Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[Trell]

Yes, everyone's system and room is different I think they should have called it something other than "Room Correction" Maybe some of us here think arghhh! My room is fine! it doesn't need correcting! Or, my speakers are great and they don't need correcting either!

It's just like with bass management where people are told to set their speakers to small

 

[Phase 2]

Yes, everyone's system and room is different I think they should have called it something other than "Room Correction" Maybe some of us here think arghhh! My room is fine! it doesn't need correcting! Or, my speakers are great and they don't need correcting either! Now I know there plenty of folks here who have invested a ton more on speakers than I have, but I just use YPAO as an added tool to adjust the sound. In the end, it's up to the person listening to the system.

When I listen to, say some 80's R&B like Chaka Khan - "Sweet thing" "Hollywood" or "Please Pardon Me" from my network, those CD quality streams aren't the cleanest, so the Natural mode helps. But when I listen to mostly anything from Steely Dan for instance, those recordings are super clean so Through is fine. Then, when I want to hear some Jimi, I always engage the "Extra Bass" feature, because there was never much bass in Hendrix's music . I'm always changing things up. I call it - interactive listening. LOL.

I'm going try using PEQ with the Through mode, though. Thanks!

Hey, how are you liking you speaker? Are those the ones you had from your other setup?

 

[little wing]

It's just like with bass management where people are told to set their speakers to small

Exactly! We have set your puny speakers to small and you'll like it!!

 

[Phase 2]

Hey, anyone has a Pioneer Elite AVR? With the direct energy? If so,
What are your thoughts on how it performs? Tonal quality, umm how does it stack up to a AVR with a A/B amp, like is it punchy? or lack of?

 

[little wing]

Hey, how are you liking you speaker? Are those the ones you had from your other setup?

Yes - have the Ascend acoustics towers with Raal tweeters and the matching horizon center. I think they are really good sounding speakers. Clear and balanced from top to bottom. No particular frequency stands out. With two six inch woofers in each tower, the bass isn't going to rattle windows, but I set them to small and hand off 90hz and below to the Ryrhmik sub. Sometimes I feel like they lack punch and wish they had a tighter image. Not with everything, but with some stuff I listen to. Also, I don't know why this is, but I think they are better with music then they are with movies. All in all a fine speaker. I often wonder how much more I would need to spend to get better sound.

 

[PENG]

Exactly! We have set your puny speakers to small and you'll like it!!

That's great, it is worst when you have no choice but to set your huge towers to small or live with negative interference between them and the subwoofers. That is, unless you have RC system that works well integrated them nicely together.

 

[little wing]

That's great, it is worst when you have no choice but to set your huge towers to small or live with negative interference between them and the subwoofers. That is, unless you have RC system that works well integrated them nicely together.

Yes, that is KEY. To have the speakers and the sub blend well enough for a seemless transition.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I played around with the Yamaha EQ settings. There are 3 choices.

1. Through - Bypass mode - no EQ, does not allow you to adjust anything.

2. Auto EQ - 3 options - Flat, Front, or Natural- does not allow you to adjust anything except for the 3 choices of Flat, Front, or Natural.

3. Manual - Parametric EQ - by default it is set to no EQ - frequency response is flat. This allows you to manually adjust all the speakers and subwoofers.

Yamaha PEQ
Number of Bands: 7
Default Bands:
#1: 62.50 Hz
#2: 125.0 Hz
#3: 396.9 Hz
#4: 1.00 kHz
#5: 2.52 kHz
#6: 6.35 kHz
#7: 16.0 kHz

Frequencies: 15.6 Hz, 19.7, 24.8, 31.3, 39.4, 49.6, 62.5, 78.7, 99.2, 125 Hz, 157.5 Hz, 198.4 Hz, 250 Hz, 315.0 Hz, 396.9 Hz, 500.0 Hz, 630.0 Hz, 793.7 Hz, 1.0 kHz, 1.26 kHz, 1.59 kHz, 2.0 kHz, 2.52 kHz, 3.17 kHz, 4.0 kHz, 5.04 kHz, 6.35 kHz, 8.0 kHz, 10.1 kHz, 12.7 kHz, 16.0 kHz

