Debating switching from Yamaha to NAD

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I considered the MiniDSP, but it's only useful for subwoofers
And that's why I prefer the Modular Monitor/Subwoofer system. :D

The reason many audio experts believe we should NOT EQ the midrange and treble is because good speakers usually sound pretty great in the midrange and treble.

But many of us need help in the bass region -- not necessarily to flatten the bass response, but to get the Preferred Bass Sound.

That's why I think the bass needs to be treated like a "separates" -- it needs special attention.

Perhaps later on you could add a subwoofer. Then you could set the towers to Small and let the subwoofer handle all the bass.

For me, a 4-band Subwoofer PEQ is enough for adjusting the 20Hz-100Hz region.
 
S

sakete

Audioholic
Alright, so NAD + Dirac is one thing, but perhaps a bit overpriced for what you get. Denon + Audyssey XT32 another. Do you guys think Anthem + AARC is worth the cost?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
And that's why I prefer the Modular Monitor/Subwoofer system. :D

The reason many audio experts believe we should NOT EQ the midrange and treble is because good speakers usually sound pretty great in the midrange and treble.

But many of us need help in the bass region -- not necessarily to flatten the bass response, but to get the Preferred Bass Sound.

That's why I think the bass needs to be treated like a "separates" -- it needs special attention.

Perhaps later on you could add a subwoofer. Then you could set the towers to Small and let the subwoofer handle all the bass.

For me, a 4-band Subwoofer PEQ is enough for adjusting the 20Hz-100Hz region.
Is the RX-A/CX-A YPAO manual PEQ continuously adjustable by frequency (for example, any freq between 15 Hz and 20 kHz), or only at X number of frequency points?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Alright, so NAD + Dirac is one thing, but perhaps a bit overpriced for what you get. Denon + Audyssey XT32 another. Do you guys think Anthem + AARC is worth the cost?
Nope, they sell a fraction of the volume of the popular brands such as Yamaha, Pioneer, Onkyo, D&M, so their production would be understandably high, and that has to be passed on to the buyers. Poor $ per watt, per features/parts quality etc.. I don't mind their amps though, and that's where they don't suffer nearly as much in terms of cost efficiency.
 
S

sakete

Audioholic
Funny, I just called the dealer I bought the A2070 from and he almost talked me out of returning the A2070. His opinion was that I really won't gain that much going from YPAO to Audyssey or Dirac/AARC. To the point where now I'm considering if I should just stick with what I have (and save a ton of money in the process), and maybe still just try the REW + Manual PEQ approach? I don't know...
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Is the RX-A/CX-A YPAO manual PEQ continuously adjustable by frequency (for example, any freq between 15 Hz and 20 kHz),or only at X number of frequency points?
Frequencies you can choose for each of the 7 Bands: 15.6 Hz, 19.7, 24.8, 31.3, 39.4, 49.6, 62.5, 78.7, 99.2, 125 Hz, 157.5 Hz, 198.4 Hz, 250 Hz, 315.0 Hz, 396.9 Hz, 500.0 Hz, 630.0 Hz, 793.7 Hz, 1.0 kHz, 1.26 kHz, 1.59 kHz, 2.0 kHz, 2.52 kHz, 3.17 kHz, 4.0 kHz, 5.04 kHz, 6.35 kHz, 8.0 kHz, 10.1 kHz, 12.7 kHz, 16.0 kHz

Q Values you can choose for each Band: 0.5, 0.63, 0.794, 1.0, 1.26, 1.587, 2.0, 2.52, 3.175, 4.0, 5.04, 6.35, 8.0, 10.08

Gain (0.5 dB increments) you can choose for each Band: -20.0 to +6.0 dB
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Funny, I just called the dealer I bought the A2070 from and he almost talked me out of returning the A2070. His opinion was that I really won't gain that much going from YPAO to Audyssey or Dirac/AARC. To the point where now I'm considering if I should just stick with what I have (and save a ton of money in the process), and maybe still just try the REW + Manual PEQ approach? I don't know...
Whether you end up with Dirac or Audyssey or whatever, you MUST confirm it with REW anyway!

So might as well get your feet wet and pay that $92 on Amazon for UMIK-1.

If you cannot get YPAO + PEQ to get the response you want, then move on.

After trying my initial REW + PEQ, I am convinced that you can achieve a flat response if you take your TIME.

Also try to do what Gene did - run YPAO. Then run REW. Choose the YPAO that has the best REW response. Then Copy to PEQ and adjust only the frequencies that have the peaks/troughs. I would keep the Q-value that YPAO used initially, but may experiment if you cannot get the response you want.
 
J

JStewart

Enthusiast
How well would you say the NAD is at projecting a center dialog image when not having a physical center channel?
Never tried it. Sorry. I wouldn’t expect the NAD to improve things though. I’d expect a solid image in the mlp and outside that speaker and setup dependent.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Frequencies you can choose for each of the 7 Bands: 15.6 Hz, 19.7, 24.8, 31.3, 39.4, 49.6, 62.5, 78.7, 99.2, 125 Hz, 157.5 Hz, 198.4 Hz, 250 Hz, 315.0 Hz, 396.9 Hz, 500.0 Hz, 630.0 Hz, 793.7 Hz, 1.0 kHz, 1.26 kHz, 1.59 kHz, 2.0 kHz, 2.52 kHz, 3.17 kHz, 4.0 kHz, 5.04 kHz, 6.35 kHz, 8.0 kHz, 10.1 kHz, 12.7 kHz, 16.0 kHz

Q Values you can choose for each Band: 0.5, 0.63, 0.794, 1.0, 1.26, 1.587, 2.0, 2.52, 3.175, 4.0, 5.04, 6.35, 8.0, 10.08

Gain (0.5 dB increments) you can choose for each Band: -20.0 to +6.0 dB
I know "continuous" is not going to be :D, but 13 selectable freq points from 16 to 250 Hz is very impressive. Now I am confident if someone take the time to do enough trial and error, using YPAO curve as the starting point and confirmed the results frequently with REW, the end results can give the PEQ based Anthem ARC a good run for the money.
 
