Denon AVR-X3600H vs AVR-X4700H Measurement Report

[PENG]

I'm looking at the data more than Amir's comments. The data in the original review is still valid and represents a serious issue that will affect many owners. I'm not happy about how Amir disowned his original review but its still there as a testament to a real problem.

It is certainly an issue under some specific conditions and I think Denon recognized that otherwise they would not have committed to investigating. To say that it is a serious issue seems to be just your subjective view, not everyone, not me anyway would consider this a serious issue. In fact, for me and I am sure there are others too, will never have to worry about that issue, because of the way I use my system. But again, not arguing with you, just that I think it is a one of those ymmv..

 

[roadwarrior]

Folks - hopefully simple question for y'all.

Scenario: Using Roku to stream Netflix. Netflix content is 5.1
Set up: Denon AVR under question powering 2.0 speakers
Question: Does the identified 'bug' affect performance in this scenario?

It has not been tested using bitsreamed content so hard to say for sure but if you send a multichannel PCM signal to the receiver running fewer than 7 active speakers in your setup there will be an increase in the noise. Up to 10dB in a 2 channel situation and 2dB in a 5 channel one(SINAD of -95.) Neither of these should be audible by the way but they are definitely measurable and it shouldn't be happening according to Denon.

If the answer to above question is 'yes performance is deteriorated' then how can it be claimed this will never occur in the real world? I am going to buy this receiver for primarily stereo music listening but it will also be used for streaming TV and movies. I would think a lot of folks have this similar set up.

For those using a multi channel AVR capable of up to 11 or 13 channels as strictly a 2 channel rig yes those users will see the highest signal noise. Whether that will also happen with Dolby or DTS content that has a dedicated 2 channel mix in its codec is as of yet untested though. The majority of AVR users have at minimum a 5.1 setup however. I haven't seen anything over the years both here and on AVS Forums to show otherwise. Yes, there are 2 speaker rigs and 3 speaker ones with no side surrounds but they are the minority. That's who the bug most affects though which is why it needs to be fixed. No one is saying it shouldn't be just that some of the hysterics over its effects are a bit overblown.

 

[PENG]

ASR posted Denon's response to that very issue:

“Our engineering team is investigating the audio issue highlighted in the updated Audio Science review of the Denon AVR-4700H. This issue was observed when the receiver is set to a 2.0 speaker configuration and being sent a multichannel PCM signal. We will respond as soon as we identify the root cause. Thank you for your patience.”

Looks like work in progress.

 

[Theoretical Pragmatist]

It has not been tested using bitsreamed content so hard to say for sure but if you send a multichannel PCM signal to the receiver running fewer than 7 active speakers in your setup there will be an increase in the noise. Up to 10dB in a 2 channel situation and 2dB in a 5 channel one(SINAD of -95.) Neither of these should be audible by the way but they are definitely measurable and it shouldn't be happening according to Denon.



For those using a multi channel AVR capable of up to 11 or 13 channels as strictly a 2 channel rig yes those users will see the highest signal noise. Whether that will also happen with Dolby or DTS content that has a dedicated 2 channel mix in its codec is as of yet untested though. The majority of AVR users have at minimum a 5.1 setup however. I haven't seen anything over the years both here and on AVS Forums to show otherwise. Yes, there are 2 speaker rigs and 3 speaker ones with no side surrounds but they are the minority. That's who the bug most affects though which is why it needs to be fixed. No one is saying it shouldn't be just that some of the hysterics over its effects are a bit overblown.

Thanks that differentiation between PCM and bitstream is not something I had caught in these threads and it makes sense. I'm going to cross my fingers and order one anyway - at least my primary use case of stereo music is unaffected. Here's hoping bitstream stereo downmix behaves better than PCM.

 

[shadyJ]

I don't think so much energy is needed to address a small flaw in a Denon product or a weird review from ASR. Sound United are big boys, they are more than capable of defending themselves from one odd review, insofar as they would care to because the traffic and views that review gets is not going to be anywhere near what a review in a major publication like CNET would get.