Q: 0.5, 0.63, 0.794, 1.0, 1.26, 1.587, 2.0, 2.52, 3.175, 4.0, 5.04, 6.35, 8.0, 10.08

Gain (0.5 dB increments) : -20.0 to +6.0 dB

PEQ Data Copy: Copies the Parametric EQ values acquired with "AUTO SETUP" to the "MANUAL" fields for fine adjustment

3 Auto Setup EQ options: Flat, Front, Natural

PEQ Data Clear: Restore default settings for all speakers - all speakers set to no EQ.

Take Home message:
You can apply the YPAO auto EQ if you want. Then, use “PEQ Data Copy” to copy the Auto EQ to manual PEQ. For example, Gene copied the NATURAL YPAO to the Manual PEQ. Then adjusted the manual EQ to fine-tune.

If you don’t want to mess with frequencies above 125Hz, then set the Gain for Frequencies above 125Hz to 0.0dB (flat, no EQ).

As for me, I left all the speakers manual PEQ to default 0.0dB (flat, no EQ) and adjusted only the 2 subwoofers PEQ from 24.8Hz-99.2Hz.

 

[Ken32]

Ok, so since this is a receiver thread, I'm curious.... I'm looking at specs between Yamaha 2070 (on my list) and the V2085. What in the world is the difference other than the 5th leg on the 2070? Everything looks the exact same.. am I wrong? Is it intended for up marketing? The A2070 is 799 at A4L and the v2085 is 829. is it worth the 30? I thought Aventage was their Top Dog units?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ok, so since this is a receiver thread, I'm curious.... I'm looking at specs between Yamaha 2070 (on my list) and the V2085. What in the world is the difference other than the 5th leg on the 2070? Everything looks the exact same.. am I wrong? Is it intended for up marketing? The A2070 is 799 at A4L and the v2085 is 829. is it worth the 30? I thought Aventage was their Top Dog units?

The Aventage line is Yamaha’s “Elite” line. That’s why their separates are also Aventage “A” - the CX-A5200 and MX-A5200.

Better quality parts, better reliability, and 1 year longer warranty (3YR vs 2YR).

https://www.listeningpost.co.nz/Difference-Between-Aventage-RX-V-Series-Yamaha-__I.169081__N.81089

Personally, I would get the A2070 since it is "supposed" to be even higher quality, even more reliable, and $30 less expensive. It's a win-win.

So personally for me, the V2085 is definitely NOT worth the $30 EXTRA price tag over the A2070!

 

[PENG]

Ok, so since this is a receiver thread, I'm curious.... I'm looking at specs between Yamaha 2070 (on my list) and the V2085. What in the world is the difference other than the 5th leg on the 2070? Everything looks the exact same.. am I wrong? Is it intended for up marketing? The A2070 is 799 at A4L and the v2085 is 829. is it worth the 30? I thought Aventage was their Top Dog units?

I can tell you the general statement in the article ADTG linked about "Throughout the Aventage series, more expensive, lower tolerance components are used throughout the construction." seems a little misleading.

Using the A2060/V2081 as an example, the two shares the same service manual. I compared their parts list and schematics, they are identical electrically speaking.

The list price for the RX-A should be higher than the corresponding RX-V models, but as AC4L stated on their website: "RX-V2085 9.2-Ch x 140 Watts A/V Receiver SAME AS RX-A2080". That, again, could be a little misleading too because while the two likely share the same electrical components, parts and circuitry, there are at least physical and mechanical differences, aside from the looks. So for $30 more you get a 2018 model vs the 2070 that is a 2017 model, but you give up the "Elite line" status if that matters to you.

Yamaha's RX-V model numbers are quite confusing, for example, their RX-V2095 is a 20 years old model lol..

 

[snakeeyes]

The 2017 2070 is very similar to the 2018 2085 , but different years make the small difference.

I have a 2016 RXA2060 and a 2017 RXA770.

