Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[Danzilla31]

You apply the YPAO, which will balance and set all the speakers levels. Then you can Bypass (mode = Through) the YPAO, which will still retain all the speaker levels and distances.

Of course, you can always manually adjust all the speakers and subs channel levels and distance.

You can read Gene’s review on his CX-A5100. He applied YPAO, then use the Parametric EQ (PEQ) to fine tune the EQ.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/yamaha-aventage-cx-a5100-preamp-processor-preview

Honestly ADTG I hope you don't mind the abbreviation LOL I don't want to use YPAO at all. I've gone back to the old fashioned manual measure spl meter and some of the other old school ways to tune my system in.

From what your saying I can do that righ? I don't eben have to use YPAO the Yamaha still has the manual way to do it If I'm hearing you correctly.

Im not bashing them but my personal experiences with room eq has caused me to just not want to use any of them at all. I can only speak for myself and have no arguments against people that like to use them. That's just been my experience

 

[Phase 2]

Honestly ADTG I hope you don't mind the abbreviation LOL I don't want to use YPAO at all. I've gone back to the old fashioned manual measure spl meter and some of the other old school ways to tune my system in.

From what your saying I can do that righ? I don't eben have to use YPAO the Yamaha still has the manual way to do it If I'm hearing you correctly.

Im not bashing them but my personal experiences with room eq has caused me to just not want to use any of them at all. I can only speak for myself and have no arguments against people that like to use them. That's just been my experience

SPL meter wins out, with a tape measurer! RC does however set time delay.

 

[PENG]

SPL meter wins out, with a tape measurer! RC does however set time delay.

SPL meter such as the $50 Radio Shack one + measure tape may win in your room but not for me. I had done it the manually way spending hours and hours like a mad man and as soon as XT32 came I never look back. Like they say, ymmv, how true!

 

[PENG]

Honestly ADTG I hope you don't mind the abbreviation LOL I don't want to use YPAO at all. I've gone back to the old fashioned manual measure spl meter and some of the other old school ways to tune my system in.

From what your saying I can do that righ? I don't eben have to use YPAO the Yamaha still has the manual way to do it If I'm hearing you correctly.

Im not bashing them but my personal experiences with room eq has caused me to just not want to use any of them at all. I can only speak for myself and have no arguments against people that like to use them. That's just been my experience

I think next time you may want to give Marantz/Denon a chance. Using the Editor App, you can limit RC to say 200 Hz and you will have smoother bass response, without RC (any of them) messing with the mid and high range. RC does work in the bass region, I am sure YPAO does too, some just do it a little better than others whether the various results are audible, or which can make it sound better is an unknown.

 

[Phase 2]

SPL meter such as the $50 Radio Shack one + measure tape may win in your room but not for me. I had done it the manually way spending hours and hours like a mad man and as soon as XT32 came I never look back. Like they say, ymmv, how true!

The only AVR I had, that had audyssey room correction was my Onkyo NR818, for some reason every time I ran it, it gave me different settings, but the one thing it did very well it dialed in my two subs perfectly, but than I didn't have XT32 so, yeah PENG, I can not say XT32 wouldn't have been better.

 

[PENG]

That's just some hearsay, can't be stated as facts. Why would it sound superior? I heard their high end separates, sounded great but so are the "others", but that's my subjective experience, not necessarily fact either.

To be fair, I should have elaborated, and congratulated @hifihillbilly for becoming a proud owner of a very nice AVR first and I hope it is not too late to say this now.

Subjective reviews are subjective, and that's the hearsay I referred to, whereas bench test results and specs are more objective, and if published/measured/tested in honorable ways then they may be more credible.

I fully understand why if one do a search, one would likely find more rave reviews about the more expensive (boutique brand??) AVRs such as Anthem's, NADs, and of course prepros. IMO, that is mostly because subjective reviews are naturally more affected by the list price, i.e. if it costs so much more it must be better otherwise why would anyone make/ buy it etc.etc.? As for users, people who own Anthem MRX, after paying more for less (I mean feature set, bells and whistles),would naturally treasure them more than those who spend $899 or less on an AVR-X4400H or Marantz SR7012 do, hence the nature of those subjective reviews/owners reports etc. that gradually became hearsay kind of "facts"),and I'll just leave it there and move on to specs and bench tests.

