Definitive Technology Speakers - ARE THEY THAT GOOD?

[Joe Schmoe]

Good news for Def Tech fans

Vanns has started carrying the full Def Tech line.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Vanns has started carrying the full Def Tech line.

Unfortunately they are FULL RETAIL prices.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Unfortunately they are FULL RETAIL prices.

So show us where to get them on sale instead.

 

[GlocksRock]

At least they have free shipping, and they would be tax free... at least I think they would be tax free, I don't think I paid tax on my old Velodyne sub when I bought it from them.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So show us where to get them on sale instead.

http://digitalcraze.com/results8.asp?Manufacturer=definitive technology&Category=&StartItem=1&ItemsPage=all

One time I called Abt Electronics, and they price-matched digitalcraze.com prices on DefTechs.

http://www.abt.com/search/search.php?keywords=definitive+technology&image.x=27&image.y=5

Of course, I go to Ultimate Electronics (Memorial Rd or I-240) and they BEAT digitalcraze.com's prices. I got the CLR3000 for $700 + tax. I got the BP10Bs for $700 + tax. I got the BP7001SCs for $2,300 + tax. Trinity for $1,900 + tax. I got the BP7000SCs for $3,500 + tax.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Thanks. The only ones I was thinking of trying were the SM350s, though, which were shown at full price on one of those sites and not at all on the other. UE has never carried the SMs that I am aware of.

 

[Midcow2]

Did I do okay or not?

http://digitalcraze.com/results8.asp?Manufacturer=definitive technology&Category=&StartItem=1&ItemsPage=all

One time I called Abt Electronics, and they price-matched digitalcraze.com prices on DefTechs.

http://www.abt.com/search/search.php?keywords=definitive+technology&image.x=27&image.y=5

Of course, I go to Ultimate Electronics (Memorial Rd or I-240) and they BEAT digitalcraze.com's prices. I got the CLR3000 for $700 + tax. I got the BP10Bs for $700 + tax. I got the BP7001SCs for $2,300 + tax. Trinity for $1,900 + tax. I got the BP7000SCs for $3,500 + tax.

I used to live in Tulsa and they had an Ultimate Electronics whwich went out of business, now I think the only one left is in Oklahoma City. Anyway, I don't have an Ulitimate Electronics but I think I got a pretty good deal $2,500 for pair of BP7002s and a CLR3000. With the new prices a pair of BP7002s goes for $2,400 and a CLR goes for $1,100. The CLR3000 is on order and I can't wait until I can install it; it will be a significant upgrade over the ProCenter100. I was really pleased with the music from my previous BP2006s and the BP7002s add another level of clarity and brilliance. I have seen a lot of criticism on the Def Tech high end treble being overwhelming and them not having much "extra" bass unless LFE was set high. Actually, I have the speaker only connected via the normal speaker connectors and do not have a sub pre-out coming into the LFE and the addtional bass is pretty substantial. All I can say, is there may be better speakers at an equivalent price range but I am personally very, very satisfied with my recent choice. I have a very open den and the surrounds are in the ceiling, so in effect I have primarily a stereo system with center, sub and some surround enhancement.



YMMV,

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thanks. The only ones I was thinking of trying were the SM350s, though, which were shown at full price on one of those sites and not at all on the other. UE has never carried the SMs that I am aware of.

Joe, The UE on I-240 (salesman Jerry Derrickson , manager Cody ) will give me 30% off all "older model" DefTechs. The same with the SM450s when I bought them last year (which I sold later). I'm sure they will give you 30% OFF retail on the SM350s as well!

They just gave me $350 off on the new Denon DVD-3800BDCI (which I ordered 3 weeks ago and hopefully will be here next Tuesday).

PM me if you need my help. Jerry and Cody know I spent thousands $$ at their store.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...The CLR3000 is on order and I can't wait until I can install it; it will be a significant upgrade over the ProCenter100...I have seen a lot of criticism on the Def Tech high end treble being overwhelming and them not having much "extra" bass unless LFE was set high...

The CLR3000 is awesome. I have it set to 11 o'clock because I think anything above that is WAY TOO MUCH BASS. The dialoges coming from the CLR3000 are just so REAL and smooth.

You just can't please everyone because everyone is different. Some people like using tone controls (Treble & Bass) for this very reason. Some like to boost the treble and some like to decrease the treble.

