepros and now that I am back to AVR I no longer need it but I like that amp too much to let it go, unless someone offer me at least $2,000.
It’s definitely easy to get stuck on academics. Especially in this rabbit hole lol. I, like you enjoy the look of Marantz gear. The porthole is basically useless, but there seems to be a symmetry to the front that appeals to me. It’s nice and simple too.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Instead of focusing on ONE number and ONE source, look at the overall balanced picture.
Not just one source, ASR's measurements do correlate to a high degree with Audioholics and hometheaterhifi.com, even Stereophiles on the same or very similar models measured. For the Denon models, ASR is the only one that has measured a few of the recent models, but you apply logic, and compare the Denon measured to the Marantz measured, then you are not focusing on one source either.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It’s definitely easy to get stuck on academics. Especially in this rabbit hole lol. I, like you enjoy the look of Marantz gear. The porthole is basically useless, but there seems to be a symmetry to the front that appeals to me. It’s nice and simple too.
Some would complain they couldn't see the tiny display, but if I want to see the display from 11 feet I could just leave the flap door open.
 
S

Sachb

Full Audioholic
Some would complain they couldn't see the tiny display, but if I want to see the display from 11 feet I could just leave the flap door open.
Ya you could do that, but also damage the flap or break it completely if somone by chance tripped on it, or if you had kids at your house.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Not just one source, ASR's measurements do correlate to a high degree with Audioholics and hometheaterhifi.com, even Stereophiles on the same or very similar models measured. For the Denon models, ASR is the only one that has measured a few of the recent models, but you apply logic, and compare the Denon measured to the Marantz measured, then you are not focusing on one source either.
Okay, that makes sense.

I should have said, "Don't just focus on the numbers".

It doesn't matter EVEN if all the sources say the same thing. They are still just numbers.

The numbers don't tell you if one component sounds better than another component, or if one component is more reliable or more functional or produces less heat.

Again, back in the days when 5 different magazines show the same NUMBERS, we don't just focus on the numbers because we listen to the components and speakers and overall system, not the numbers.

Case in point is when audiophiles buy a $5500 AVR just because of the numbers on ASR or on any other sites.

Maybe this happened "back in the days", but I can't recall a time when people said they bought a $5500 AVR, instead of a Pre-pro, purely based on some noise and THD numbers.
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
Some would complain they couldn't see the tiny display, but if I want to see the display from 11 feet I could just leave the flap door open.
The GUI is usually handy enough as well.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Okay, that makes sense.

I should have said, "Don't just focus on the numbers".

It doesn't matter EVEN if all the sources say the same thing. They are still just numbers.

The numbers don't tell you if one component sounds better than another component, or if one component is more reliable or more functional or produces less heat.

Again, back in the days when 5 different magazines show the same NUMBERS, we don't just focus on the numbers because we listen to the components and speakers and overall system, not the numbers.
Then again subjective reviews don't do much for telling you how components "sound" either :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Then again subjective reviews don't do much for telling you how components "sound" either :)
No they don't. The only thing they are good for is maybe talk about the features and functionality of the components.

The numbers are inaudible. The opinion about SQ is too subjective.

The main reason I looked at those magazines was for the PICTURES of the components. :D
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
No they don't. The only thing they are good for is maybe talk about the features and functionality of the components.

The numbers are inaudible. The opinion about SQ is too subjective.

The main reason I looked at those magazines was for the PICTURES of the components. :D
Let alone that your subjective impression of the "sound" of gear can translate to someone else. Kind of like worrying about it in well built and spec'd electronic gear.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I think it is because he prefers one that has the best possible "sound quality" mathematically speaking (he sort of invented that term, not my credit:D), not audibly speaking.;)
Wait, if the X8500 is mathematically "ranked #1", why didn't he just buy the X8500 and saved money? :D

What if ASR measured the a110 and got LOWER ratings? Anything is possible. :D

The a110 might have a SINAD of 102dB, which would mean it sounds 1dB worse than the 103dB X8500. Haha. Just kidding. :D
 
G

Golfx

Full Audioholic
Hi all. Lovingthehd jokingly asked about the deftech supercube. It was a legacy purchase from 2007 along with the mounted surrounds. I keep it/them around for nostalgia purposes. The PB-16 ultra DOES certainly make its presence known. Regarding numbers. All other things being equal (like can’t hear any difference) they simplified my choice. I was schooled that the best sound came from separates. Well I looked for an AVP with equal numbers. Didn’t find it. Still looking though. Can easily sell the Denon and get one when that AVP tests as well as the Denon.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I was schooled that the best sound came from separates.
You mean like in this "Separates vs AVR" thread where about 50% of people think separates sound better than AVR?