Regarding RC/REQ, I have read about how Anthem ARC, Dirac Live could do better than Audyssey and YPAO too, but in my experience, I could dial in my left, right with two subs integrated to within +/- 3 dB easily between 16-120 Hz using XT32. If I work hard with the App, and are willing to spend time fine tuning using the sub's phase and PEQ, I may get it within +/- 1.5 dB, would it make a difference audibly, I would guess not. I also doubt AARC or Dirac Live could make an audible difference, with their reportedly "superior" RCs.

Below is one of my old Audyssey On vs Off graph from 2017, plotted in my HT room, for the front speakers and two different subs, 1/48 smoothing. I was using the Marantz AV8801 at the time. Now, with the X4400H and the Editor App, I could tighten the window by at least another dB easily. If anyone manage to achieve a tighter response for the same range using Dirac or Anthem ARC, please share, it will be much appreciated.

Now if look at the following bench tests, first THD+N vs output power:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/anthem-mrx-1120-av-receiver-review-test-bench
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr7011-av-receiver-review-test-bench
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-bench

That graphs are both THD+N vs output, now take a look at the comparisons in terms of noise and cross talk:

Anthem MRX-1120 ($3,499)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –77.12 dB left to right and –77.07 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –109.43 dBrA.

Marantz SR7011 ($2,199)

Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –71.72 dB left to right and –71.55 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –107.82 dBrA.

Denon AVR-X3400H ($999)

Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –82.08 dB left to right and –80.79 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –109.98 dBrA.

S&V seems to have stopped bench testing, and I could not find any apples to apples bench test for the equivalent AVR-X6400H so the X3400H will have to do it, albeit at disadvantage in the output power department obviously.

Note that Anthem MRX720 and 1120 (11 amp channels) are rated 140 for 5 channels only, the remaining channels are rated 60 WPC, I don't want to provoke guys like @TLS Guy who seem to think that we should not short change the surround channel so he if he sees this he may have some to say..

 

[Phase 2]

The only AVR I had, that had audyssey room correction was my Onkyo NR818, for some reason every time I ran it, it gave me different settings, but the one thing it did very well it dialed in my two subs perfectly, but than I didn't have XT32 so, yeah PENG, I can not say XT32 wouldn't have been better.

Correction I slept since then it did have XT32. Maybe I didn't use it correctly?

 

[PENG]

Forgot to include Yamaha, here it is:

RX-A3060 ($2,200):
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-aventage-rx-a3060-av-receiver-review-test-bench

@AcuDefTechGuy , if the S&V review results for all 4 brands have been post before, please let me know. I can still delete them.

Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –79.34 dB left to right and –79.41 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –106.84 dBrA.

 

[PENG]

Correction I slept since then it did have XT32. Maybe I didn't use it correctly?

I think it has XT32, just no Sub EQ HT. Even if you moved the mic a few inches or change and angle, you would get different results and that would have been normal. The mic is supposedly more sensitive/accurate than a cheap spl meter, and as you know, Audyssey also take time delay into consideration. If you were getting different distances for more than a few inches each time you ran it, then something was wrong for sure. I think you are not the only one who experienced that either as I remember reading similar reports by other users, though I think it is rare. I have no idea what could have caused such seemingly anomalies for some people

 

[Phase 2]

I think it has XT32, just no Sub EQ HT. Even if you moved the mic a few inches or change and angle, you would get different results and that would have been normal. The mic is supposedly more sensitive/accurate than a cheap spl meter, and as you know, Audyssey also take time delay into consideration. If you were getting different distances for more than a few inches each time you ran it, then something was wrong for sure. I think you are not the only one who experienced that either as I remember reading similar reports by other users, though I think it is rare. I have no idea what could have caused such seemingly anomalies for some people