In fact, the Rotel RC-1070 preamps use the "Contour" controls. And there are settings for 1) Increase Bass, 2) Increase Treble, & 3) Increase Treble & Bass, etc.

So there are also many people who like to increase the treble, just as there are many people who like to decrease the treble. You just can't please them all.

DefTech likes to keep the Bass + Treble @ +/-3dB, where the bass & treble are more at the +3dB. But technically speaking, humans cannot tell the difference in volume within the +/-3dB tolerance.

An ACCURATE speaker will have a frequency response from 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/-3dB. If the ORIGNAL recording has A LOT of TREBLE, then an accurate speaker will just simply play that without ALTERING the signal by DECREASING the Treble.

Other factors may change this, but an accurate speaker should simply play the original recording unaltered even if the original recording has too much treble.

I personally like to keep things as pure and unaltered as possible. This may be too "BRIGHT" and "IN-YOUR-FACE" for some people. I just call it more "DETAILED" and "REVEALING". Some people can disagree. Everyone is entitled to his opinion.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Joe, The UE on I-240 (salesman Jerry Derrickson , manager Cody ) will give me 30% off all "older model" DefTechs. The same with the SM450s when I bought them last year (which I sold later). I'm sure they will give you 30% OFF retail on the SM350s as well!

I have never seen the SMs (or any Def Tech bookshelves other than Mythos) at any UE store. I can't imagine them giving a discount on something that they have to special order.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have never seen the SMs (or any Def Tech bookshelves other than Mythos) at any UE store. I can't imagine them giving a discount on something that they have to special order.

Every single COMPONENT that I have ever bought from UE is a Special Order.

It generally takes 2-4 weeks for me to actually get those orders.

But that has never stopped UE from earning my business by giving me huge discounts. They realize that I could just easily buy online. They also realize that I may just keep on coming back to them for years to come and spend thousands $$ more. They also realize that I will give a lot of recommendations to other audiophiles about their store.

So, no, you may never ever see the SM350s at UE.

The bad thing about speacial orders is that you technically cannot RETURN them.

But I guess that did not stop me from returning my BP10Bs and my SECOND CLR3000 to the UE store in Edmond.

 

[avaserfi]

Lacking in vastly important information

DefTech likes to keep the Bass + Treble @ +/-3dB, where the bass & treble are more at the +3dB. But technically speaking, humans cannot tell the difference in volume within the +/-3dB tolerance.

A deviation of +/-3dB mean there can be a swing of up to 6dB in either direction. This large a swing would be audible especially at higher frequencies where the human ear is more sensitive. Also, it should be noted that peaks in frequency response have been found to be more audible than dips of equivalent magnitude[1].

[1] The Audibility of Frequency Response Irregularities. Bucklein, R. JAES. 1981.

An ACCURATE speaker will have a frequency response from 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/-3dB. If the ORIGNAL recording has A LOT of TREBLE, then an accurate speaker will just simply play that without ALTERING the signal by DECREASING the Treble.

This is an over generalization which does not include many other factors that determine accuracy from a speaker such as off-axis frequency response, power compression, cabinet resonance, driver resonance etc...I believe this has been said many times by me, but it seems to be ignored. Looking at frequency response tells you virtually nothing about how it will be perceived by an individual or its accuracy/quality.

Other factors may change this, but an accurate speaker should simply play the original recording unaltered even if the original recording has too much treble.

I personally like to keep things as pure and unaltered as possible. This may be too "BRIGHT" and "IN-YOUR-FACE" for some people. I just call it more "DETAILED" and "REVEALING". Some people can disagree. Everyone is entitled to his opinion.

If you like unaltered sound then nearly ever speaker in existence is not your cup of tea. Every Def Tech speaker of which I am aware has substantial cabinet resonance issues which will drastically alter actual frequency response which, again, cannot me measured through a simple on-axis near or far field anechoic plot.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

A deviation of +/-3dB mean there can be a swing of up to 6dB in either direction.

No it doesn't. It means there can be a total deviation of 6dB from maximum to minimum. There can only be a swing of 3dB in either direction from average, exactly as the spec says.

 

[avaserfi]

No it doesn't. It means there can be a total deviation of 6dB from maximum to minimum. There can only be a swing of 3dB in either direction from average, exactly as the spec says.