S

sakete

Audioholic
Whether you end up with Dirac or Audyssey or whatever, you MUST confirm it with REW anyway!

So might as well get your feet wet and pay that $92 on Amazon for UMIK-1.

If you cannot get YPAO + PEQ to get the response you want, then move on.

After trying my initial REW + PEQ, I am convinced that you can achieve a flat response if you take your TIME.

Also try to do what Gene did - run YPAO. Then run REW. Choose the YPAO that has the best REW response. Then Copy to PEQ and adjust only the frequencies that have the peaks/troughs. I would keep the Q-value that YPAO used initially, but may experiment if you cannot get the response you want.
Yeah, just ordered the UMIK-1. For the Yammie, my return window closes on Sunday, which is why I'm now trying to make up my mind. I guess I wish I would've had this thought sooner so I could first see if I could get the sound I want :) decisions, decisions...

I think what I'll do is submit an RMA tomorrow for the Yamaha. Once approved I have 5 days to ship it back. Over the weekend I'll play with YPAO and REW+UMIK a bit more to see if I can get a curve I like. If I can, I'll keep the Yamaha and cancel the return. If I can't, I'll get something else.
 
S

sakete

Audioholic
I know "continuous" is not going to be :D, but 13 selectable freq points from 16 to 250 Hz is very impressive. Now I am confident if someone take the time to do enough trial and error, using YPAO curve as the starting point and confirmed the results frequently with REW, the end results can give the PEQ based Anthem ARC a good run for the money.
there are 13 selectable points, but only 4 filters you can use them with. Yamaha in total has 7 Manual PEQ filters, and 3 are reserved for 500Hz and higher (you can't force those 3 to go lower). So you can only use 4 filters to set your low-freq curve. I guess for some rooms that may not be enough.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
there are 13 selectable points, but only 4 filters you can use them with. Yamaha in total has 7 Manual PEQ filters, and 3 are reserved for 500Hz and higher (you can't force those 3 to go lower). So you can only use 4 filters to set your low-freq curve. I guess for some rooms that may not be enough.
If you copy the curve from YPAO, then move the sub(s) inch by by inch until you get the best results possible, you may end up needing only 2, 3, or 4 anyway. Remember you can't really do much about the big dips, so just focus on leveling the peaks first and go from there.
 
S

sakete

Audioholic
If you copy the curve from YPAO, then move the sub(s) inch by by inch until you get the best results possible, you may end up needing only 2, 3, or 4 anyway. Remember you can't really do much about the big dips, so just focus on leveling the peaks first and go from there.
Yeah, for now I'll only be applying them to my 2 main L/R speakers, as I don't have a sub yet. If I had a sub, I'd definitely go the miniDSP route (and when I do end up getting a sub, I will get a miniDSP with it). My speakers are rated down to 42hz at -3db and 36hz at -6db, so most of the time it gives me plenty of low-end response (I mainly listen to music anyway, movies are more of an occasional thing).

Otherwise, just heard back from NAD and they confirmed that for Dirac in multi-channel setup, they downsample the signal to 48khz, but can handle 192khz for 2 channel setups.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, just ordered the UMIK-1. For the Yammie, my return window closes on Sunday, which is why I'm now trying to make up my mind. I guess I wish I would've had this thought sooner so I could first see if I could get the sound I want :) decisions, decisions...

I think what I'll do is submit an RMA tomorrow for the Yamaha. Once approved I have 5 days to ship it back. Over the weekend I'll play with YPAO and REW+UMIK a bit more to see if I can get a curve I like. If I can, I'll keep the Yamaha and cancel the return. If I can't, I'll get something else.
Good plan.

Either way (Yamaha or NAD or something else), you will confirm for sure the in-Room Response.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I know "continuous" is not going to be :D, but 13 selectable freq points from 16 to 250 Hz is very impressive. Now I am confident if someone take the time to do enough trial and error, using YPAO curve as the starting point and confirmed the results frequently with REW, the end results can give the PEQ based Anthem ARC a good run for the money.
I should have a lot more time in about 2 weeks to play with REW again. :D

I will redo YPAO, then run REW for each curve. Then copy the best YPAO curve to PEQ. And then experiment with PEQ + REW.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
NAD confirmed that for Dirac in multi-channel setup, they downsample the signal to 48khz, but can handle 192khz for 2 channel setups.
That’s pretty what Gene said - everyone down-samples for Room EQ except for Yamaha (even their cheap Avantage AVR doesn’t down-sample).

You win some, you lose some, I guess.

It would be a win-win if you could get YPAO + PEQ + REW to give you a response of +/-3dB —— unless you’re aiming for +/-2dB. :D
 
S

sakete

Audioholic
That’s pretty what Gene said - everyone down-samples for Room EQ except for Yamaha (even their cheap Avantage AVR doesn’t down-sample).

You win some, you lose some, I guess.

It would be a win-win if you could get YPAO + PEQ + REW to give you a response of +/-3dB —— unless you’re aiming for +/-2dB. :D
A response of +/- 3dB should be good enough :)
 

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