You know now that you mention if the mic is even off just a little bit you can get different settings. I do remember my Son, with his SLP meter came over with his tripod also we reran it several times. Came out with much better results. We even turned off the AC unit and the refrigerator. So I wasn't placing the Mic, at the same 8 positions each time. Plus he and I would completely get out of the way off to the side. We also moved the coffee table out of the room and removed all the dam throw pillows from the sofa. Wife had these umm like 8 lil throw pillows to put on the sofa. Told her they got to go!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Honestly ADTG I hope you don't mind the abbreviation LOL I don't want to use YPAO at all. I've gone back to the old fashioned manual measure spl meter and some of the other old school ways to tune my system in.

From what your saying I can do that righ? I don't eben have to use YPAO the Yamaha still has the manual way to do it If I'm hearing you correctly.

Im not bashing them but my personal experiences with room eq has caused me to just not want to use any of them at all. I can only speak for myself and have no arguments against people that like to use them. That's just been my experience

I don’t use YPAO or any kind of Auto Room EQ either.

Yes you can absolutely do everything MANUALLY with the CX-A5100/5200.

And for us manual-setup guys, the CX-A5100/5200 has a great Parametric EQ, which I use only for the bass 20-100Hz.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

To be fair, I should have elaborated, and congratulated @hifihillbilly for becoming a proud owner of a very nice AVR first and I hope it is not too late to say this now.

Subjective reviews are subjective, and that's the hearsay I referred to, whereas bench test results and specs are more objective, and if published/measured/tested in honorable ways then they may be more credible.

I fully understand why if one do a search, one would likely find more rave reviews about the more expensive (boutique brand??) AVRs such as Anthem's, NADs, and of course prepros. IMO, that is mostly because subjective reviews are naturally more affected by the list price, i.e. if it costs so much more it must be better otherwise why would anyone make/ buy it etc.etc.? As for users, people who own Anthem MRX, after paying more for less (I mean feature set, bells and whistles),would naturally treasure them more than those who spend $899 or less on an AVR-X4400H or Marantz SR7012 do, hence the nature of those subjective reviews/owners reports etc. that gradually became hearsay kind of "facts"),and I'll just leave it there and move on to specs and bench tests.

Regarding RC/REQ, I have read about how Anthem ARC, Dirac Live could do better than Audyssey and YPAO too, but in my experience, I could dial in my left, right with two subs integrated to within +/- 3 dB easily between 16-120 Hz using XT32. If I work hard with the App, and are willing to spend time fine tuning using the sub's phase and PEQ, I may get it within +/- 1.5 dB, would it make a difference audibly, I would guess not. I also doubt AARC or Dirac Live could make an audible difference, with their reportedly "superior" RCs.

Below is one of my old Audyssey On vs Off graph from 2017, plotted in my HT room, for the front speakers and two different subs, 1/48 smoothing. I was using the Marantz AV8801 at the time. Now, with the X4400H and the Editor App, I could tighten the window by at least another dB easily. If anyone manage to achieve a tighter response for the same range using Dirac or Anthem ARC, please share, it will be much appreciated.


View attachment 29627

Now if look at the following bench tests, first THD+N vs output power:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/anthem-mrx-1120-av-receiver-review-test-bench
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr7011-av-receiver-review-test-bench
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-bench

View attachment 29628

View attachment 29629

View attachment 29630

That graphs are both THD+N vs output, now take a look at the comparisons in terms of noise and cross talk:

Anthem MRX-1120 ($3,499)
Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –77.12 dB left to right and –77.07 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –109.43 dBrA.

Marantz SR7011 ($2,199)

Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –71.72 dB left to right and –71.55 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –107.82 dBrA.

Denon AVR-X3400H ($999)

Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –82.08 dB left to right and –80.79 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –109.98 dBrA.

S&V seems to have stopped bench testing, and I could not find any apples to apples bench test for the equivalent AVR-X6400H so the X3400H will have to do it, albeit at disadvantage in the output power department obviously.