 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Hi all. Lovingthehd jokingly asked about the deftech supercube. It was a legacy purchase from 2007 along with the mounted surrounds. I keep it/them around for nostalgia purposes. The PB-16 ultra DOES certainly make its presence known. Regarding numbers. All other things being equal (like can’t hear any difference) they simplified my choice. I was schooled that the best sound came from separates. Well I looked for an AVP with equal numbers. Didn’t find it. Still looking though. Can easily sell the Denon and get one when that AVP tests as well as the Denon.
I got cured of the separates thing many years ago in 2ch analog times.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The numbers don't tell you if one component sounds better than another component, or if one component is more reliable or more functional or produces less heat.
I can agree to that, but I am sure you know what distortions mean. So at least one wise person (I assume) who knows about amps had said the following, in his conclusion of an article on distortions (IMD in this case):

Intermodulation Distortion (sound-au.com)

"IMD is far more difficult to measure and quantify accurately than 'simple' THD, but you can generally rest assured that if the THD level is sufficiently low, IMD is unlikely to be a serious issue. Despite all the claims that harmonic distortion measurements are 'pointless', they are nothing of the sort. Low THD means high linearity through the circuit, and if a circuit is sufficiently linear it's unlikely to generate serious IMD. There are factors that can change this, as linearity can deteriorate at higher frequencies (which may not be measured for THD). In general, if you get a good THD figure at 1kHz and low IMD with an SMPTE and/or ITU-R test, then it's time to listen critically to ensure that the measurements and what you hear are in agreement. Few amplifiers will disappoint if they provide good test results".

The difference between -120 dB, or 0.0001%, and -100 dB, or 0.001% is that -120 dB THD+N means even if your room's noise floor is 0 dB, that is inaudible, you can then say with confidence that THD+N at the -120 dB is absolutely inaudible because no one would listen to music at 120 dB peak or higher.

If THD+N is -80 dB/0.01%, someone (I would guess @Matthew J Poes and @RichB might:D) can argue that their room is quiet, with near 0 dB noise floor, so they could hear the effects of distortions because music don't always mask, or at least not completely mask distortions even if such distortions fall into/below the noise floor, especially if the contents are predominately odd and of the higher order types. I am not one who believe that, as I stated multiple times, but again, there are people who don't want to rely on other conditions so they want the lowest possible distortions numbers in order to feel good about it.

Again, back in the days when 5 different magazines show the same NUMBERS, we don't just focus on the numbers because we listen to the components and speakers and overall system, not the numbers.
I get your point, but I don't think people like me or Golfx who want the best possible numbers on products within their bugets would focus on the numbers only. For me anyway, as long as the numbers clear what I consider the point of diminishing return, features, user interface, perceived reliability track record, the look, even customer support track record, will all need to be considered.

Case in point is when audiophiles buy a $5500 AVR just because of the numbers on ASR or on any other sites.
I am not sure if we have such a case to discuss at the moment, but you are referring to Golfx, I would wait and see his response, as he may..:)

Maybe this happened "back in the days", but I can't recall a time when people said they bought a $5500 AVR, instead of a Pre-pro, purely based on some noise and THD numbers.
Again, I am not sure if some one has actually said that, but you may be right, or may be not. Case in point, @DJ7675 got his X8500H brand new for less than $3,000 iirc. The AV7706 is currently going for $2,499 so if I am in the market for one right now I would pay a little more for the AVR.:D In this example, it is not just the big difference in the SINAD numbers. We all have different focus, priority and think differently, it is no wonder why so many people prefer prepro+amp while many others prefer AVR+ex amps or AVR+ex amp+int amps.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
@DJ7675 got his X8500H brand new for less than $3,000 iirc. The AV7706 is currently going for $2,499 so if I am in the market for one right now I would pay a little more for the AVR.:D
I can see your point because the Marantz AV7700 series didn't measure as well as the AV8800 series. So if I were buying a DM Pre-pro, it would be the AV8800 series, not AV7700 series.

So what if it were the $4500 Marantz AV8805 vs $5500 Denon a110? :D

BTW, in general, I would also buy the components with excellent THD+N, but it doesn't have to be "rank #1". :D
 
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