 

[roadwarrior]

ASR posted Denon's response to that very issue:

“Our engineering team is investigating the audio issue highlighted in the updated Audio Science review of the Denon AVR-4700H. This issue was observed when the receiver is set to a 2.0 speaker configuration and being sent a multichannel PCM signal. We will respond as soon as we identify the root cause. Thank you for your patience.”

Looks like work in progress.

Amir also said that he didn't do anything to affect the test other than use a 2 channel speaker setting with all others set to None and the reason that Denon didn't notice the same issue is they tested using a 7 channel active speaker setup. He says their channel output from their AP analyzer was the same as his was from his sound card. Guess that explains why it got missed by Denon's tests.

 

[roadwarrior]

I don't think so much energy is needed to address a small flaw in a Denon product or a weird review from ASR. Sound United are big boys, they are more than capable of defending themselves from one odd review, insofar as they would care to because the traffic and views that review gets is not going to be anywhere near what a review in a major publication like CNET would get.

Over a million site visits a month so not that insignificant. What's that famous Mark Twain saying? "A lie travels around the twice before the truth has a chance to put its pants on." Not calling that first review a lie but it was full of innacurate test results and conclusions. Bet less than half of those who read that one have seen the newest one.

 

[roadwarrior]

Thanks that differentiation between PCM and bitstream is not something I had caught in these threads and it makes sense. I'm going to cross my fingers and order one anyway - at least my primary use case of stereo music is unaffected. Here's hoping bitstream stereo downmix behaves better than PCM.

Based on both the revised review results and Denon's acknowledgement that they are looking into it I think you'll be just fine and congrats.

 

[gene]

Over a million site visits a month so not that insignificant. What's that famous Mark Twain saying? "A lie travels around the twice before the truth has a chance to put its pants on." Not calling that first review a lie but it was full of innacurate test results and conclusions. Bet less than half of those who read that one have seen the newest one.

Marantz is sending me an SR8015 to test and I will be looking at all aspects of legit real world HDMI test scenarios via my APX585 and HDMI source devices.

 

[roadwarrior]

Marantz is sending me an SR8015 to test and I will be looking at all aspects of legit real world HDMI test scenarios via my APX585 and HDMI source devices.

Thank you Gene. I appreciate your response and all that you do for the audio community.

 

[KEW]

... the narrative they still want to push over on ASR is that it was Denon's fault for the original bad measurements and subsequent public drubbing by their members due to the downmixing bug and not Amir's lack of review of his measurements before publishing. Someone even said his original review was right but it was just clouded by Denon's bug. Basically it was all Denon's fault. Reminds me of that Taylor Swift song "Look what you made me do!"

I'm inclined to think that after seeing high-dollar Arcam reviews accompanied by decapitated or dismembered panthers, then seeing the "lowly" $1100 Denon AVR-X3600H hand them their asses, there was a pent up demand for trash talking/bashing Denon among Arcam owner/fan boys! The first version of the AVR-X4700H review gave them an excuse to bash away (until the corrected review)!

Arcam AV40 processor @ $4500

Arcam AVR10 AVR @ $2500 (arm missing)

Denon AVR-X3600H @ $1100

 

[roadwarrior]

I'm inclined to think that after seeing high-dollar Arcam reviews accompanied by decapitated or dismembered panthers, then seeing the "lowly" $1100 Denon AVR-X3600H hand them their asses, there was a pent up demand for trash talking/bashing Denon among Arcam owner/fan boys! The first version of the AVR-X4700H review gave them an excuse to bash away (until the corrected review)!

Yeah, people do not like being told their really expensive boutique gear isn't what they think it is performance wise . Heck I didn't like being told a Denon similar to the one I paid only 675 dollars for wasn't what I believed their products to be, lol. Lots of tribalism involved in name brands. More so the higher in price you move up. You might be on to something.

