Denon AVR-4520ci has arrived and is installed.

RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
I figured the STANDBY indicator would come on if that were the case, but you never know.

However, they run so cool even after playing for hours, so it's no surprise they would be even cooler when nothing is playing.

I've been playing my Salon2/AVP/ATI for the last 2 hrs in Direct Mode 2.2 mode. My SPL reads 100dBC Max, average abut 85-90dBC.

Room temp 25C/78F, AVP 32C/90F, ATI3005 35C/95F (tip of thermometer touching top metal of AVP/ATI), which is actually hotter than I thought because they barely felt warm. I wonder if my thermometer is messed up. :D

Is 35C/95F degrees "barely warm"?
None of this sounds too surprising.
since 3db doubles the power you have to drive the power output to a certain level to generate heat.

To measure the ATI,I used a infrared thermometer to measure aiming a few inches in from each side to find the heat sink.

- Rich
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
None of this sounds too surprising.
since 3db doubles the power you have to drive the power output to a certain level to generate heat.

To measure the ATI,I used a infrared thermometer to measure aiming a few inches in from each side to find the heat sink.

- Rich
Yeah, I don't have an infrared thermometer. Mine is a cheap analog one. :eek:

Probably inaccurate. I'll look into getting an infrared one. :D

Okay, I just ordered a SainSonic SS5380 IR thermometer from Amazon to play with. :D
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I figured the STANDBY indicator would come on if that were the case, but you never know.

However, they run so cool even after playing for hours, so it's no surprise they would be even cooler when nothing is playing.

I've been playing my Salon2/AVP/ATI for the last 2 hrs in Direct Mode 2.2 mode. My SPL reads 100dBC Max, average abut 85-90dBC.

Room temp 25C/78F, AVP 32C/90F, ATI3005 35C/95F (tip of thermometer touching top metal of AVP/ATI), which is actually hotter than I thought because they barely felt warm. I wonder if my thermometer is messed up. :D

Is 35C/95F degrees "barely warm"?
Assuming the 100 dB max are short peaks, with average 85 to 90 dB, your amp would be pushing 5 to 7 watts say 6 watts. Compare to the AVP's rated power consumption of 2A, assuming at a power factor of 0.8, 120X2X0.8=192W, even if you assume in 2.2 direct mode most of the video circuits are turned off, it has got to be consuming at least 60 to 90W, so again, in your experiment with the ATI would have added about 2X6= 12W or a little bit more, to the "stop mode" consumption. Compare that to the AVP's consumption, I don't expect it would, or should run warmer than the prepro.

Your cheap thermometer should be quite accurate, probably more reliable than the infra red ones that varies a little with distance. The only problem is you cannot shoot right through the perforated enclosure onto the heat sink and some accessible hot spot that I did with my Infra red one. So whatever readings you obtained with the thermometer, if you were to shoot through with an Infra red one you quite likely would see 2 to 5C higher.

Your measured temperature of 35C is consistent with those I measured on the Adcom and Anthem 2 channel amp. Mines were around 31C on the top, 33.6 to 35C on the heat sinks, the Anthem being warmer, and it powered the L/R while the Adcom ran the center speaker. I did not play at the 85 db level, more than 70-75 average and 85 peak but that room was warm, at around 26C where the amps are. They are also sitting very close to the Kuro that produces tons of heat.

From what I can see, I can summarize my results as follow:

1. 2 ch power amps were expected to run cooler, and they did in my case. 32 to 33C when "ON", 2C higher when doing their job playing medium loud.
2. The MCH amp MM8003 ran warmer, similar to the prepro and AVR. 35 to 37C when just being "ON", 41 to 46 when doing its job at medium loud listening level.
3. The AVR-3805 ran warmer similar to the MM8003, would have been warmer though if it were sitting in the rack, but it was on a coffee table top.

Surveyor, yes all of the above are class A/B.

My two cents:

2 Channel power amps, even class A/B but not necessarily class A - generally have much more generous heat sinks and more room to breathe, so naturally they should run much cooler than MCH amps, prepros and AVRs, and last forever, like 20+ years. Bryston may be the only one I know that offers 20 year warranties but I am sure ATI and many other brands could have done the same, if they think that is a good marketing tactic.

AVRs/Prepros - Get a cheap PC fan, place it on top to suck if you want them to last. Or get an Onkyo if you prefer an internal fan, I absolutely do not.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Your cheap thermometer should be quite accurate, probably more reliable than the infra red ones that varies a little with distance. The only problem is you cannot shoot right through the perforated enclosure onto the heat sink and some accessible hot spot that I did with my Infra red one. So whatever readings you obtained with the thermometer, if you were to shoot through with an Infra red one you quite likely would see 2 to 5C higher.
Good point. I will try to aim the IR thermometer at the solid part of the enclosure and avoid the perforated sections.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
What is interesting here is that AVR's and PrePro's are more likely to have hot spots because they are not as robustly designed as an Amp.
In my setup, the amp itself does not get hot but it does increase of the ambient temperature seems to have a dramatic effect on the AV8801 that was above it.


BTW, I shipped the 3 month old AV8801 to United Radio on the 4'th, a required part now shows this ETA:
2SA1036K-S/R TR DN9Qty: 1Date Ordered: 5/8/2013ETA 05/30/13

<TBODY>
</TBODY>


Pardon me for thinking Marantz support sucks.

- Rich
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
What is interesting here is that AVR's and PrePro's are more likely to have hot spots because they are not as robustly designed as an Amp.
In my setup, the amp itself does not get hot but it does increase of the ambient temperature seems to have a dramatic effect on the AV8801 that was above it.