The 2018 models however, have a redesigned remote and you need a smartphone to do the Yamaha apps like Pandora. Prior you did not need a smartphone or tablet for built in. I think that means no cover art via the TV display as well. It does show on the phone though.

Personally I bypass that anyhow and run streaming for Amazon and Pandora on iPhone via Airplay to my Apple TV 4K so no big deal. This gets a little higher bitrate than native Yamaha apps which are limited to 128Kbps. (Unless you use Musiccast method to stream that to Yamaha from a computer etc).

I believe you only get the new feature updates for the first 3 years and only bug fixes after that. This year my 2017 gets a feature update but my 2016 only gets a bug fix update. I assume this year is the last few feature updates for my 2017.

Good luck!

 

[Ken32]

Okay, So If i decide to grab it and add an external amp for extra power to drive my front 3 mains... Will the quality of the material played be coming from the Yamaha? or the external amp?

I guess what I'm saying is, if sound quality comes from the external source rather than the AVR, I'd be better off buying a cheaper Unit such as the Denon, using the money i saved to put towards a nice Amp.

Correct me if i'm wrong

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Will the quality of the material played be coming from the Yamaha? or the external amp?

The quality of the Yamaha AVR and the quality of the external amp will both affect the overall sound quality of the material played (music).

Everything in the "chain" has to be good quality - original material, AVR, amp, speakers.

 

[Ken32]

The quality of the Yamaha AVR and the quality of the external amp will both affect the overall sound quality of the material played (music).

Everything in the "chain" has to be good quality - original material, AVR, amp, speakers.

Alight, now that I'm aware of all that, the a2070 has 140wpc driven in 2ch. What benefit would an amp be, if any... at say 150wpc x2. Would that help SQ at all? Or would it be best at that point to just use the AVR? There are times I love to blast movies and music but not all the time.

I have seen amps at 250-300wpc which would be around the recommended for my towers. To me that would see like the logical thing to do verse a 150wpc amp. Again, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

1. the a2070 has 140wpc driven in 2ch. What benefit would an amp be, if any... at say 150wpc x2. Would that help SQ at all? Or would it be best at that point to just use the AVR? There are times I love to blast movies and music but not all the time.

2. I have seen amps at 250-300wpc which would be around the “recommended for my towers”. To me that would see like the logical thing to do verse a 150wpc amp.

1. I see no real benefit. The SQ would not improve. I would estimate that most people who own AVRs sit no farther than 15 FT away from their speakers and they don’t really need external amps.

2. Speaker power ratings have a range like 30W-300W. So technically, a 50WPC AVR could power those speakers as long as you are not playing deafening volume. In this case, 300w would be the max limit, which means you don’t want to send 300W to your speakers for very long or your speakers will fry.

3. In the very rare case that your speakers actually require 300W and assuming the speakers don’t fry at 300W, then of course, a 300WPC amp is better.

So use those power calculators that factor in total volume (SPL),speaker sensitivity (like 90dB/2.83V/m),listening distance (meters, feet),number of speakers, distance of speakers from walls/corners.

You will quickly realize that your speakers probably don’t require that much power when you are listening to safe volume that will NOT cause PERMANENT HEARING LOSS.

So why do many of us own external amps?

Well, duh! It’s because we’re Audioholics and we own amps whether we need them or not.

No, seriously, actually my system does require external amps for all 9 passive speakers and all 10 passive subwoofers.

 

[Ken32]

1. I see no real benefit. The SQ would not improve. I would estimate that most people who own AVRs sit no farther than 15 FT away from their speakers and they don’t really need external amps.

Well, duh! It’s because we’re Audioholics and we own amps whether we need them or not.

No, seriously, actually my system does require external amps for all 9 passive speakers and all 10 passive subwoofers.

Good to know. One of my main concerns for an amp was to take a load of the Yamaha if i decide to go that route. I've read on several occasions how they drop a largely in the wattage department during multi-channel use. I'm not worried about my surrounds as much. Seems like it would taxing on my mains during action scenes (explosions, crashes, etc...)