 

[roadwarrior]

@KEW The other thing that irked me was the narrative being spun on ASR that somehow the 3600's measurements were somehow an anomaly and the 4700's was proof positive of an uncaring leaderless engineering team. Could just as easily be the reverse and seems now like it was. All manufactures still need constant vigilance though from their customers and third party testers like AH and ASR but believing someone other than yourself actually might care about their job as much as you do doesn't make you a sellout. You still do the tests and ask the tough questions. You can have accountability without being mean about it is what I'm getting at but mean feels better to lots of people.

 

[lovinthehd]

Folks - hopefully simple question for y'all.

Scenario: Using Roku to stream Netflix. Netflix content is 5.1
Set up: Denon AVR under question powering 2.0 speakers
Question: Does the identified 'bug' affect performance in this scenario?

If the answer to above question is 'yes performance is deteriorated' then how can it be claimed this will never occur in the real world? I am going to buy this receiver for primarily stereo music listening but it will also be used for streaming TV and movies. I would think a lot of folks have this similar set up.

Why wouldn't you just select the 2.0 soundtrack in the Netflix audio menu?

 

[Theoretical Pragmatist]

Why wouldn't you just select the 2.0 soundtrack in the Netflix audio menu?

Never knew that option existed - that's a good point!

 

[lovinthehd]

Never knew that option existed - that's a good point!

Sometimes when I pause or fast forward or rewind my Netflix 5.1 audio gets screwed up without a brief switch to the 2.0 soundtrack....otherwise if the 5.1 worked better I'd not know that!

 

[KEW]

It seems appropriate for this thread:
The review of the SR6014 is out:

Marantz SR6014 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz SR6014 Audio/Video Receiver. It was purchased new and kindly drop shipped to me. It costs US $1,500. The SR6014 looks just like all the other Marantz AV products: I must say, as iconic as the round display is, coming from testing...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The Panther is whole, but it is not a "recommend". I'm guessing the HDAM circuits are a kind of BS marketing "feature", but too late to read the review tonight!

Conclusions
Marantz takes one of the best AVRs we have tested, the Denon AVR-X3600H and reduces its performance into mediocrity in many areas. It seems that they are following audiophile fads, ignoring good engineering and proper audio research and science. I understand the need for differentiation but for heaven's sake, please don't sacrifice performance for it. Make the chassis out of gold or something. But please leave the active circuits alone. You have a good platform. Please don't ruin it this way.

Needless to say, I can't recommend the Marantz SR6104.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

"The Panther is whole, but it is not a "recommend". "


He's sending mixed messages. This is like dating all over again...

 

[PENG]

It seems appropriate for this thread:
The review of the SR6014 is out:

Marantz SR6014 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz SR6014 Audio/Video Receiver. It was purchased new and kindly drop shipped to me. It costs US $1,500. The SR6014 looks just like all the other Marantz AV products: I must say, as iconic as the round display is, coming from testing...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The Panther is whole, but it is not a "recommend". I'm guessing the HDAM circuits are a kind of BS marketing "feature", but too late to read the review tonight!

Actually, it got the Dongle, not the panther. It may be whole but look at where its located and the facial expression, iow its not there, only the Dongle is.

 

[PENG]

So my guess based on known results of the Denon AVRs and Marantz AVPs already tested, and logic, was correct, that HDAM adds distortions. Again, I don't believe the THD level as measured is audible. At between 0.01 and 0.05% THD, if one has the hearing of the normal 20 years old girl (I assume they hear better than boys) and in a very quiet room, it may be audible if playing tones, but for real world use I don't think so.

When I say "logic", I mean why would we expect it to measure better than the AV7705. It is already a nice surprise that it does measure slightly better than the AV7705 in some ways, and I actually find it hard to believe and can only guess the little difference could just be the statistical kind, I think, from the tolerances of certain parts, notably the volume control IC and the DAC to a lesser extent.