Note that Anthem MRX720 and 1120 (11 amp channels) are rated 140 for 5 channels only, the remaining channels are rated 60 WPC, I don't want to provoke guys like @TLS Guy who seem to think that we should not short change the surround channel so he if he sees this he may have some to say..

I think you and I (and some others) have compared many AVR measurements on AH.

Time and time again, it seems to come down to Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha for power (except for A800 series and under ), XTalk, SNR, THD, SNR. These are all objective facts.

But probably the biggest “intangible” factor is the auto room correction. Is it subjective?

Gene is convinced that YPAO + PEQ produces great results.

You have shown that XT32 produces great results.

Is there proof that Anthem RC produces a flatter room response than XT32, YPAO + PEQ, Dirac, etc. ?

And even if any of these Auto Room Correction produces a flatter in room response, the actual perception of the results is purely subjective.

But just looking at the typical objective measurements of Power, SNR, XTalk, THD, FR, it seems that Denon/Marantz and Yamaha usually come up on top.

 

[PENG]

I think you and I (and some others) have compared many AVR measurements on AH.

Time and time again, it seems to come down to Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha for power (except for A800 series and under ), XTalk, SNR, THD, SNR. These are all objective facts.

But probably the biggest “intangible” factor is the auto room correction. Is it subjective?

Gene is convinced that YPAO + PEQ produces great results.

You have shown that XT32 produces great results.

Is there proof that Anthem RC produces a flatter room response than XT32, YPAO + PEQ, Dirac, etc. ?

And even if any of these Auto Room Correction produces a flatter in room response, the actual perception of the results is purely subjective.

But just looking at the typical objective measurements of Power, SNR, XTalk, THD, FR, it seems that Denon/Marantz and Yamaha usually come up on top.

Agreed it is more subjective overall. I would say the decision to turn it on or not is simple. Just try both and let the ears/brain call the shot.

 

[Danzilla31]

I don’t use YPAO or any kind of Auto Room EQ either.

Yes you can absolutely do everything MANUALLY with the CX-A5100/5200.

And for us manual-setup guys, the CX-A5100/5200 has a great Parametric EQ, which I use only for the bass 20-100Hz.

Thanks for the heads up!

 

[little wing]

Good discussion here. I have wrestled with buying a mic and downloading Room Eq and trying to do it myself, but I guess I'm just not inclined to do it right now. I know there is a big learning curve with taking measurements and fine tuning the manual EQ. I have since taken ADTG's approach that no EQ is needed most of the time. So I run my 3060 in the "Through" mode for most of what I listen to, and it sounds good. There ARE some recordings that do seem to benefit from the "Natural" (YPAO) setting though. It's generally recordings that are not very clean sounding, as the "Natural" (YPAO) setting has a bit more of a lively sound to me, at least with my Ascend Acoustic Towers. I also use the Natural setting for viewing movies and such. I think the Ascends are a bit better with music than they are with movies however. Since I haven't taken any measurements in my room I don't know what's going on with the bass response in my 12 1/2' by 17 ' listening space.........ignorance is bliss I guess...

 

[snakeeyes]

Good discussion here. I have wrestled with buying a mic and downloading Room Eq and trying to do it myself, but I guess I'm just not inclined to do it right now. I know there is a big learning curve with taking measurements and fine tuning the manual EQ. I have since taken ADTG's approach that no EQ is needed most of the time. So I run my 3060 in the "Through" mode for most of what I listen to, and it sounds good. There ARE some recordings that do seem to benefit from the "Natural" (YPAO) setting though. It's generally recordings that are not very clean sounding, as the "Natural" (YPAO) setting has a bit more of a lively sound to me, at least with my Ascend Acoustic Towers. I also use the Natural setting for viewing movies and such. I think the Ascends are a bit better with music than they are with movies however. Since I haven't taken any measurements in my room I don't know what's going on with the bass response in my 12 1/2' by 17 ' listening space.........ignorance is bliss I guess...