BTW, I shipped the 3 month old AV8801 to United Radio on the 4'th, a required part now shows this ETA:
2SA1036K-S/R TR DN9
Qty: 1
Date Ordered: 5/8/2013
ETA 05/30/13

<tbody>
</tbody>


Pardon me for thinking Marantz support sucks.

- Rich
You would think that they must have thousands of those transistors on hand. Yes it sucks to have to wait that long for something that cheap. I would definitely keep the fan on now to keep the outside temperature below 40C and hopeful no internal hot spots especially those around the power transistors well below their limits.
 
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Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
What is interesting here is that AVR's and PrePro's are more likely to have hot spots because they are not as robustly designed as an Amp.
In my setup, the amp itself does not get hot but it does increase of the ambient temperature seems to have a dramatic effect on the AV8801 that was above it.


BTW, I shipped the 3 month old AV8801 to United Radio on the 4'th, a required part now shows this ETA:
2SA1036K-S/R TR DN9
Qty: 1
Date Ordered: 5/8/2013
ETA 05/30/13

<tbody>
</tbody>


Pardon me for thinking Marantz support sucks.

- Rich
I was fortunate when my UD7007 went bad. I have 2 Marantz repair locations within 20 minuets driving distance. I had to get the drive replaced due to loud winding noises when I played some movies. Took 1 week turnaround.

If it unit is gone that long, they should give you a hot swap replacement at least until its fixed. That is why I like my Audio guy, he will give me loaners when my equipment goes bad and is being fixed.

Onkyo has internal fans? I don't think my Integra has an internal fan?
 
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RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
Marantz just heard from me ;)

I want them to send the part to United Radio immediately.
If they cannot, then send me a new unit, then they can take all the time they want.

Why should a Preamp that I had for 3 months require a one month repair?

- Rich
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I agree with Cos, you really should complain like crazy directly to Marantz not the dealer, and ask for a replacement. They must have a few in stock somewhere, it is not acceptable to use something for 3 months and then suffer a loss of use for a month.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
I agree with Cos, you really should complain like crazy directly to Marantz not the dealer, and ask for a replacement. They must have a few in stock somewhere, it is not acceptable to use something for 3 months and then suffer a loss of use for a month.
They just heard from me.
Another support person said, "Well it has not been a month yet".
I responded, so when I check the status on the 30'th will it now be June 16'th?

I firmly told them to get the part or provide a replacement and asked "Greg" the original support person to call me.

- Rich
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
They just heard from me.
Another support person said, "Well it has not been a month yet".
I responded, so when I check the status on the 30'th will it now be June 16'th?

I firmly told them to get the part or provide a replacement and asked "Greg" the original support person to call me.

- Rich
I think they will replace it, you just have to insist and elevate your complaint if they don't agree.
 
Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
My family always has me deal with problems like this, because I can be the nicest a-hole when dealing with companies:

Tips to help you get your way:
1. Always be calm when talking to the tech, as the probably can do nothing else other than give you the basic information
2. When you become frustrated, be nice but firm as use phases like: "If you were in my shoes and just spent 3k and it went bad in the first 90 days, wouldn't you be ticked off and demand a new unit?"
3. Politely state that you are not satisfied with their response and that it is unacceptable and ask to speak to ta supervisor or manager. If they say that person is not available, ask for that person's name, make sure you get last name if possible and then ask to be transferred to their voice mail or if they give you their email (usually they will not)
4. Always keep a date log of who you spoke with and what was discussed, while many companies keep records of phone calls, they are usually less than accurate

Why you want the persons name:
- See if they are on linkedin, this is great because you can send them a message, politely expressing your dissatisfaction with the way you warranty is being handled
- If not, you at least have their name, so next time you call ask to speak to that person directly and avoid general support.

I just did a general search of linkedin for Marantz and came up with not much, same for D(and)M, so not sure if it will work. I wouldn't settle for this type of service on a 3k unit.
While I am sure this may seem like common sense 101

On a side note, I am getting really ticked off that every time you use a & sign on this forum it links to amp then to emotiva. or if you even type in a word that has amp.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
In my setup, the amp itself does not get hot but it does increase of the ambient temperature seems to have a dramatic effect on the AV8801 that was above it.

- Rich
You may want to put the prepro else where. They run hot by themselves, anything that warms up the ambient would not help. Again, power amps are fine, as they have breathing room and have enough space for good size heat sinks. I am not even sure if prepros use heat sinks for the lower powered transistors, I hope the 8801s do.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
All this talk just makes me feel like the best thing is wait for the Denon X4000 to go on clearance for $650 (about a year later) and stock up a backup. :D

Why even spend more than that? Just get 2 @ $650 and keep one for backup. :D
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
You may want to put the prepro else where. They run hot by themselves, anything that warms up the ambient would not help. Again, power amps are fine, as they have breathing room and have enough space for good size heat sinks. I am not even sure if prepros use heat sinks for the lower powered transistors, I hope the 8801s do.
Every day that passes, I wonder if I should just get an HDMI switch and put it in front of the BDP-105 and call it a day.

- Rich
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
Thanks all,

I have also sent and email to Greg on the case.
Tomorrow, I will employ the COS method.

- Rich
 
surveyor

surveyor

Audioholic Chief
Your system already has redundancy ! You must be a wealthy corporate head? I'm jealous!
 
surveyor

surveyor

Audioholic Chief
What would the (recognizable)real advantage of purchasing a Denon Bluray player with Denon Link be, if used with my Denon AVR-4520ci. Would I get more bang for the buck with an Oppo high end Bluray player?
 

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