Perhaps I did not make myself clear enough, if a peak and a null occur one after the other the total difference is 6dB which would be audible in certain circumstances. Directionality, as previously stated, can occur if the peak is first or the null is first in this run hence my statement.

In any case even a 3dB peak and/or null are audible in certain frequencies.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A deviation of +/-3dB mean there can be a swing of up to 6dB in either direction. This large a swing would be audible especially at higher frequencies where the human ear is more sensitive. Also, it should be noted that peaks in frequency response have been found to be more audible than dips of equivalent magnitude.

You mean if the curve swings abruptly, right?

Like from +3dB @ 1kHz to +0dB @ 2kHz to -3dB @ 3kHz?

But if the curve is @ +3dB from 2 kHz - 10 kHz, then to +2dB from 10 khz - 14 kHz, then +1dB from 14 kHz-16kHz, then +2dB from 16kHz-18khz, then +3dB from 18kHz-20kHz, would there be an audible difference if the on-axis and off-axis were very similar?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...Every Def Tech speaker of which I am aware has substantial cabinet resonance issues...

How do they measure cabinet resonance?

Is there a graph that would show the resonance?

 

[avaserfi]

You mean if the curve swings abruptly, right?

Yes

Like from +3dB @ 1kHz to +0dB @ 2kHz to -3dB @ 3kHz?

Perhaps, or something more or less extreme. One issue with relying on a simple spec such as 20Hz-20kHz +/-3dB is you have no idea how severe or common the swings are. Two speakers with such specifications could be drastically different in on-axis frequency response. For example, I have seen measurements of speakers rated in this manner where had a -3dB point at its F3 where the other had wild swings throughout the midrange yet both speakers were in the same price class and would sound vastly different all other factors held equal (which was not the case).

But if the curve is @ +3dB from 2 kHz - 10 kHz, then to +2dB from 10 khz - 14 kHz, then +1dB from 14 kHz-16kHz, then +2dB from 16kHz-18khz, then +3dB from 18kHz-20kHz, would there be an audible difference if the on-axis and off-axis were very similar?

I cannot say specifically if there would be an audible difference on-axis with these specific numbers. This would depend on a variety of other factors as well. It should be noted that virtually no speakers, both commercial and DIY, contain closely matching off-axis response in the upper octaves.

How do they measure cabinet resonance?

Is there a graph that would show the resonance?

There are two ways to measure cabinet resonance with one being far easier than the other. The first, and easiest, is to use a tool called an accelerometer. This the method Stereophile employs in their measurements and gives one a good idea of the resonance that will occur if using a specific speaker in certain bandwidths.

If one wants to actually see the effect of resonance on frequency response a far more time consuming method need be used. One would have to take multiple, far-field, impulse response measurements at varying angles in an anechoic chamber then derive a waterfall. The resulting CSD will contain resonance information and its effect on frequency response i.e., coloration created by this phenomenon.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Every Def Tech speaker of which I am aware has substantial cabinet resonance issues.

In that case, you must not be aware of any. Their cabinets are extremely solid and well built. Minimizing cabinet resonance is one of their design goals and, just like their other design goals, they achieved it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In that case, you must not be aware of any. Their cabinets are extremely solid and well built. Minimizing cabinet resonance is one of their design goals and, just like their other design goals, they achieved it.

I've read a bunch of DefTech reviews from Home Theater Mag, Sound & Vision/Stereo Review, Ultimate AV Mag, Audio-Video Revolution, and one from The Audio Critic. Pretty much all of them say that DefTech speakers have great build quality. I assume that to have great build quality, there must not be much cabinet resonance issues?

In fact, Home Theater Mag gave the BP7000SCs the same build quality as the Paradigm Reference Signature S8.

BP7000SC: 96
Paradigm: 96
B&W 803D: 98

If cabinet resonance is a major issue, wouldn't build quality also be an issue?

 

[Midcow2]

There can be two resonance factors

If cabinet resonance is a major issue, wouldn't build quality also be an issue?

You are making an assumption that resonance is purely associated with build quality. Build quality and the firmness of the speaker enclosure is one resonance factor. However, a second resoance factor is the actual speaker and the shape of the speaker cavity. if the cabinet is such that the damping does not attentuate properly.