I tried the settings but I like the Natural setting. I thought it sounded more like my old 2003 RXV3300 AVR on my 2016 RXA2060. And I do sometimes miss the old orange front display.

I may try a custom one at some point though.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

the "Natural" (YPAO) setting has a bit more of a lively sound to me...

More bass or more treble or both?

Have you ever tried using THROUGH + the Parametric EQ (PEQ)?

If you just want more bass, you can just use the Subwoofer PEQ to boost the bass (~ 40, 60, 80, 100 Hz) by +1dB, +2dB, etc. and leave all the other speakers in THROUGH mode.

In my system, I leave all speakers in THROUGH mode and just use the 2 Subwoofers PEQ to boost the bass.

I believe Gene uses the NATURAL mode, then uses PEQ, but I haven’t studied his approach.

Everyone and every system is different. It’s great that you are able to find the right SETUPS.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I tried the settings but I like the Natural setting. I thought it sounded more like my old 2003 RXV3300 AVR on my 2016 RXA2060. And I do sometimes miss the old orange front display.

I may try a custom one at some point though.

It’s definitely all about our preferences and what we are accustomed to all these years.

I owned Denon’s for a long time and used Bypass + DEQ. Thus, I am accustomed to hearing that Bypass Sound + bass boost.

So that’s the reason I prefer Through Mode + PEQ for bass boost.

I bet Anthem’s RC does about the same thing - leave the 100Hz-20kHz in Bypass mode and just EQ the 20-100Hz bass.

I bet XT32 + App could also leave the 100Hz-20kHz in Bypass and just EQ the 20-100Hz also.

Maybe Dirac and Trinnov also have the same goal?

 

[little wing]

I tried the settings but I like the Natural setting. I thought it sounded more like my old 2003 RXV3300 AVR on my 2016 RXA2060. And I do sometimes miss the old orange front display.

I may try a custom one at some point though.

Hey snakeeyes! I hear you. when I replaced my RX V2500 with the 3060 I thought I would miss the amber display as well. But a couple of weeks into ownership I never looked back Especially since the 3060 sounded better and does so much more than the 2500. The display color also matches the Oppo 105.

I moved that old receiver to the bedroom and it sill works just fine! Built like a tank, that 2500!

 

[little wing]

More bass or more treble or both?

That's a good question. I'm pretty sure it is more treble and not more bass.

Have you ever tried using THROUGH + the Parametric EQ (PEQ)?

Another excellent question. The answer is no. But I may try this today. So you can use the through mode and still adjust certain frequencies of the PEQ? I'm going to try this.

If you just want more bass, you can just use the Subwoofer PEQ to boost the bass (~ 40, 60, 80, 100 Hz) by +1dB, +2dB, etc. and leave all the other speakers in THROUGH mode.

In my system, I leave all speakers in THROUGH mode and just use the 2 Subwoofers PEQ to boost the bass.

I believe Gene uses the NATURAL mode, then uses PEQ, but I haven’t studied his approach.

Everyone and every system is different. It’s great that you are able to find the right SETUPS.

Yes, everyone's system and room is different I think they should have called it something other than "Room Correction" Maybe some of us here think arghhh! My room is fine! it doesn't need correcting! Or, my speakers are great and they don't need correcting either! Now I know there plenty of folks here who have invested a ton more on speakers than I have, but I just use YPAO as an added tool to adjust the sound. In the end, it's up to the person listening to the system.

When I listen to, say some 80's R&B like Chaka Khan - "Sweet thing" "Hollywood" or "Please Pardon Me" from my network, those CD quality streams aren't the cleanest, so the Natural mode helps. But when I listen to mostly anything from Steely Dan for instance, those recordings are super clean so Through is fine. Then, when I want to hear some Jimi, I always engage the "Extra Bass" feature, because there was never much bass in Hendrix's music . I'm always changing things up. I call it - interactive listening. LOL.

I'm going try using PEQ with the Through mode, though. Thanks!