It just seems odd to go from 140wpc during stereo use to 40 with multi-channel driven. Why do they feel the need to put a tax on power that could potentially be put to use? Take Onkyo for example, they may have issues with HDMI boards, aside from that, their amps have been proven during bench tests to not drop nearly as much.

Does Yamaha do it to protect their name? keep heat down? Keep reliability? As large as they are (2070,3070 etc) You'd think they'd allow more power with all channels driven.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Good to know. One of my main concerns for an amp was to take a load of the Yamaha if i decide to go that route. I've read on several occasions how they drop a largely in the wattage department during multi-channel use. I'm not worried about my surrounds as much. Seems like it would taxing on my mains during action scenes (explosions, crashes, etc...)

It just seems odd to go from 140wpc during stereo use to 40 with multi-channel driven. Why do they feel the need to put a tax on power that could potentially be put to use? Take Onkyo for example, they may have issues with HDMI boards, aside from that, their amps have been proven during bench tests to not drop nearly as much.

Does Yamaha do it to protect their name? keep heat down? Keep reliability? As large as they are (2070,3070 etc) You'd think they'd allow more power with all channels driven.

Yamaha is well known for being very stringent on the PROTECTION circuit.

That's why the power output went down with ALL CHANNEL DRIVEN.

That's what it comes down to - how conservative or strict do you want to be?

It could be for better reliability. Yamaha is supposed to be #1 in reliability, which could be due to many reasons and one reason could be this strict protection circuit.

Yamaha AVR, Pre-pro, and consumer amps also seem to operate significantly cooler than DM and Onkyo, which could also be related to this strict protection circuit and current-limiting control.

Maybe Yamaha doesn't trust consumers with amp power. They don't enforce the same stringent protection circuits in their Professional amps, just on their consumer amps/AVR.

2 things.

1. The AVR will provide enough power for all your speakers as it is designed for. Otherwise, they would NOT build a 9CH AVR.

2. Don't worry about the ALL-Channel Driven test. In the real word (outside the test lab) your AVR will only have to deal with 2Ch or 3Ch at a time, not more than 5Ch at a time.

 

[PENG]

Okay, So If i decide to grab it and add an external amp for extra power to drive my front 3 mains... Will the quality of the material played be coming from the Yamaha? or the external amp?

I guess what I'm saying is, if sound quality comes from the external source rather than the AVR, I'd be better off buying a cheaper Unit such as the Denon, using the money i saved to put towards a nice Amp.

Correct me if i'm wrong

This kind of questions have been answered many times by many people on this forum. Garbage in garbage out, so first and foremost one should focus on the recording/mastering quality of the music media you play. Further, even if the recording quality is great, if you use amplified rock and other pop music genre, then it doesn't matter much if you use a $100,000 each (or $1,000 each) DAC, preamp/power amp, because there will be more than one bottleneck upstream from your high end electronics. So yes, you are better off getting a decent (I wouldn't call it cheap..) AVR and spend the money on the music media, power amp (only if you need the extra power) and speakers. Those Denon, Marantz, Yamaha sound signature talks are just internet hearsay originated by manufacturers marketing people and brand loyal fans. Any difference between D&M, Yamaha, Onkyo are too insignificant for normal people to tell a difference because such minute difference will most likely be masked by bottlenecks up and down stream of the AVR/AVP/Amps. I don't intend to ignite the favorite topic on whether all amps/avrs etc., sound the same under any conditions, I am just saying unless you don't have weaker links up and down stream of them, you will be wasting your time trying to figure it out, instead of focus on enjoying the music. Many people hear differences that they were told and explained to prior, I used to be one of those people, but I understand most of us have to go through the same, there isn't much we, the been there done that group (ask @AcuDefTechGuy, @lovinthehd just to name a couple..) could do to help other avoid it, but we might have tried.., I should also mention that some do get stuck there forever too for whatever reason.

 

[PENG]

2. Don't worry about the ALL-Channel Driven test. In the real word (outside the test lab) your AVR will only have to deal with 2Ch or 3Ch at a time, not more than 5Ch at a time.

Is there a way to address this concern that many audioholics seem to have, without us having to repeat it like every other week?